Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

[Valere]

Today I noticed after FL resizing FGMM .308 Win once fired brass in a brand new Redding standard FL die, there is a very slight bend in the case neck where is connects to the shoulder which is almost unnoticeable until I seat a bullet and let the cartridge roll on a flat surface, then the oscillation is rather obvious in about 13 of 22 rounds. At the range yesterday with these reloads (178 A-Max seated .02 off the lands and 44.2 Varget hand trickled each charge), there was less consistency to my groups at 600 yards compared to FGMM 168 SMK. Some were at 9 o'clock, some at 1:30 and others at 3 or 5. Normally, in my limited experience, I can call my misses but yesterday, no dice.

The de-capping stem does oscillate when screwed in or out of the FL die and was purchased like this (every Redding FL die in the store did the same thing) I was under the impression this would self-center during the resizing process. I called Redding and they initially thought it was likely the brass citing a possible inconsistent case neck width. The width looks very consistent to me (and I'm not sure how common such inconsistency would be on once fired brass). Then they said if the problem persists, to send them 5 resized brass and 5 fired brass along with the die. I'm not thrilled about sending my brand new die back and was wondering if anyone here has any ideas about what's causing this. Thanks in advance.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

Look to your seating die first. You may have the seater die too far down in the press causing your crimp function to come into play. If you didn't trim your brass this would account for why some are fine and some ar screwed up. Put a case in your shellholder and run it to the top of the stroke with NO DIE in the press. Now take your seater die and screw it in the press over top of the case. make sure your seater plug is screwed out a bit. Run the die down on the case until it stops...meet your crimp function he is your enemy. Screw the die out 2 full turns and lock your nut. Leave it alone and use your seater stem as it was intended to set up your die. If this isn't the problem at least you gained some knowledge about setting up a seater proper for trouble free function.

As to the decapping assembly I let mine float meaning I keep it loose so it will self center on the downstroke.

 

[Valere]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

Thanks for the reply armorpl8chikn. I was pretty paranoid about accidentally crimping the case and blowing my face up when I originally set up the die. Currently I'm about 1.25 turns away from the shell holder which is about .5 turns away from the crimp using your method. I'm going to back it off even more now that I know I'm that close. Thanks for the advice.

I mentioned leaving the decapping assembly loose to the Redding rep and he said that locking ring is meant to be tight, however, if that is common practice I'm willing to give it a try and see if it works. I decap with a separate die so I'm not too worried about the flash hole because I removed the pin so I imagine the main thing I have to pay close attention to is to make sure he assembly doesn't work its way down to the web.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

"I was under the impression this would self-center during the resizing process."

They will self center, that off-set you see isn't what's "bending" your necks; neither the case nor the expander button is rigidly held sufficent to bend anything. Whats happening is necks will frequently have a soft or thin side that will give way to the expander button, allowing it to follow the weak side. I don't know what your tech rep meant by "wide" necks but he probably meant varying thicknesses. ?? We can't see a difference of maybe 2-3 thou and the variation can easily be below the mouth anyway.

No seater can seat straight in a bent neck so work on straight necks before you start chasing a better seater. Which you may not need.

No method is perfect because our cases aren't perfect but many of us skim turn case necks to even up the thickness a bit and then use a Lee collet neck die for the best average necks. The collet die has no expander, as such, and it isn't fussy about small thickness variations like more costly bushing dies are.

Only way to find and cull necks with soft spots is to test each loaded round for runout. That can only be done effectively with a concentrity gage, we can't eyeball runout unless it's massive!

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

I'm not sure what might be pulling your necks out of alignment, but.

I see a problem when you said that you decap in a separate operation. Nothing wrong with that, but.

When you full length resize, (or however you do it) you are not using the decapping stem and this is what will align the expander ball. You have to use the decapper stem and run it into the flash hole, THEN tighten the lock ring on the expander ball assembly. There is no other way, that I know of, that will center the expander ball and it does no harm, being there, even if you have already removed the primer.

If an expander ball is greatly out of true, then it could possibly "slightly" reorient the necks when it is withdrawn.....or not, I don't know? But, I'm not on board with this self aligning stuff, the expander ball will lock in whatever position you tighten it down in. If it's off center, it's going to stay off center. That's in my experience, unless there is something going on that I don't know about?

Now, a concentricity gauge is great for dicking around with your seater, but when you roll the assembled cartridges on a flat surface and see a wobble, this is a gross error. If it was just a problem with the seater, which "who knows" at this point but if your seater was adjudged to be the source, (which I doubt) then you can mark the high side, and chamber every one the same, like 12 o'clock, or 6 o'clock and that would, (edit: might) improve your groups downrange.

Personally, I can't imagine shooting non concentric ammo, so I would be focused on finding the problem and eliminating it. I use Wilson seating dies and believe my ammo to be as close to dead nuts as is practically possible without the drudgery if spinning and segregating every cartridge based on runout. BB

 

[Valere]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

Fuzzball, you helped clear up a few things, thanks. Yes I was referring to case wall thickness when I said width. I'm not planning on buying a new seater die, but it looks like a precision mic, neck turner and some other tools are, unfortunately, in my future.

Since I am able to eyeball the runout, I guess its pretty substantial. Is there any way to salvage these loaded cartridges?

Regarding the case wall thickness, is this a pretty common problem even in newer brass? Do you think the fact that my brass grew anywhere from .0065 to .0105 after the first resize exacerbated it? I suspect I'm pushing the shoulder back too far but I don't have the tools to confirm it... yet.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

I struggled with FGMM once-fired brass enough to cause me to switch to Winchester.

Nevertheless... if you don't lube the expander ball, uneven friction can cause you problems. Redding makes a carbide replacement that does not require lube. It's worth the money to me.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Valere</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fuzzball, you helped clear up a few things, thanks. Yes I was referring to case wall thickness when I said width. I'm not planning on buying a new seater die, but it looks like a precision mic, neck turner and some other tools are, unfortunately, in my future.

Since I am able to eyeball the runout, I guess its pretty substantial. Is there any way to salvage these loaded cartridges?

Regarding the case wall thickness, is this a pretty common problem even in newer brass? Do you think the fact that my brass grew anywhere from .0065 to .0105 after the first resize exacerbated it? I suspect I'm pushing the shoulder back too far but I don't have the tools to confirm it... yet. </div></div>

You don't need any tools to determine if you are pushing your brass back too far. The fact that you think you pushed them back too far most likely means you did, it indicates you don't know how to set up a FL sizing die. Don't take that personal, most folks don't know how to properly use a FL die.
All you really need to do is learn to properly set up your FL sizing die using a piece of fired brass and a candle. PM me and I will give you the details. I will not post it in the open forum because I am not interested in pissing matches and pecker measuring.

 

[targaflorio]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Valere</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I'm not planning on buying a new seater die, but it looks like a precision mic, neck turner and some other tools are, unfortunately, in my future.

Regarding the case wall thickness, is this a pretty common problem even in newer brass? Do you think the fact that my brass grew anywhere from .0065 to .0105 after the first resize exacerbated it? I suspect I'm pushing the shoulder back too far but I don't have the tools to confirm it... yet. </div></div>

A headspace gauge is cheap insurance. I consider it required. At the least, it should not be listed at the same priority as neck turning tools. I like the RCBS Precision Mic, but the Wilson and others will work.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

<span style="font-style: italic">"Since I am able to eyeball the runout, I guess its pretty substantial."</span>

Probably. And, ref. locking the expander rod down hard, a lot of us like to put a small rubber "O" ring under the stem's lock nut, that will keep it from changing adjustment and leaves enough softness for the stem to better pull inline during extraction.

<span style="font-style: italic">"Is there any way to salvage these loaded cartridges?"</span>

Well they aren't dangerous and your rifle's throat will limit the runout at some point. I'd just shoot it all and use your new tools on the empties. OR, you could use a bullet puller and break 'em down.

<span style="font-style: italic">"Regarding the case wall thickness, is this a pretty common problem even in newer brass?"</span>

It IS common. Less so with the more costly Norma, Lapua and RWS stuff but even they aren't space program perfect. I'd rather prepare common stuff for accuracy myself.

IF you decide to look at a concenrticty gage, check Sinclair's with the lower cost dial gage. And Forster's hand held neck turner (HOT-100) is about as good as they get and the price is modest for the quality.

<span style="font-style: italic">"Do you think the fact that my brass grew anywhere from .0065 to .0105 after the first resize exacerbated it?"</span>

No. Thats not good but it's basically unrelated to the runout.

<span style="font-style: italic">"I suspect I'm pushing the shoulder back too far ..."</span>

Me too.

<span style="font-style: italic">"...but I don't have the tools to confirm it... yet."</span>

The RCBS Precision Case Mic is perhaps the best and easiest gage to measure case lengths to the shoulder. The Hornady/Sinclair tools and a caliper actually work as well but aren't quite as easy to use and are no where near as repeatable between loading sessions - but that's not critical anyway. (The PCM is also great for setting bullet seating depth to the ogive but that "dummy cartridge/freebore" device they include is nearly useless, IMHO.)

All the "drop-in" gages tell us is if our ammo will fit and function in every weapon ever correctly made in that cartridge, they are good if you want to swap your ammo around but they aren't much help for getting a custom fit in an individual chamber.

When your sized cases closely fit your chamber they won't stretch very much. Until you do get a good gage you can get fairly good sizer adjustment by painting your case shoulders with a "magic marker" and turning the sizer down in tiny increments until the shoulder makes die contact as shown by marker rub. Since FL sizing moves the shoulder forward a bit you should then check if you can chamber the sized case smoothly - probably not. Carefully turn the die down in no more than 1/32 turn (about 2 thou) until you can close the bolt with no more than a trace of resistance.

Even cases from the same box rarely expand and contract consistantly so you may need to refine this crude sizer method but you'll be a LOT closer to right than simply following die 'instructions' or jamming each case as deep into the sizer as it can go!

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

Dang! And, I used to think full length resizing was a no brainer! BB

 

[Valere]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dang! And, I used to think full length resizing was a no brainer! BB </div></div>

So did I. Read instructions, follow instructions, get results.... or not.

Thank you to everyone for sharing their ideas and recommendations. Not sure if the FL sizing changes will help my problem but it can't hurt. Maybe if the neck isn't stretching as much with resizing then it wont get as many weak spots.

 

[flashhole]

Re: Bent case neck after FL sizing

Another thing you might look at ... the die has quite a bit of side-to-side play when threading it into the press. If you lock it down to one side and it is off center to the ram it can cause the problem you are describing. I run a lubed case up into my die before I lock it down to ensure the die has axial alignment to the press, ram and shell holder.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

Bent???????

 

[Valere]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bent??????? </div></div>

How about non-concentric, does that clear it up?

 

[Clark]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

I my experience:

1) The worst thing for bending necks is using the expander ball in the FL sizing step. ~~.004"

2) The next worst thing for bending the necks is using the expander ball in a separate step after full length sizing [like a bench rest guy uses a mandrel] ~~ .001"

3) The next worst thing for bending the necks is using an "S" die for sizing the neck for brass sized in a SAAMI [factory] chamber. ~~.001"

4) The next worst thing for bending the necks is using a standard seating die [instead of a Wilson or sliding sleeve seater die] ~~.001"

5) Changing presses must have some effect, but I can't measure it.

1) The best cure for bent necks is to fire them again. ~.0001"
2) The next best cure for bent necks is to bend them straighter with a fixture. ~~~~.001"

Note: Get with the Lee collet neck die early in life, and don't screw around for years without it, like I did. The run out in neck thickness does not add to the eccentricity.

 

[Valere]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input. I tried a lot of your recommendations and I saw some improvement but still not what I was expecting from a brand new setup.

I gave in and picked up the Lee collet die to see if it would do the trick and it made a world of difference. The ammo looks dead nuts on. If there is any runout, its substantially reduced. Thanks again, learned a lot.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

By any chance, did you have too much lube on the case when it was sized? That can cause funky things too.

 

[Valere]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

Yes I did. I reduced the amount of lube after seeing that some of the cases were dimpled and that improved things significantly but didn't eliminate the problem. After researching the Lee system, I decided in favor of it and one of the reasons is because it is lube free.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

Ok, you're on the right track then. But lets backup a sec. The only Lee dies that you won't have to lube for are the Lee collet neck sizing dies. You must lube for FL sizing. I've been using Dillon DCL lube. Many others like it on the market. Make sure to follow directions.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

I know of another person that had some issues with Redding dies. Sorry to say I can't remember what the fix was. I think it had something to do with the decapping pin. Is the die threaded in too far? What press you using?

 

[Valere]

Re: Case Necks Bent After FL Sizing

I was only referring to the collet die using no lube. I don't plan on FL resizing anytime soon since I reload exclusively for a bolt gun. Thanks for the wax recommendation.

I'm using a brand new Rock Chucker Supreme and everything was set up according to the directions, double then triple checked. Only after making this post did I mess around with not having the FL die to the shell holder or backing out the seating die further to avoid crimp. I did remove the decapping pin since I decap with a dedicated die however I replaced it to serve as a visual reference that the assembly was in the correct position.

I'm not saying the Redding dies are bad, rather they just weren't working for my setup. If it was in fact an inconsistency in the brass/neck thickness and Reddings aren't designed to correct that, then I can't expect it to function outside of it's design. Since the Lee functions well regardless, that works better for me.