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Gunsmithing Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

JB02

CDR
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Sep 14, 2011
    1,403
    10
    Northern VA
    Rig:
    .300 WM
    Surgeon XL
    Bartlein 1/10 MTU 26" with Badger FTE
    MCS T4A

    Load:
    Hornady or Winchester Brass trimmed to 2.610" (trim length per Hornady reloading manual) Note: Winchester brass was virgin
    Hornady 208 gr BTHP/AMAX, .020" from lands
    76.8 gr H1000
    Federal Gold Magnum primers
    All cases full-length sized with Forster Ultra FL Sizing Die

    Problem summary:

    Cases fail to properly eject from receiver. In every malfunction instance, the extractor is able to pull the case to the point where the intersection of the case body and neck is roughly aligned with the right hand side bolt lug notch in the receiver. At that point, the cases sometimes fall off the bolt face and land over the top of the next cartridge in the magazine. Roughly 1/2 of 30 cases failed to eject after fire at the range yesterday (3/23).

    There are no obvious overpressure signs and I am well clear of the max load. The primer is not deformed, nor are there cracks or seams near the case head.

    Troubleshooting to date:

    I have had the rifle since November. Ejection problems were not noted until late January, after roughly 300 rounds had been fired.

    Rifle was sent to Surgeon Rifles for evaluation ~ 2/6. Stephen reported that they were unable to recreate the problem; however, Stephen said that they did slightly relieve bolt's extractor to address any potential case extraction issues.

    After receiving rifle, the ejection problem persisted at the range. Afterwards, the Hornady brass we prepped per specs above and Winchester brass was also purchased to determine if brass was faulty. Additionally, a fellow Hide member let me use his .300 WM AI magazine to rule out a faulty magazine. Ejection problems still noted. Hide member noted that ejector spring was potentially defective.

    Per Hide member's recommendation, the firing pin was removed from the bolt and the internals were thoroughly cleaned. but the ejection issue persisted and the bolt was sent back to Surgeon on 3/8 with request to replace ejector spring.

    Received bolt 3/21 with new ejector. Upon receipt I immediately cycled 15 loaded Hornady and 15 loaded Winchester rounds without ejector malfunction; however, at range on 3/23, roughly 1/2 of 30 cases failed to eject after fire.

    After experiencing this issue at the range, I cycled 69 loaded rounds. Every single loaded cartridge ejected without issue. This included cases loaded with Winchester and Hornady. Conversely, 3 of 30 empty cases that were shot yesterday of the virgin Winchester lot failed to eject from the receiver. The failed cases have no noticeable defects and they did eject on a second attempt. On a second test, 1 of 15 cases failed to eject with a failing case having passed on the first attempt. I then full length resized the fired cases. After resizing, 16 of 30 cases failed to properly eject.

    I'm at a loss of how to proceed. I have attempted to rule out the brass, magazine, extractor and ejector, and I'm sure you can sympathize with my frustration. Customer service with Surgeon has been first class, but I want to get some more input from more experts on this forum before bothering them again.

    I very much appreciate any help. Thank you.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    No. Fast or slow the failure rate is ~ the same.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    Without having your rifle here in the shop this is just aneducated guess. When the case clears the chamber the ejector pushes it to the right. Upon hitting the inside of the action the case head is such angle that it's not supported inside the bolt nose. The impact has enough force that the case slides out from under the extractor. Common problem on short cases like a 6BR.
    There are several things that might solve the problem.
    1. Lengthen the travel of the ejector. Maintaining contact with the case longer as it swings sideways will minimize the effect.
    2. Reduce the ejector spring tension. That reducdes the impact velocity with the side of the action and it will reduce the tendency to want to kick out from the extractor.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    Dave, your guess seems very reasonable. I have seen that the case extracts at an angle and the point of failure is always about where the body/neck section of the case is just about flush with the notch in the right receiver for the right bolt lug.

    It sounds like I would need to have the whole rifle sent out to get the ejector travel length/spring tension set right, would you agree?

    Would it help if I had a video done of the extraction to see if this fixes the problem?

    Is it possible that .300 WM is too short a case for the XL action?
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    If you would like me to take a look at it all I would need is the barreled action, no scope and no trigger.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    sir-
    are you certain the cases arent hitting your windage knob and falling back into the ejection port?
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    I am having a very similar issue with my Scalpel built on a 1086 action.
    Sometimes the fired case won't be caught by the extractor and stays in the chamber. I only have to close the bolt on it again to get it out. Loads are not wild (a touch under max). Other times empty case seems to fall off the extractor before ejection.
    I was thinking either a weak extractor spring or that the extracted round is getting knocked loose by the next round in the mag.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugholes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">sir-
    are you certain the cases arent hitting your windage knob and falling back into the ejection port?</div></div>

    Absolutely 100% positive they aren't hitting the windage knob. With the way my Razor HD sits on that 30 MOA rail on the 1" high rings I'm not sure that's even possible. When they eject, they always fly out with a downward angle. Each time a malfunction occurs the extractor pulls the case to the point where the body/neck junction is about flush with the notch in the receiver for the right bolt lug. It's angled like it wants to fly out of the receiver, but then the bolt loses its hold and the case falls on top the next round in the magazine. Doesn't matter if I cycle slow or fast.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoot4fun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am having a very similar issue with my Scalpel built on a 1086 action.
    Sometimes the fired case won't be caught by the extractor and stays in the chamber. I only have to close the bolt on it again to get it out. Loads are not wild (a touch under max). Other times empty case seems to fall off the extractor before ejection.
    I was thinking either a weak extractor spring or that the extracted round is getting knocked loose by the next round in the mag.
    </div></div>

    At first I thought there was something wrong with my extractor too, but I never have had a problem with cases being stuck in the chamber.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    suggest you take your mag out before ejecting the fired case, this would eliminate possibility of pressure from a round below, will help you to narrow down your variables
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugholes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">suggest you take your mag out before ejecting the fired case, this would eliminate possibility of pressure from a round below, will help you to narrow down your variables </div></div>

    Went to range today with 20 rounds of the same lot loaded as above. Marks with a " + " indicate failure to eject. The first two cycles were completed without a magazine in the action, the second two were completed with a magazine in the action:

    300WMFailureRate25MAR12.jpg


    Failure rate with magazine out was 40%, 30% with magazine in, and 35% overall. IMO, 30% vs 40% is close enough to rule out contribution from the magazine. My other comment is that this rate isn't acceptable from this type of action.

    *The brass in this test was "virgin", but F/L resized with a Forster Ultra die (one of the best available).*
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: X Ring Accuracy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave is right. The extractor is pushing the case out of the bolt nose as soon as case neck clears the ejection port.</div></div>

    The extractor is pushing the case out of the bolt nose? Not the ejector? I thought the extractor only gripped and pulled on the case?
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you would like me to take a look at it all I would need is the barreled action, no scope and no trigger. </div></div>

    Barreled action on its way per PM.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    Update:
    as noted above, I had this same issue with my 1086 300 WM. I contacted Surgeon in early April and they advised me to send the bolt only. I did and it took less than a week for it to go, get fixed and return.
    Anyway, I have not had time to get behind this one to check out the fix until yesterday. It is working great!
    Not sure what they had to do but I know it was a minor adjustment to get it running smoothly.
    Great service and many thanks to Surgeon.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    Had same problem, sent bolt back to surgeon, pretty sure the wrong extractor was included when I purchased action because it came back with a different one. I was told bolt was assembled wrong...don't think it was possible, but rifle runs fine now.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    Why isn't someone from Surgeon in here explainging what's going on by now? Manner's is putting my stock together right now and I recently told them I wanted to go with the Surgeon 1086R. It is responses from people like this that make me want to reconsider where I am going to be spending my money at.

    I have heard nothing but great things about Surgeon up until now. Service is perfect but so is Defiance which was my origional choice.

    Has anyone ever heard of a Templar action having extraction or ejection issue's?

    Respectfully,
    -Ms
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why isn't someone from Surgeon in here explainging what's going on by now? Manner's is putting my stock together right now and I recently told them I wanted to go with the Surgeon 1086R. It is responses from people like this that make me want to reconsider where I am going to be spending my money at.

    I have heard nothing but great things about Surgeon up until now. Service is perfect but so is Defiance which was my origional choice.

    Has anyone ever heard of a Templar action having extraction or ejection issue's?

    Respectfully,
    -Ms </div></div>

    Moonshadow, I think that you will be fine with your 1086/R, as this issue pertains to the 1581XL. The 1086 has a reputation as a very rugged, reliable action, and I am unaware of any issues regarding it's feeding or extraction. Bob Swagger here on the Hide posted some great performance pics of the results he had with a Gradous built 1086. Terry Cross of KMWLR, who posted on your thread, also builds fine rifles on the 1086 as well. I think you should leave your build that Manners is making for you alone.

    If you were looking to build a .300 WM rifle on the 1581XL action, I would advise based on my experience to go with .338 LM or the 1086 action instead. Since you are going with .300 WM on a 1086, you should be good to go.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why isn't someone from Surgeon in here explainging what's going on by now? Manner's is putting my stock together right now and I recently told them I wanted to go with the Surgeon 1086R. It is responses from people like this that make me want to reconsider where I am going to be spending my money at.

    I have heard nothing but great things about Surgeon up until now. Service is perfect but so is Defiance which was my origional choice.
    </div></div>

    Does Surgeon even know this thread exists? Have they been alerted of this huge customer service issue??

    Seriously?
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why isn't someone from Surgeon in here explainging what's going on by now? Manner's is putting my stock together right now and I recently told them I wanted to go with the Surgeon 1086R. It is responses from people like this that make me want to reconsider where I am going to be spending my money at.

    I have heard nothing but great things about Surgeon up until now. Service is perfect but so is Defiance which was my origional choice.
    </div></div>

    Does Surgeon even know this thread exists? Have they been alerted of this huge customer service issue??

    Seriously?</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why isn't someone from Surgeon in here explainging what's going on by now? Manner's is putting my stock together right now and I recently told them I wanted to go with the Surgeon 1086R. It is responses from people like this that make me want to reconsider where I am going to be spending my money at.

    I have heard nothing but great things about Surgeon up until now. Service is perfect but so is Defiance which was my origional choice.
    </div></div>

    Does Surgeon even know this thread exists? Have they been alerted of this huge customer service issue??

    Seriously?</div></div>

    Jasonk, I suspect they are aware this thread exits, but in any event, Surgeon went to tremendous lengths to resolve the problem I encountered with my 1581XL, vastly exceeding my expectations. They are GTG and I wholeheartedly endorse their craftsmanship and level of service.

    Seriously.
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    im having this issue currently on my surgeon 1086

    odd thing is it only happens after the trigger is pulled..

    i loaded up rounds with no primers they eject fine until i pull the trigger then they just end up loose in the chamber

    i tried out a few 300wm snap caps they too will eject fine but once i pull the trigger they will not eject properly

    i tested out brass that had been fired through the gun already and they come out regardless

    after actually shooting live rounds if i try to eject right after the shot it will most likely fail to eject.. if i wait a few seconds it will eject

    there are no signs of over pressure .. loading 208gr amax in rws virgin brass to mag length..

    also the rws brass gets a little marking from when the bolt closes sometimes.. mostly on rounds that fail to eject.. it looks like a scratch in the shape of a half moon from the ejector
     
    Re: Help please - Surgeon XL case ejection problem

    Because people who contact Surgeon directly for help have no difficulty getting taken care of. That is the normal method of obtaining customer service. And in Surgeon's case it works very well.

    Even the OP said they are good, but he didn't want to bother them again.

    Have you read the entire thread?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Moonshadow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why isn't someone from Surgeon in here explainging what's going on by now? Manner's is putting my stock together right now and I recently told them I wanted to go with the Surgeon 1086R. It is responses from people like this that make me want to reconsider where I am going to be spending my money at.

    I have heard nothing but great things about Surgeon up until now. Service is perfect but so is Defiance which was my origional choice.

    Has anyone ever heard of a Templar action having extraction or ejection issue's?

    Respectfully,
    -Ms </div></div>