Can anyone explain this?
- Thread starter Gman021
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Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Short version could be something like this.
Usually the triggers on bolt guns are crisper.
Don't know the what the mechanisms are called, but in a bolt gun the firing pin is released and go in a straight line to the primer.
In a semi there is more travel because a hammer has to move to hit a pin that hits the primer.
No moving parts after the shot breaks means a cleaner follow through.
Bolt guns are usually made to be more ergonomic.
I don't know how much merit should be given to each of these. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Short version could be something like this.
Usually the triggers on bolt guns are crisper.
Don't know the what the mechanisms are called, but in a bolt gun the firing pin is released and go in a straight line to the primer.
In a semi there is more travel because a hammer has to move to hit a pin that hits the primer.
No moving parts after the shot breaks means a cleaner follow through.
Bolt guns are usually made to be more ergonomic.
I don't know how much merit should be given to each of these. Just my thoughts on the subject.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kaspermj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short version could be something like this.
Usually the triggers on bolt guns are crisper.
Don't know the what the mechanisms are called, but in a bolt gun the firing pin is released and go in a straight line to the primer.
In a semi there is more travel because a hammer has to move to hit a pin that hits the primer.
No moving parts after the shot breaks means a cleaner follow through.
Bolt guns are usually made to be more ergonomic.
I don't know how much merit should be given to each of these. Just my thoughts on the subject. </div></div>
That is pretty much it. Bolt guns are a slight bit more user friendly as far as precision is concerned. An expert shooter will find both platforms are very accurate.
Also take into account that making an accurate semi-auto costs more than making an accurate bolt gun. Therefore, there are more quality bolt guns than there are gas guns.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kaspermj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Short version could be something like this.
Usually the triggers on bolt guns are crisper.
Don't know the what the mechanisms are called, but in a bolt gun the firing pin is released and go in a straight line to the primer.
In a semi there is more travel because a hammer has to move to hit a pin that hits the primer.
No moving parts after the shot breaks means a cleaner follow through.
Bolt guns are usually made to be more ergonomic.
I don't know how much merit should be given to each of these. Just my thoughts on the subject. </div></div>
That is pretty much it. Bolt guns are a slight bit more user friendly as far as precision is concerned. An expert shooter will find both platforms are very accurate.
Also take into account that making an accurate semi-auto costs more than making an accurate bolt gun. Therefore, there are more quality bolt guns than there are gas guns.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
less moving parts.
less moving parts.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
tight tolerances in gas guns can result in less reliability
the bolt does not lock up as consistently in a gas gun
more moving parts inside a gas gun before the bullet exits the barrel
ergonomics
tight tolerances in gas guns can result in less reliability
the bolt does not lock up as consistently in a gas gun
more moving parts inside a gas gun before the bullet exits the barrel
ergonomics
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
As it was explained to me in an AR type of gas gun there are very little if any closing cams. They rely on the bolts forward motion to drive the cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt. If it doesn’t quite get there you have a forward assist to complete the job. Because of the lack of this camming action to close the bolt it is best to have a looser chamber and looser tolerances on a semi auto to keep it operating reliably. The gas gun has gasses that are being directed back into the action area and opens sooner allowing more fouling to come back into the action area thus requiring looser tolerances to operate. On most bolt guns chamber tolerances can be held tighter and still work reliably. The semi auto does have more moving parts that are banging back and forth while operating also. That being said I have seen a few semi autos that were very impressive.
AJ
As it was explained to me in an AR type of gas gun there are very little if any closing cams. They rely on the bolts forward motion to drive the cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt. If it doesn’t quite get there you have a forward assist to complete the job. Because of the lack of this camming action to close the bolt it is best to have a looser chamber and looser tolerances on a semi auto to keep it operating reliably. The gas gun has gasses that are being directed back into the action area and opens sooner allowing more fouling to come back into the action area thus requiring looser tolerances to operate. On most bolt guns chamber tolerances can be held tighter and still work reliably. The semi auto does have more moving parts that are banging back and forth while operating also. That being said I have seen a few semi autos that were very impressive.
AJ
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter.
In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter.</div></div>
Agreed...My LMT is sub moa all day in capable hands and can hold it's own against my TRG. The TRG trigger is awesome but the Geissele in my LMT is no slouch either. With me it's sub moa about a 1/2 of the time though haha...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter.</div></div>
Agreed...My LMT is sub moa all day in capable hands and can hold it's own against my TRG. The TRG trigger is awesome but the Geissele in my LMT is no slouch either. With me it's sub moa about a 1/2 of the time though haha...
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Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
AR-15s are impressive and can be made very accurate. They have more parts than a bolt gun. More parts means more potential problems and more tolerance stack up that could affect accuracy. Simple isn't always better but as Einstein said, "You should make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Personally I can't stand that noise of the buffer spring in my ear and the slight bit of play in the stock from the hinges.
AR-15s are impressive and can be made very accurate. They have more parts than a bolt gun. More parts means more potential problems and more tolerance stack up that could affect accuracy. Simple isn't always better but as Einstein said, "You should make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Personally I can't stand that noise of the buffer spring in my ear and the slight bit of play in the stock from the hinges.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lcc2013</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I can't stand that noise of the buffer spring in my ear and the slight bit of play in the stock from the hinges. </div></div>
Most people opt for more ridged stocks when building a Precision AR.
As has been said, gas guns require extra effort to make them accurate. Also remember that bolt guns have a very low cyclic rate and therefore even before 1 moa rifles existed, people focused on marksmanship. With bolt guns, every shot needs to be exact. They have had over 100 years to perfect themselves.
When gas guns came around, the main focus for a very long time, was just getting them to function reliably. Achieving functionality must occur before you can focus on making them accurate. Bolt guns never really had a functionality issue.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lcc2013</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally I can't stand that noise of the buffer spring in my ear and the slight bit of play in the stock from the hinges. </div></div>
Most people opt for more ridged stocks when building a Precision AR.
As has been said, gas guns require extra effort to make them accurate. Also remember that bolt guns have a very low cyclic rate and therefore even before 1 moa rifles existed, people focused on marksmanship. With bolt guns, every shot needs to be exact. They have had over 100 years to perfect themselves.
When gas guns came around, the main focus for a very long time, was just getting them to function reliably. Achieving functionality must occur before you can focus on making them accurate. Bolt guns never really had a functionality issue.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
David Tubb talks about this at length his book <span style="font-style: italic">The Rifle Shooter</span> where he explains his dissatisfaction with the SR-25 as a match rifle and the development of the T2K. One of his main complaints is the lock time of the SR-25 due to the hammer fall compared to the T2K and its firing pin.
—Andreas
David Tubb talks about this at length his book <span style="font-style: italic">The Rifle Shooter</span> where he explains his dissatisfaction with the SR-25 as a match rifle and the development of the T2K. One of his main complaints is the lock time of the SR-25 due to the hammer fall compared to the T2K and its firing pin.
—Andreas
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Less moving parts
Less moving parts
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter.</div></div>
I'm inclined to agree with that. And unless you have a lot of skill as a shooter, are you really going to notice the difference between a 1/2 MOA gun and a 3/4 MOA gun? Maybe if your goal is to just go to the range and spend your time shooting the tightest possible groups on paper? But that gets old kinda quick though.
FWIW, at a recent training class we were taking shots at a 1,235 yard target, and the only guy who made any hits was using an old SR-25. None of us with those "more accurate bolt guns" scored a single hit on that target.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter.</div></div>
I'm inclined to agree with that. And unless you have a lot of skill as a shooter, are you really going to notice the difference between a 1/2 MOA gun and a 3/4 MOA gun? Maybe if your goal is to just go to the range and spend your time shooting the tightest possible groups on paper? But that gets old kinda quick though.
FWIW, at a recent training class we were taking shots at a 1,235 yard target, and the only guy who made any hits was using an old SR-25. None of us with those "more accurate bolt guns" scored a single hit on that target.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
I've gone back and forth in my mind over this subject several times. On the one hand, I think that the best examples of each are going to be comparably accurate, although it is harder to shoot a semi auto accurately. This has led me to question the financial wisdom in having a bolt action trued and blue printed.
On the other hand, I know guys that are pretty seriously into benchrest shooting where you need to shoot an aggregate of a .17" group for three five round groups to even have a chance of winning the match and they all told me the same thing. It can't be done with a gas gun.
I've gone back and forth in my mind over this subject several times. On the one hand, I think that the best examples of each are going to be comparably accurate, although it is harder to shoot a semi auto accurately. This has led me to question the financial wisdom in having a bolt action trued and blue printed.
On the other hand, I know guys that are pretty seriously into benchrest shooting where you need to shoot an aggregate of a .17" group for three five round groups to even have a chance of winning the match and they all told me the same thing. It can't be done with a gas gun.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but every competition shooter and record has been set with a lot gun. I'm just assuming this from what I've read and the little experience I have from matches, so feel free to correct me.
This makes me think semi's will never be as accurate as bolts.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but every competition shooter and record has been set with a lot gun. I'm just assuming this from what I've read and the little experience I have from matches, so feel free to correct me.
This makes me think semi's will never be as accurate as bolts.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman021</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct me if I'm wrong, but every competition shooter and record has been set with a lot gun. I'm just assuming this from what I've read and the little experience I have from matches, so feel free to correct me.
This makes me think semi's will never be as accurate as bolts. </div></div>
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman021</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct me if I'm wrong, but every competition shooter and record has been set with a lot gun. I'm just assuming this from what I've read and the little experience I have from matches, so feel free to correct me.
This makes me think semi's will never be as accurate as bolts. </div></div>
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman021</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct me if I'm wrong, but every competition shooter and record has been set with a lot gun. I'm just assuming this from what I've read and the little experience I have from matches, so feel free to correct me.
This makes me think semi's will never be as accurate as bolts. </div></div>
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst. </div></div>
There's a good chance I won't be around to see it, and I've only been around 18 years.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gman021</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Correct me if I'm wrong, but every competition shooter and record has been set with a lot gun. I'm just assuming this from what I've read and the little experience I have from matches, so feel free to correct me.
This makes me think semi's will never be as accurate as bolts. </div></div>
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst.
There's a good chance I won't be around to see it, and I've only been around 18 years.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst. </div></div>
You mean like these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXECU3YKMfI
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst.
You mean like these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXECU3YKMfI
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K2Ballistics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst. </div></div>
You mean like these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXECU3YKMfI </div></div>
I found out these guys are down the block from me when I was searching for an FFL to do transfers. Same building as my accountant.
Biggest difference you will see between a bolt and a gas gun for practical purposes is that you can get a sub moa bolt gun for MUCH...MUCH less than a reliable sub moa gas gun. Larue OBR is ~3.3K now, not sure how much the GAP-10 is but probably no slouch either, versus a 700 off the shelf you can get lucky sometimes. I bought a trash SPS from dicks in the mall for ~$450 on sale a couple of years ago and it shot a little under a minute with 168 GMM and a shitty hogue stock.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K2Ballistics</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RotARy15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
History has shown us that the only way to accurately predict the future is to say the impossible will be possible. One day, automatic electronically fired caseless projectile weapons will be able to put down a .1 group with a 3 round burst.
You mean like these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXECU3YKMfI </div></div>
I found out these guys are down the block from me when I was searching for an FFL to do transfers. Same building as my accountant.
Biggest difference you will see between a bolt and a gas gun for practical purposes is that you can get a sub moa bolt gun for MUCH...MUCH less than a reliable sub moa gas gun. Larue OBR is ~3.3K now, not sure how much the GAP-10 is but probably no slouch either, versus a 700 off the shelf you can get lucky sometimes. I bought a trash SPS from dicks in the mall for ~$450 on sale a couple of years ago and it shot a little under a minute with 168 GMM and a shitty hogue stock.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter. </div></div>
+1
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYpatriot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the top examples of each there is little inherent accuracy difference, but a semi requires more attention to the fundamentals and follow through to get the same consistency. I think the difference then is mostly from the shooter. </div></div>
+1
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Bolt action, the bolt doesn't move each time it is fired, resulting in more consistent muzzle velocity.
Gas semi autos have less consistency in each shot, , because the action moves every shot, resulting in less consistency in MV.
This philosophy applies if we're talking about 'consistent accuracy'. the only kinda accuracy I care about, IMHO.
Bolt action, the bolt doesn't move each time it is fired, resulting in more consistent muzzle velocity.
Gas semi autos have less consistency in each shot, , because the action moves every shot, resulting in less consistency in MV.
This philosophy applies if we're talking about 'consistent accuracy'. the only kinda accuracy I care about, IMHO.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Semi has more moving parts is what "some" say but I got a buddy with a AR 10 that can shoot bug holes no problem.... Most good quality gas guns have a selector on them you can shoot one round at a time of need be.
Semi has more moving parts is what "some" say but I got a buddy with a AR 10 that can shoot bug holes no problem.... Most good quality gas guns have a selector on them you can shoot one round at a time of need be.
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Be for people get pissed let me clarify I shoot a bolt DTA!!!! I'm trying to say its mostly the shooter
Be for people get pissed let me clarify I shoot a bolt DTA!!!! I'm trying to say its mostly the shooter
Re: Why is bolt action more accurate than semi?
Pretty much what has been said above. Consistency is the key to reliable accuracy. With a bolt or falling block action, everything is rock solid and the same every time. With a semi, all the moving parts may or may not have returned to the exact same position, rounds may not be in the same location in the roomier chambers, etc.
Pretty much what has been said above. Consistency is the key to reliable accuracy. With a bolt or falling block action, everything is rock solid and the same every time. With a semi, all the moving parts may or may not have returned to the exact same position, rounds may not be in the same location in the roomier chambers, etc.
