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Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

F

Flynn

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 25, 2010
389
2
Idaho
I have a new FN SPR A2 in a McMillan A4 stock. The rifle has been bedded. The rifle is coupled with an IOR Valdada 3.5-18x50. The problem I'm having is flyers. Since getting this all together last week, I have about 80 rounds fired.

I've been shooting 5 shot groups and every group has 1-2 flyers. The flyer can occur on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th shot. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason other than the fact I can count on at least one in a 5 shot group.

During one group, I placed 3 shots in the same hole, the the 4th shot was 1.25" away, then the 5th was within .25" of the first 3 shots.

I've been using 168 and 175 FGMM and I'm sure it's not inconsistencies with the ammo.

The action screws are tight, the scope is mounted properly, there is no contact between stock and barrel, and there doesn't appear to be anything obviously wrong with the muzzle crown.

I'm going to try some Hornady 168 AMAX and some southwest ammo.

Anyone have suggestions as to what else I should be looking for or try?
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

43 grains of varget with a 175 SMK will fix that
wink.gif
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">43 grains of varget with a 175 SMK will fix that
wink.gif
</div></div>

I (for now) do not reload..
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Have you had anyone else try to shoot it? Maybe the "flyer" is you.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

There was not anyone else around I know to shoot the rifle. I'm very aware of my part in this, but I'm confident enough in my abilities to know this all isn't me. I have no problems with other rifles using the same ammo.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I had a SPR that I could not get it to group under 3/4" @ 100. Ordered a rock 11.27 twist(from bugholes) and that fixed it.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

EVERY time i see this in person i finger fuck the guys rifle and in about 5 seconds i find a loose ring or base or action screw or ring cap,,, EVERY TIME...
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

When you get random "flyers" like that, with no discernable pattern, rhyme, or reason, the most obvious potential culprit is the driver. Have you tried shooting the Dot Drill target? If you're not familiar with it, this drill can be a useful aid for practicing and reinforcing good shooting fundamentals (position, trigger control, breathing, etc.). Basically, you shoot one shot at each of 15-20 "dots" on a single target, one at a time. A touch counts as a "hit". The dots can be 1.0 MOA, 0.5 MOA, whatever you're comfortable with. If it's too easy, move to a smaller dot. I can tell you from personal experience that hitting all 15 0.5 MOA dots at 100 yd is NOT easy. You might give this drill a try and see if it helps with your groupings. Here is a link:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...951#Post2627951
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gstaylorg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When you get random "flyers" like that, with no discernable pattern, rhyme, or reason, the most obvious potential culprit is the driver. Have you tried shooting the Dot Drill target? If you're not familiar with it, this drill can be a useful aid for practicing and reinforcing good shooting fundamentals (position, trigger control, breathing, etc.). Basically, you shoot one shot at each of 15-20 "dots" on a single target, one at a time. A touch counts as a "hit". The dots can be 1.0 MOA, 0.5 MOA, whatever you're comfortable with. If it's too easy, move to a smaller dot. I can tell you from personal experience that hitting all 15 0.5 MOA dots at 100 yd is NOT easy. You might give this drill a try and see if it helps with your groupings. Here is a link:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...951#Post2627951 </div></div>

I'm not too egotistical to not account for the possibility of shooter error. It's just that I don't have problems with other rifles. I will admit, I do not like the trigger, but made it better with some adjustment, but plan to replace it with a Timney. Before I do that, I'm going to try some other ammo and see what happens. As far as having my friends shoot the rifle, I'm not sure how helpful that will be as I'm a far better shooter than them ( I don't mean to sound like an egomaniac, but it's true).

If any members shoot at the <span style="font-weight: bold">Parma Gun Club in Idaho</span>, let me know as I would love to have you shoot this rifle.

I will give this "dot drill" a try when I get the different loads, thank you for the advice.

If other loads and new trigger don't help, I'll be looking to put another barrel on this new rifle..

This is one example of what I've described:
photobucket-19561-1338253835589.jpg
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Wow. After seeing a picture and how tight your other shots are I would say that maybe it is not you on every group. Based on how tight your other 4 shots are I don't think that it is the barrel either. It might be what JPW said and a loose screw.

Also what kind of rest are you useing. Is the rifle allowed to recoil the same way every time. Some rests that clamp or strap down your rifle will never give you consistant recoil.

If its not barrel, ammo, or shooter then that leaves scope, rings, bedding, and trigger.

Maybe your trigger is not giving you consistant pull every shot.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swampbuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. After seeing a picture and how tight your other shots are I would say that maybe it is not you on every group. Based on how tight your other 4 shots are I don't think that it is the barrel either. It might be what JPW said and a loose screw.

Also what kind of rest are you useing. Is the rifle allowed to recoil the same way every time. Some rests that clamp or strap down your rifle will never give you consistant recoil.

If its not barrel, ammo, or shooter then that leaves scope, rings, bedding, and trigger.

Maybe your trigger is not giving you consistant pull every shot.

</div></div>

Thanks for the reply, I'm using a bipod and a sandbags for a rear rest. As mentioned before, I had a group with the first three shots in damn near the same hole, then a flyer 1.25" away. The flyers are typically 1-1.25" high or low (usually high) and .25" left or right.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JWP6114</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EVERY time i see this in person i finger fuck the guys rifle and in about 5 seconds i find a loose ring or base or action screw or ring cap,,, EVERY TIME... </div></div>

I rechecked the scope mount, ring and base screws are at recommended spec (seekins 20 and 55). The action screws are at 60. This is partially why I'm so frustrated as there isn't anything obviously wrong.

With 80 rounds fired (16 five shot groups) I can account for about 4 (fuck, that was a bad trigger pull). Even these "oh fuck shots" were about .5 moa away from where they should be.

It's possible (highly unlikely) that the barrel doesn't like FGMM. If this continues with the Hornady/Southwest loads, I'm going to ship the scope back and have it examined...I don't know what else to do that doesn't include throwing a bunch of money at it. For what it's worth, the glass and reticle (best reticle I've seen) on the IOR are VERY GOOD. I say this having experience with a Schmidt&Bender. With this said, it's my first xp with a IOR.

This is the C%*t in question:
photobucket-11502-1338259354773.jpg
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had a SPR that I could not get it to group under 3/4" @ 100. Ordered a rock 11.27 twist(from bugholes) and that fixed it. </div></div>

I have a strong feeling that I'll end up with the same conclusion..

I'm pissed at myself for putting the cost of fluting and threading into a barrel I consider a reject...
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">There was not anyone else around I know to shoot the rifle</span>. I'm very aware of my part in this, but I'm confident enough in my abilities to know this all isn't me. <span style="font-weight: bold">I have no problems with other rifles using the same ammo.</span> </div></div>

Next step (and cheapest) is to put the scope on a proven rifle with ammo you know it likes.

Step 2 is facepalm followed by "why didn't I think of that?"
laugh.gif


Random fliers = scope problem.

Good groups = SPR problem

Good luck man.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Mabye your bolt lugs and bolt face arn't bearing evenly cocking the round ever so slightly causing the bullet to contact the rifling at an angle. If it doesn't go in straight it's not going to leave straight. Just a thought
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I hate sounding like a broken record, but..., parallax?
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate sounding like a broken record, but..., parallax? </div></div>


Sounds like parallax to me too. Make sure you have a full sight picture. Any black around the edges will cause this everytime.

also try Turing down the magnification. It will give you a bigger eye box which might help.

Hope you get it figured out. I really like your rig.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Flynn,

Please post what it took to fix the problem when you resolve this.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate sounding like a broken record, but..., parallax? </div></div>

I believe the parallax adjustment knob takes care of this. I've had someone offer to meet me out at the range to confirm or deny shooter problems. I'm also going to try different ammo. If the new ammo and shooter don't resolve the problem, the scope will come off and be tested on another weapon.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

You are staying on the gun through every shot? You don't mix the ammo within the same strings?

My suggestion: Turn down the magnification and shoot a 10 round group.

If the barrel shoots a superb 4 shot group I'd be surprised if the barrel is a problem.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

The SPRs had a problem with the root of the bolt handle hitting the sides of the bolt handle slot. I have seen this cause problem with new ammo because of the brass tolerances. Slightly longer brass (tighter head space) shoots one way and a short (loose head space) shoots some place else. The reason its more apparent with the bolt handle hitting is one is getting a run at the lugs and the other is held in place before firing. Just look for marks on the shooter side of the bolt handle. Just my 2 Cents.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I just worked through the same problem with my custom build. I got the same advice you have gotten. None of it was pertinent to my case either. The caliber is .260 Rem. I handload and was using Sierra 142 and 123 Match Kings, Berger VLDs and Hornady 142 AMax. Brass was Lapua. I tried a couple of popular powders. Nothing worked until my gunsmith suggested I talk to another of his customers who had the same barrel cut with the same reamer. He suggested I try Lapua bullets as that was the only bullet that he found that would shoot in his rifle. I tried the Lapua 139 and my rifle went from shooting .75 MOA to .26 MOA with just a change in bullets. I later tried using Winchester brass with the Lapua bullets and groups went over 1 MOA. I never had such a change in group size with a component change except for some powders.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

A lot of folks believe that knob and some of them are even right.

Learn how to recognize parallax and how to correct it. As often as not, the correlation between parallax and focus adjustments on the more affordable scopes is the least reliable feature in the package.

Like Reagan said, "Trust, but verify".

Greg
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Hi,

You mentioned you had the barrel fluted and threaded was this done by the factory? Also what was the stress in the bedding after it was bedded?

I just went through this with a factory rifle and after all the usual things to look at, it turned out the chamber was nowhere close to concentric with the bore.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 230grRN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi,

You mentioned you had the barrel fluted and threaded was this done by the factory? Also what was the stress in the bedding after it was bedded?

I just went through this with a factory rifle and after all the usual things to look at, it turned out the chamber was nowhere close to concentric with the bore.
</div></div>

I don't know what the stress was with the bedding. The barrel is factory fluted. The bedding, bolt knob and threading was done by tacticalcoordination.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I'd start by checking the bedding stress to be sure its .002 or under. I'd also look for bolt handle contact (mentioned in an ealier post) with the reciever and stock, the handle should only contact the reciever at the bottom when the action is closed. Then I'd move to the barrel, slug to check for any inconsistencies and to check to see if the muzzle flaired slightly due to the threading operation, and if you have or know someone with a bore scope, look for a crooked or nonconcentic neck throat area.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: targaflorio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
My suggestion: Turn down the magnification and shoot a 10 round group.
</div></div>

When I had my IOR 3-18 that's what I did with it. I shot all my 100 yard groups at 10. It was just easier for me to get behind the scope and stay consistent as it had a tight eyebox at max power.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I had a similar problem with my set up till a friend had me close my shooting eye then open it. Found that my point of aim had shifted. My head position was not constant. Just a thought.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

How does a guy check bedding stress?
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

@ Ledzep
A dial indicator on the end of the barrel and torquing down one action screw at a time to see if the action rocks in the bedding.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Maybe a Redding T-7 Reloading press...if you aren't reloading already!
confused.gif
grin.gif
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Flynn,

I've Got the same rifle, just bought it last month brand new from the same place (Tac-Cord).

My barrel is not fluted and non-threaded. No mods done. Has four round DBM.and having the exact same issues. Shoot only match ammo. Did the "Dot Drill" twice and it was all over the place.

Re-checked and continually re-tourque all - Badger rings, action bolts etc... Still very inconsistent. My DPMS SASS 308 semi-auto is more consistant.

Would love to know what the cause is.




 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nightshift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flynn,

I've Got the same rifle, just bought it last month brand new from the same place (Tac-Cord).

My barrel is not fluted and non-threaded. No mods done. Has four round DBM.and having the exact same issues. Shoot only match ammo. Did the "Dot Drill" twice and it was all over the place.

Re-checked and continually re-tourque all - Badger rings, action bolts etc... Still very inconsistent. My DPMS SASS 308 semi-auto is more consistant.

Would love to know what the cause is.
</div></div>


This is interesting to hear. Have you called Mike to let him know you're having grouping problems? I'm beginning to think it's the bedding, but don't know how or have the means to test this theory.

I'm very disappointed and will likely end up shipping it back for inspection. As it stands now, I have no confidence in this weapon. With that said, Mike has been great with communication and I do believe he will do his best to make it right..

 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Flynn,

I haven't contacted Mike about this, yet. Thought it was my technique or something I was doing wrong - until I saw your posts.

Extremely poor consistency shooting this rifle thus far. I've shot it ALOT since I've gotten it and can't find the problem.

Took the action out to check the bedding...I don't know. Seen better and seen worse. Action seats okay but there's definitely something funky with this gun.

Mike was awesome with buying the gun and I feel bad bitching at this point but I'm so frustrated, I'm ready to pawn this thing.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nightshift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flynn,

I haven't contacted Mike about this, yet. Thought it was my technique or something I was doing wrong - until I saw your posts.

Extremely poor consistency shooting this rifle thus far. I've shot it ALOT since I've gotten it and can't find the problem.

Took the action out to check the bedding...I don't know. Seen better and seen worse. Action seats okay but there's definitely something funky with this gun.

Mike was awesome with buying the gun and I feel bad bitching at this point but I'm so frustrated, I'm ready to pawn this thing.

</div></div>

I recommend you send him a text and let him know about the problem. He knows I've been having trouble and we both purchased about the same time. If you need his contact info, send me a pm..
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I try to contact him tomorrow. Think I got his cell # still.

Please keep me updated and I'll do the same.

-- [email protected] --
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I let him know to expect a call/text from you, he's eager to help..
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Thanks Flynn. That's good to know Mike's concerned and aware.

Hope we can get this figured out. Keep in touch.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

Hey guys I just remembered something Gordy Gritters told us when I took his gunsmithing classes about a gun that was doing something similar to this. It was a full custom build, Dakota action, custom barrel everything. The owner had it back to the maker 3 times and a new different barrel was installed each time with the same outcome. He then sent it to Mr Gritters for what would be its fourth barrel. Upon receiving it and looking it over he noticed the bolt had excessive slop in its raceway somewhere around .013" to .014" IIRC. So he suggested he try sleeving the bolt before trying another barrel. After sleeving the gun was shooting sub 1/2" consistently.

So that may be something for you guys to look into.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 230grRN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys I just remembered something Gordy Gritters told us when I took his gunsmithing classes about a gun that was doing something similar to this. It was a full custom build, Dakota action, custom barrel everything. The owner had it back to the maker 3 times and a new different barrel was installed each time with the same outcome. He then sent it to Mr Gritters for what would be its fourth barrel. Upon receiving it and looking it over he noticed the bolt had excessive slop in its raceway somewhere around .013" to .014" IIRC. So he suggested he try sleeving the bolt before trying another barrel. After sleeving the gun was shooting sub 1/2" consistently.

So that may be something for you guys to look into. </div></div>

Forgive my ignorance, but the action is factory blueprinted. Wouldn't this process find a defect like you describe?
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

That all depends if the person or company sees it as a defect! The blueprint process generally does not address any bolt to receiver clearances and is more focused on squaring things up to one another, back of the bolt lugs to the bolt face etc.

When I blueprint actions for people I ask if they want there bolt sleeved or replaced with a new bolt if available. Lots of times guys choose not to do either and the receiver to bolt clearances remain as factory spec where +.007" clearances are not uncommon.

I hope this helps clear it up a bit.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ridgeback80</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> friend of mine had the same problem with his spr from tac cord ! the barrel was almost touching on one side of the channel and ended up taking it to short action custom to have it fixed after tac cord did nothing! when i find the thread i will post a link! </div></div>

I've not found anything obviously wrong with this rifle. The barrel sits well in the stock with no contact with the stock and is well centered. The action and scope screws are all torqued to spec. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the barrel or crown (I don't have access to a barrel scope).

With this said, Mike has been <span style="font-weight: bold">VERY</span> good in communicating with me and is <span style="font-weight: bold">VERY</span> eager to help and make this right. Yes I'm disappointed to be having any problems, but the best I could hope for is a willingness to help and make it right, Mike has done that. I can only speak for my experience with Mike, but I'm surprised to hear your friend didn't get good support as my communication with Mike has been the opposite. When I messaged him saying I'll need to send it in, his response was "I"ll get right on it".

There does seem to be a pattern with folks having problems with these SPRs and (as mentioned before) I suspect bedding is the problem. At this point, I just want the rifle to shoot consistently so I can begin to enjoy the new rifle and scope set up.
 
Re: Very Frustrated with the groupings!!!!

I wonder how far the Savage floating bolt head idea would go toward addressing bolt/raceway relationship questions.
 
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