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Vertical Grip Questions

10MM Man

Private
Minuteman
Mar 22, 2012
24
0
67
Albuquerque
I'm trying to improve my offhand shooting. I used to shoot archery which of course has a vertical grip. I could hold the bow perfectly still to release the shot. My offhand shooting with my AR however is not so stable. I can keep it inside 6 inches at 50 yards but I wander quite a bit. I'm wondering if a vertical fore end grip might help. Is it the same concept with a push pull type of hold? Also which kind of grip would you suggest?
Thanks
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

http://www.odcmp.org/1007/default.asp?page=USAMU_STANDING



<span style="font-weight: bold">Standing and Trigger Control

By SGT Brandon Green, USAMU Service Rifle Team Member




We’ve all been there—on the two hundred yard line and in our three-minute prep period. As you stand there looking through your sights, you just can’t seem to make them stay in the center of your target or even close for that matter. You know that your three minutes are running out quickly, so what are you going to do? This is the time when a lot of shooters start to come unraveled. We all know that nothing I tell you here will make you stand up there and shoot center shots all day, but maybe I can bring a few things to light that will help you control the movement and work through times like this. On days when your standing just doesn’t seem to settle, we need to be able to quickly evaluate and, if necessary, rebuild our position to help control the movement. We all know how to stand up, but it’s the standing still part that gives us trouble most of the time.

We will start our position rebuild at the feet. You normally want your feet about shoulder width apart and perpendicular to the target. Some shooters like to keep their weight evenly distributed between the heels and balls of their feet, but this may not be the best position for you. I normally try to find a place on the firing line where my toes are just slightly higher than my heels, maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 inch higher. With my toes slightly higher, I feel a little more of the pressure on the balls of my feet. This usually helps me eliminate some of the back and forth movement in my position by inducing a little tension in my calf muscles.

At this point I will check for excess tension in other parts of my legs. I notice that excess tension in my upper legs can also cause me to sway back and forth more than usual. By rotating each foot in or out, I can usually find a position that will eliminate this excess tension and help my legs feel more relaxed. I then check the tension in my knees. I don’t shoot with my knees locked, but they aren’t exactly bent either. I find where they are comfortable and stick with it. Now that my legs are at a good starting point, I move up to my hips and waist.

I normally shoot with my hips perpendicular to the target and twist at the waist slightly. This is more of an international style rifle position than a traditional highpower position, but it is very comfortable and relaxed for me. With my waist only slightly twisted, I can rest my forward arm almost directly on my hip bone instead of bringing it around and resting it on my ribs.



Place the butt stock into your shoulder where you can achieve an optimum head position. Generally, the butt is placed higher in the shoulder for the standing position than other positions.

In order to center the weight of the rifle over my body, I shoot with a good bit of back bend in my position. This helps keep my head more upright and keeps me from getting too much of the back and forth movement that I talked about earlier. I have also tried eliminating the backbend and trying to stand more upright the way some of the other shooters on our team stand, but I find that I start to lean forward as soon as I relax.

I try to pay very close attention to my shoulders and arms, because if I have very much tension in them, I am almost always farther outside of my calls than I should be. The rifle is placed high in my shoulder so that my head is upright and I’m not bending over to look through the sights. Because the butt of the rifle is so high in my shoulder, I have to position my forward hand in a way that gets the front of the rifle up to the target, instead of doing this by lowering the butt of the rifle in my shoulder.



Your non-firing hand is the platform on which the rifle lies. Your hand position will control the height, or elevation, of your position.

My non-firing hand position includes the sling in its grasp underneath the hand guard of the rifle. This helps me get the front of the rifle up to where I want it. I try to grip the hand guard only enough to keep my hand from moving under the rifle. I also try to pay close attention to not gripping so hard that I create tension in my forward arm.

I place my firing hand high on the pistol grip and use a firm grip to hold the rifle in place. This firm grip pressure also helps me be aggressive on the trigger without moving the rifle when I break the shot. The position of my firing hand allows my trigger finger to fall naturally on the trigger, which for me, places the trigger in the crease of the first joint of my finger. You want to pay attention to your firing-hand grip to ensure that you are not applying torque to the rifle when you try to move the trigger straight to the rear.



In order to get the head pressure to acquire and keep good sight alignment, place your chin on the top of the stock and drag it down until your eyes are behind the rear sight.

Next I position my head on the stock of the rifle by using a technique we call dragging skin. I start by placing my chin on the top of the stock and dragging it down until my eye is behind the rear sight. Using this technique allows you to pull up all of the excess skin from under your cheek and helps you get the head pressure you need to acquire and keep good sight alignment. Without good head pressure, the rifle will move under your head during recoil. When the rifle does this, you will loose the sight alignment you worked so hard to achieve and it will be very difficult to call your shots. It is very important to check your head position and sight alignment every single shot! You want to be consistent with your head position and the pressure you put on the stock of the rifle. The best way to work on getting a good head position is by doing lots of standing dry fire practice, either at the range or at home. Find a position that allows you to look directly through the center of your rear sight without having to stretch your neck too much.

When you are dry firing, pay attention to your follow through. You want to be sure you aren’t jumping off of the rifle as soon as you break the shot. It is much easier to catch yourself doing this when you are dry firing than when you have the recoil of the rifle to hide it.



Being aggressive on the trigger means putting initial pressure on the trigger before you get into your hold and then breaking the shot when you want to.

This brings us to the subject of trigger control. Trigger control is simply the manner in which you move the trigger to the rear to fire the rifle. There are many different ways to move the trigger to the rear, but the key to all of them is being SMOOTH. Most match grade service rifles use a two-stage trigger set at four and a half pounds. The two-stage trigger allows you to take up around two pounds of this weight with the first stage and will break cleanly as you add the other two and a half pounds of pressure. With these triggers I like to use a fairly aggressive trigger control. Of course, the firm grip pressure I use helps me do that. I take up the first stage of the trigger as soon as I get my head positioned on the stock and I usually take three breaths before I exhale and let the sights settle on the target. With the aggressive trigger control I use, I apply the pressure to break the shot as soon as it starts to settle. If I’m having more movement than usual, I try to break the shot as it starts to come into the nine ring. Breaking the shot on the move is tricky sometimes, and you would much rather break it on the way in than on the way out. If you break a shot on the move as it passes through the black, you will most certainly be outside of call. We call this being “behind on the trigger”. When you break a shot as it starts to come onto the target, you are more likely to hit closer to center than you would if you were behind on the trigger. Some people choose to take the first and second stages of the trigger all at once and this will work as long as you are smooth on the trigger. I’ve personally never been able to use this type of trigger control because I tend to pull the trigger way too fast and hard. Whichever type of trigger control you use, it is usually better to be a little aggressive. Being aggressive will usually help you break the shots as soon as they get close to center.

Now that I have told you how I rebuild my position, it is time for you to go out and work on yours. Remember the key points I have discussed, take good notes and good luck.</span>
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

Shooting offhand accurately is less about position and more about trigger control. I used to work on the ranges at Parris Island with a CWO that told me a story how he once cleaned the offhand stage with a sick number of "V's". I asked how he shot so well at offhand trying to glean some magical trick of the trade, and he replied "I only squeeze the trigger when the sights are in the black." So simple and yet so sensible...

You can work on your position in a few different ways, but I'd say stick more to the basics than going with a piece of gear. Bone support is a big key to proper offhand firing. I still lay my rifle in the V of my non-firing thumb and hand, close to the slip ring. Elbow and tricep against my body with my non firing arm, and firing arm with the arm down in a relaxed state. A hasty sling can do wonders too for firing from the standing, with the sling running across your chest with non-firing elbow pushed outboard for tension. Yes, tension from the firing hand on the pistol grip to the rear is necessary, but not necessarily hard, just there.

Dry fire practice can greatly assist you in this effort, and if you don't have one already a crisp and somewhat light trigger can also help. It takes practice and a lot of it, so I also recommend rimfire training too.

Bottom line though, I wouldn't go with a vertical foregrip for the fix.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

Oh I have a quick question about vertical grips, do they really make a difference or are they something that works for some and doesn't for others.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

I personally really like the Magpul angled fore grip. Works well for me.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

They can be nice to have but they won't really make up for poor technique.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

Thanks Luke. Some good pointers in that article. I've seen guys at the range shoot with that high hold form, but have never tried it. Shooting the 223, shouldn't be a problem with recoil, but the 308 will. I'll have to read through it again and see what I can incorporate into my form. When I'm hunting, there is always a rest handy; tree or backpack, whatever. Even when there isn't I don't notice the cross hairs moving. Targets are a whole different matter. Thanks again.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

Redmanss, "I still lay my rifle in the V of my non-firing thumb and hand, close to the slip ring." Is the plam of the non firing hand facing more or less away from the shooter, somewhat like the hold of a pool que?
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

As was alluded to in an earlier post, the non-firing hand will control elevation. You can place your non firing hand any place on the hand guard in the standing position that feels most relaxed. Technique is not going to be the same for all. For me, the delta ring is placed between the thumb and index finger with fingers pretty much resting over the ejection port. This palm is facing the mag well. This works for HP since the standing position is a single load event and I've got a glove on that hand.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

One problem I have with standing offhand shooting, is I cannot use bone support without having to lean back quite a good deal. The rifle seems to point down instead of at the target.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

One thing I like about the mag pul angled grip is that I have long arms and don't like "riding" the mag well as it makes me feel kind of cramped up. the mag-pul grip can be adjusted on your rail to alleviate this. Just my 2 cents.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

Sterling, thanks for the feedback. I had put guns to the side in 1988 and got hooked on archery. I shot competitively for a few years then was sent to Florida for work. I decided to buy a rifle and started shooting on the weekends at the Manatee gun club. There I met some retired military guys who taught me the basics, and it snowballed from there. I've pretty much been on the bench here in Albuquerque since then. I rarely see anyone shooting offhand. I bought an AR, developed a couple of accurate loads for it, and now want to really learn how to shoot it; offhand, prone, sitting. Maybe get into some 3 gun competition. Again, thanks to you and all the others for the great feedback.
 
Re: Vertical Grip Questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hardcast</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Redmanss, "I still lay my rifle in the V of my non-firing thumb and hand, close to the slip ring." Is the plam of the non firing hand facing more or less away from the shooter, somewhat like the hold of a pool que?</div></div> I shoot offhand just as Sterling described. The forearm of the rifle isn't in my palm, more the magazine is without it actually touching. When I'm shooting with a hasty sling, my non-firing hand is actually loosely gripping the forearm close to the FSP assembly.