So I'm new to precision rifles. I just picked up my first LR rifle the other day. The guy was selling it b/c he couldn't get the velocities he wanted, he needed something to shoot further then he could with that rifle. It's a Rem 700 SPS action with a LTR 20" barrel 1:12 twist. He was shooting 168 grn Sierra matchkings with varget and 4064 mostly. He said that the rifle was keyholing at 650 yards. He had the barrel threaded and installed a badger ordnance muzzle brake (the keyholing started after this I believe). He said that he regretted doing so b/c the reduced pressures made him lose velocity. I'd like to get some advice from some experienced guys out there on how to possibly fix this problem. Ideally, I'd like to get 800 yards out of this rifle, is that possible? Could it be the muzzle brake causing this problem? Or a bad thread job? Or does it just need different loads? He said he didn't work up new loads after installing the brake, he just recently put it on there before he sold it. Also, I do not reload (yet), so any advice on ammo to try should be factory for now. Like I said I'm new to precision rifles, so please explain things as such. In my uneducated opinion, I don't think the round should be destabilizing at 650, even with a 20" barrel and such a slow twist rate. Please help!
- Thread starter ArmedGringo
- Start date
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
try factory loads with and without the break, report back after that test, see what the gun is doing yourself and not just what you were told(not being a dick). Could be ole boy doesnt know what he's doing with his reloads, could be shitty threading job, hard to say.
try factory loads with and without the break, report back after that test, see what the gun is doing yourself and not just what you were told(not being a dick). Could be ole boy doesnt know what he's doing with his reloads, could be shitty threading job, hard to say.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try factory loads with and without the break, report back after that test, see what the gun is doing yourself and not just what you were told(not being a dick). Could be ole boy doesnt know what he's doing with his reloads, could be shitty threading job, hard to say.</div></div>
This
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">try factory loads with and without the break, report back after that test, see what the gun is doing yourself and not just what you were told(not being a dick). Could be ole boy doesnt know what he's doing with his reloads, could be shitty threading job, hard to say.</div></div>
This
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
how did threading the barrel and adding a brake make it lose velocity?
have you actually fired the rifle?
it sounds like the asshole you bought it off of has no clue what he's talking about or flat out lied...
is this a pieced together rifle...
my advise is to have a gunsmith check to make sure the rifle is safe, if it's safe, shoot some FGMM 175s and see how it shoots
how did threading the barrel and adding a brake make it lose velocity?
have you actually fired the rifle?
it sounds like the asshole you bought it off of has no clue what he's talking about or flat out lied...
is this a pieced together rifle...
my advise is to have a gunsmith check to make sure the rifle is safe, if it's safe, shoot some FGMM 175s and see how it shoots
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
First the Sierra 168 is not the best choice for long range shooting. Depending on how far you want to go the Sierra 175 is a much better choice. IMR 4064 is a very good powder for this bullet.
Second, I would check the barrel twist to make sure you know what it really is. I see no reason a factory .308 would be keyholing at 650 yds. Adding a muzzle break should not alter your velocity, and if properly done should not affect accuracy. If there is a keyholing problem it lies in the barrel but not the break.
Sounds to me your seller was not really up on shooting as you state he claimed the addition of the break kept him from getting the velocities he wanted. And a 12 twist in a 30 cal. is not considered a slow twist. It should handle most bullets up to the 190's. As for ammo stay away from the 168's for anything past 300 or so yards. Not saying they won't do the job, it's just that there are better choices.
First the Sierra 168 is not the best choice for long range shooting. Depending on how far you want to go the Sierra 175 is a much better choice. IMR 4064 is a very good powder for this bullet.
Second, I would check the barrel twist to make sure you know what it really is. I see no reason a factory .308 would be keyholing at 650 yds. Adding a muzzle break should not alter your velocity, and if properly done should not affect accuracy. If there is a keyholing problem it lies in the barrel but not the break.
Sounds to me your seller was not really up on shooting as you state he claimed the addition of the break kept him from getting the velocities he wanted. And a 12 twist in a 30 cal. is not considered a slow twist. It should handle most bullets up to the 190's. As for ammo stay away from the 168's for anything past 300 or so yards. Not saying they won't do the job, it's just that there are better choices.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
+1 one for get factory ammo and test it for yourself...there may be no issue at all...if you can't get it to shoot with the break on...take it off and see what happens...just make sure you check your zero when you remove the break before going down range with it...it will change yoru point of impact most of the time
+1 one for get factory ammo and test it for yourself...there may be no issue at all...if you can't get it to shoot with the break on...take it off and see what happens...just make sure you check your zero when you remove the break before going down range with it...it will change yoru point of impact most of the time
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
I don't know why it would decrease velocity either. That's why I wanted to know what people on here thought, like I said I'm new to this. No I haven't fired it yet, he kept the scope so I'm shopping for one currently. Just wanted to get a head start on what the issue might be before I get it to the range. Yes it is a piece together. He had one of the scope mounting holes stripped out, so it is at the gunsmith right now getting retapped, I will call and have him check out the thread job as well.
I don't know why it would decrease velocity either. That's why I wanted to know what people on here thought, like I said I'm new to this. No I haven't fired it yet, he kept the scope so I'm shopping for one currently. Just wanted to get a head start on what the issue might be before I get it to the range. Yes it is a piece together. He had one of the scope mounting holes stripped out, so it is at the gunsmith right now getting retapped, I will call and have him check out the thread job as well.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
Will I need to get a thread protector to put on there to shoot without the brake?
Will I need to get a thread protector to put on there to shoot without the brake?
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will I need to get a thread protector to put on there to shoot without the brake?</div></div>
yes, without the thread protector the threads will fall off
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will I need to get a thread protector to put on there to shoot without the brake?</div></div>
yes, without the thread protector the threads will fall off
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
My take on it is - whoever threaded the barrel & installed the brake fubar'd it. It may not be 100% concentric to the bore of the rifle and you're getting bullet strikes on the brake?
AvsFan
My take on it is - whoever threaded the barrel & installed the brake fubar'd it. It may not be 100% concentric to the bore of the rifle and you're getting bullet strikes on the brake?
AvsFan
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
Take a look at the end of the Barrel/Muzzle Brake. Do you see any scrape marks from the bullet striking the sides of the Brake or Muzzle? Do you see excessive copper fouling in the rifling?
Take a picture of the Crown and/or Muzzle brake from the front/exit hole. This will help diagnose the issue.
Take a look at the end of the Barrel/Muzzle Brake. Do you see any scrape marks from the bullet striking the sides of the Brake or Muzzle? Do you see excessive copper fouling in the rifling?
Take a picture of the Crown and/or Muzzle brake from the front/exit hole. This will help diagnose the issue.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
It is at the gunsmiths right now for something else...but I'm going to call him up tomorrow and have him inspect the thread job as well
It is at the gunsmiths right now for something else...but I'm going to call him up tomorrow and have him inspect the thread job as well
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
Like others have said go get some factory ammo and test it with and without the brake.
I would also look at the brake to see if you see any signs of possible bullet impacts on it. The brake will not reduce the muzzle velocity.
Also, 175 gr projectiles are better than the 168 as the .308 round begins to go from transonic to subsonic. On your LTR, that range should be well past 650 yards. By brother-in-law had an LTR that we would shoot at 1000 and we did not notice degradation in accuracy like you are describing.
Like others have said go get some factory ammo and test it with and without the brake.
I would also look at the brake to see if you see any signs of possible bullet impacts on it. The brake will not reduce the muzzle velocity.
Also, 175 gr projectiles are better than the 168 as the .308 round begins to go from transonic to subsonic. On your LTR, that range should be well past 650 yards. By brother-in-law had an LTR that we would shoot at 1000 and we did not notice degradation in accuracy like you are describing.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....He said that the rifle was keyholing at 650 yards. He had the barrel threaded and installed a badger ordnance muzzle brake (the keyholing started after this I believe). He said that he regretted doing so b/c the reduced pressures made him lose velocity.....</div></div>
I get a few things from this info,
- Likely some hack posing as a gunsmith did the brake job.
- Your friend doesn't have a clue about internal ballistics.
- Ammo is suspect, if loaded by your friend.
You might be getting bullet contact with the brake. A REAL gunsmith should be able to inspect the rifle and get you going in the right direction. Then try some FGMM 175gr for a baseline test.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....He said that the rifle was keyholing at 650 yards. He had the barrel threaded and installed a badger ordnance muzzle brake (the keyholing started after this I believe). He said that he regretted doing so b/c the reduced pressures made him lose velocity.....</div></div>
I get a few things from this info,
- Likely some hack posing as a gunsmith did the brake job.
- Your friend doesn't have a clue about internal ballistics.
- Ammo is suspect, if loaded by your friend.
You might be getting bullet contact with the brake. A REAL gunsmith should be able to inspect the rifle and get you going in the right direction. Then try some FGMM 175gr for a baseline test.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
Keyholing at 650 with a stock LTR 20"? This statement alone would make me question the guy's integrity. I had to spend a lot of money with APA for a rifle that does that and 90% of the time, the rifle is capable but I am not. And like previously stated, threading and break will NOT decrease velocity. Sounds like the guy picked up on the fact that you are new to the game and took advantage. Chances are with a fresh crown, bedding and good optics, you'll probably be able to get the accuracy you want out of the gun. If not, you can build the hell out of it later.
Keyholing at 650 with a stock LTR 20"? This statement alone would make me question the guy's integrity. I had to spend a lot of money with APA for a rifle that does that and 90% of the time, the rifle is capable but I am not. And like previously stated, threading and break will NOT decrease velocity. Sounds like the guy picked up on the fact that you are new to the game and took advantage. Chances are with a fresh crown, bedding and good optics, you'll probably be able to get the accuracy you want out of the gun. If not, you can build the hell out of it later.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JudasMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keyholing at 650 with a stock LTR 20"? This statement alone would make me question the guy's integrity. I had to spend a lot of money with APA for a rifle that does that and 90% of the time, the rifle is capable but I am not. And like previously stated, threading and break will NOT decrease velocity. Sounds like the guy picked up on the fact that you are new to the game and took advantage. Chances are with a fresh crown, bedding and good optics, you'll probably be able to get the accuracy you want out of the gun. If not, you can build the hell out of it later. </div></div>
Keyholing is a bad thing...not "bugholing" which is what your APA does and is the good term
Wow that all sounds really gay eitherway...LOL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JudasMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keyholing at 650 with a stock LTR 20"? This statement alone would make me question the guy's integrity. I had to spend a lot of money with APA for a rifle that does that and 90% of the time, the rifle is capable but I am not. And like previously stated, threading and break will NOT decrease velocity. Sounds like the guy picked up on the fact that you are new to the game and took advantage. Chances are with a fresh crown, bedding and good optics, you'll probably be able to get the accuracy you want out of the gun. If not, you can build the hell out of it later. </div></div>
Keyholing is a bad thing...not "bugholing" which is what your APA does and is the good term
Wow that all sounds really gay eitherway...LOL
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will I need to get a thread protector to put on there to shoot without the brake?</div></div>
yes, without the thread protector the threads will fall off </div></div>
LoL...ArmedGringo just in case you didn't realize it because your new, this is a joke. Pretty funny too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VJJPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will I need to get a thread protector to put on there to shoot without the brake?</div></div>
yes, without the thread protector the threads will fall off </div></div>
LoL...ArmedGringo just in case you didn't realize it because your new, this is a joke. Pretty funny too.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
lol yes I got it
lol yes I got it
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
it has an hs precision stock with the aluminum bedding block...do you think it is still necessary to have it bedded?
it has an hs precision stock with the aluminum bedding block...do you think it is still necessary to have it bedded?
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JudasMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keyholing at 650 with a stock LTR 20"? This statement alone would make me question the guy's integrity. I had to spend a lot of money with APA for a rifle that does that and 90% of the time, the rifle is capable but I am not. </div></div>
Yah, you're not on the same page as us.
Keyholing is where the bullet strikes the target sideways. Named so because of the very not round holes it leaves in targets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JudasMac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keyholing at 650 with a stock LTR 20"? This statement alone would make me question the guy's integrity. I had to spend a lot of money with APA for a rifle that does that and 90% of the time, the rifle is capable but I am not. </div></div>
Yah, you're not on the same page as us.
Keyholing is where the bullet strikes the target sideways. Named so because of the very not round holes it leaves in targets.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it has an hs precision stock with the aluminum bedding block...do you think it is still necessary to have it bedded? </div></div>
Necessary, no. Certainly not what is causing the problem anyway.
Once the primary problem is figured out, skim bedding an aluminum bedding block rifle doesn't hurt anything and MIGHT improve it's inherent accuracy. Even in an aluminum bedding block, the contact with the receiver won't be perfect and perfectly repeatable. Skim bedding makes it a perfect fit. However, the HS precision stock is a very good stock as is and the rifle (once the problem causing it to keyhole is fixed) and stock combo will outshoot you for a LONG while to come.
Check out the thread on do it yourself bedding in the gunsmithing forum, it's scary at first but actually a pretty easy thing to do yourself if you're careful, do your homework and follow the tutorial.
Personally, if you're new to long range and with that rifle, I'd make the following investments in this order.
1) Get the problem that's causing the keyholing fixed with your gunsmith
2) Get decent glass (if you're on a budget, check out the Super Sniper line of scopes on SWFA's website) and mount it with a decent set of rings and base.
4) Enroll in the online training here on the hide
5) Build up your stock comb's height with some 100 MPH tape and foam OR buy a Karsten cheek rest
6) Buy a case of Black Hills or FGMM 175 match ammo and start shooting
7) Invest in a new trigger
8) Buy another case of ammo and keep shooting
9) Invest in a reloading set up (they make entry level kits that are quite good and not too much)
10) THEN consider different stocks based on what fits your body, what you like (assuming you've gotten to be buddies with some folks on the firing line and have gotten a chance to try some out) and if you want to keep the HS stock bed it.
11) When you can consistently group to the rifle's potential, consider getting your action and bolt trued. By then you're probably needing a new barrel, so order the best you can afford.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it has an hs precision stock with the aluminum bedding block...do you think it is still necessary to have it bedded? </div></div>
Necessary, no. Certainly not what is causing the problem anyway.
Once the primary problem is figured out, skim bedding an aluminum bedding block rifle doesn't hurt anything and MIGHT improve it's inherent accuracy. Even in an aluminum bedding block, the contact with the receiver won't be perfect and perfectly repeatable. Skim bedding makes it a perfect fit. However, the HS precision stock is a very good stock as is and the rifle (once the problem causing it to keyhole is fixed) and stock combo will outshoot you for a LONG while to come.
Check out the thread on do it yourself bedding in the gunsmithing forum, it's scary at first but actually a pretty easy thing to do yourself if you're careful, do your homework and follow the tutorial.
Personally, if you're new to long range and with that rifle, I'd make the following investments in this order.
1) Get the problem that's causing the keyholing fixed with your gunsmith
2) Get decent glass (if you're on a budget, check out the Super Sniper line of scopes on SWFA's website) and mount it with a decent set of rings and base.
4) Enroll in the online training here on the hide
5) Build up your stock comb's height with some 100 MPH tape and foam OR buy a Karsten cheek rest
6) Buy a case of Black Hills or FGMM 175 match ammo and start shooting
7) Invest in a new trigger
8) Buy another case of ammo and keep shooting
9) Invest in a reloading set up (they make entry level kits that are quite good and not too much)
10) THEN consider different stocks based on what fits your body, what you like (assuming you've gotten to be buddies with some folks on the firing line and have gotten a chance to try some out) and if you want to keep the HS stock bed it.
11) When you can consistently group to the rifle's potential, consider getting your action and bolt trued. By then you're probably needing a new barrel, so order the best you can afford.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
I would say inspect you brake to make make sure the bullet isn't contacting the sides, if the threads weren't cut properly itis entirely feasible that the bullet may be skimming the brake causing destabilization.
I would say inspect you brake to make make sure the bullet isn't contacting the sides, if the threads weren't cut properly itis entirely feasible that the bullet may be skimming the brake causing destabilization.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
I was actually thinking about a Millet...what are your thoughts on those? Not looking to spend over 8 or 9 hundred. I'm just starting to get my feet wet so I'm not looking into a nightforce or anything along those lines. Also, any recommendations on which model would be a big help too. As for the trigger, it's already at 2 lbs crisp. What all do you learn with the online training?
I was actually thinking about a Millet...what are your thoughts on those? Not looking to spend over 8 or 9 hundred. I'm just starting to get my feet wet so I'm not looking into a nightforce or anything along those lines. Also, any recommendations on which model would be a big help too. As for the trigger, it's already at 2 lbs crisp. What all do you learn with the online training?
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was actually thinking about a Millet...what are your thoughts on those? Not looking to spend over 8 or 9 hundred. I'm just starting to get my feet wet so I'm not looking into a nightforce or anything along those lines. Also, any recommendations on which model would be a big help too. As for the trigger, it's already at 2 lbs crisp. What all do you learn with the online training? </div></div>
If you can spend 8-900 my strong suggestion would be a Vortex PST 4-16x50 and stay away from the Millet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmedGringo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was actually thinking about a Millet...what are your thoughts on those? Not looking to spend over 8 or 9 hundred. I'm just starting to get my feet wet so I'm not looking into a nightforce or anything along those lines. Also, any recommendations on which model would be a big help too. As for the trigger, it's already at 2 lbs crisp. What all do you learn with the online training? </div></div>
If you can spend 8-900 my strong suggestion would be a Vortex PST 4-16x50 and stay away from the Millet.
Re: .308 keyholing...newb needs some advice
I have to disagree,the Millett is a fine scope to start with. I have one on a SPS Tactical, it holds zero and is repeatable. It has a lifetime warranty if it breaks send it back for a new one.
I have to disagree,the Millett is a fine scope to start with. I have one on a SPS Tactical, it holds zero and is repeatable. It has a lifetime warranty if it breaks send it back for a new one.
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