they're on sale at Midway. for my 223 whats better Badger 30MM's or Leupold Mk 4 30MMs?
Rifle Scopes why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
- Thread starter razor100
- Start date
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
Oh I have love for em..... Just not the price.
Oh I have love for em..... Just not the price.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
They are good quality rings. I just find TPS and Seekins to be a better value.
They are good quality rings. I just find TPS and Seekins to be a better value.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
I picked up a set uf used Mark 4 30mm for $65. Slight blemish but
overall great shape. No problems. New they are over priced as most "tatical rigs are". IMO.
I picked up a set uf used Mark 4 30mm for $65. Slight blemish but
overall great shape. No problems. New they are over priced as most "tatical rigs are". IMO.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
I have a set I got for about $50 and loved them. But I am not paying the 150+ they want for them now. Even my department has switched over to Seekins and we love them. I want to say they go for $130ish plus shipping a set and they are examples of top class machining.
I have a set I got for about $50 and loved them. But I am not paying the 150+ they want for them now. Even my department has switched over to Seekins and we love them. I want to say they go for $130ish plus shipping a set and they are examples of top class machining.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
Why no love? Because they aren't worth 150$.
Why no love? Because they aren't worth 150$.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good quality rings. I just find TPS and Seekins to be a better value. </div></div>
Leupold MKIV's blow TPS out of the water. Heavy duty construction, 8-40 screws instead of 6x32's, 1/2" military spec captive nuts instead of smaller nuts that come off, cross bolts that don't rotate and are weaver backward compatible, IMO that makes the difference between duty grade and hobby rings.
The flaw with Leupold is that they were an excellent ring in 1988, and now they are a good ring that hasn't much changed (except for aluminum option) in 25 years.
We're bringing out rings in 6-7 weeks that will advance the features found on the current market.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Longshot38</div><div class="ubbcode-body">They are good quality rings. I just find TPS and Seekins to be a better value. </div></div>
Leupold MKIV's blow TPS out of the water. Heavy duty construction, 8-40 screws instead of 6x32's, 1/2" military spec captive nuts instead of smaller nuts that come off, cross bolts that don't rotate and are weaver backward compatible, IMO that makes the difference between duty grade and hobby rings.
The flaw with Leupold is that they were an excellent ring in 1988, and now they are a good ring that hasn't much changed (except for aluminum option) in 25 years.
We're bringing out rings in 6-7 weeks that will advance the features found on the current market.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razor100</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they're on sale at Midway.</div></div>
At $132.99 plus Midway's shipping <span style="font-style: italic">"ream factor"</span>, I'd pass and buy a used set of Mark 4s' (or Badgers') from the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"Options & Accessories for Sale Section"</span></span> here on the Hide'. There's always rings up for sale, and condition varies from <span style="font-style: italic">"Like New"</span> to <span style="font-style: italic">"used & abused"</span>. People's definitions of <span style="font-style: italic">"Like New"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"Excellent"</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic">"Used"</span> can vary widely, so be sure to ask for close-up photos and ask any questions (ring height, are the rings scratched, scraped, or dinged and if they've been "lapped", ect) before committing to buy.
I know a lot of people crap on ebay, so be it. However, I'm always really careful and have never been ripped-off or had any problems with anyone there (unlike over here where I've been ripped-off as well as received merchandise that was not of a condition or pattern described. Anyway, right now there's a USED 30mm Medium set for $100.00 + $5.00 Expedited Shipping, plus several BNIP 30mm Mark 4 rings ranging from $100.00-$125.00 right now. Go to ebay and search for <span style="font-style: italic">"30mm Mark 4"</span> and you'll find them. Good luck.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razor100</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...for my 223 whats better Badger 30MM's or Leupold Mk 4 30MMs? </div></div>
Badger rings seem to be consistently well-machined and are held in high regard, so most people here on the Hide' will say Badger. Personally, I dislike the inward offset of the upper half of the ring on Badgers, and as a testament to Mark 4 ring quality and durability world-class rifle and suppressor designer and manufacturer Tac Ops uses Mark 4 rings over Badger rings unless Badger rings are specified by the ordering Agency/Section Chief/Unit or Team Commander. Also, the edges on Badgers' aren't chamferred and are rather sharp, so even if the rings are torqued to specification the rings may leave marks.
I prefer Mark 4 rings' to Badgers' - Mark 4s' are well-machined and the upper ring halves aren't offset like on Badger Rings. Mark 4 rings don't have the following on the Hide' that Badgers enjoy, but they're excellent and proven. Again, as an example Tac Ops uses Mark 4 rings over Badger rings unless Badgers are specified by the ordering Agency/Section Chief/Unit or Team Commander. And while the edges on Mark 4 rings aren't chamferred those edges are "softer" than on Badgers', lessening the possibility of ring marks <span style="font-style: italic">(as long as the rings have been correctly tightened).</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Leupold Mark 4 34mm (1.06") "High" Rings coated in Birdsong "Tac Ops OD" Green-T:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">NEAR Manufacturing</span></span> machines the finest steel rings around - they're very precisely-machined and have chamferred edges. The only drawback to them is their high cost ($278.00 + Air Mail shipping from Canada is nearly $300.00/pair). NEAR discontinued making 34mm Rings, and now only offers his Alpha Mounts for 34mm applications. Alpha Mounts run $365.00, and Air Mail for one is around $40.00 to the West Coast.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Stainless Steel NEAR Manufacturing</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">34mm "Low" Rings finished in Black Oxide:</span></span>
The nicest aluminum rings I've seen are <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seekins</span></span> - they're wonderfully-designed, extremely-well machined, and beautifully-finished. The edges are chamferred so there are no edges to snag-on, and ring marks are less likely <span style="font-style: italic">when the rings are correctly torqued</span>. To me there are two possible caveats with Seekins Rings: (a) Front-to-back they're a little "wider" than most steel rings and take up a little more room on the scope tube (certain scope and base configurations may not allow optimal eye relief), and (b) While I could never discern any scope movement <span style="font-style: italic">it seems</span> there may be some flex in the Clamp, as I've had Birdsong peel off of the Clamp <span style="font-style: italic">around the Clamp's Screw holes</span> on Seekins Rings. This is with the Clamp Screws torqued to Seekins Ring Clamp Screw specification of 55 in-lbs). Birdsong normally doesn't chip, peel, or flake, so the peeling suggests flex in the Clamp.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seekins 34mm (.970") "High" Rings:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seekins 34mm (.970") "High" Rings coated in Birdsong "Tac Ops OD" Green-T:</span></span>
Keith
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razor100</div><div class="ubbcode-body">they're on sale at Midway.</div></div>
At $132.99 plus Midway's shipping <span style="font-style: italic">"ream factor"</span>, I'd pass and buy a used set of Mark 4s' (or Badgers') from the <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">"Options & Accessories for Sale Section"</span></span> here on the Hide'. There's always rings up for sale, and condition varies from <span style="font-style: italic">"Like New"</span> to <span style="font-style: italic">"used & abused"</span>. People's definitions of <span style="font-style: italic">"Like New"</span>, <span style="font-style: italic">"Excellent"</span>, and <span style="font-style: italic">"Used"</span> can vary widely, so be sure to ask for close-up photos and ask any questions (ring height, are the rings scratched, scraped, or dinged and if they've been "lapped", ect) before committing to buy.
I know a lot of people crap on ebay, so be it. However, I'm always really careful and have never been ripped-off or had any problems with anyone there (unlike over here where I've been ripped-off as well as received merchandise that was not of a condition or pattern described. Anyway, right now there's a USED 30mm Medium set for $100.00 + $5.00 Expedited Shipping, plus several BNIP 30mm Mark 4 rings ranging from $100.00-$125.00 right now. Go to ebay and search for <span style="font-style: italic">"30mm Mark 4"</span> and you'll find them. Good luck.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razor100</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...for my 223 whats better Badger 30MM's or Leupold Mk 4 30MMs? </div></div>
Badger rings seem to be consistently well-machined and are held in high regard, so most people here on the Hide' will say Badger. Personally, I dislike the inward offset of the upper half of the ring on Badgers, and as a testament to Mark 4 ring quality and durability world-class rifle and suppressor designer and manufacturer Tac Ops uses Mark 4 rings over Badger rings unless Badger rings are specified by the ordering Agency/Section Chief/Unit or Team Commander. Also, the edges on Badgers' aren't chamferred and are rather sharp, so even if the rings are torqued to specification the rings may leave marks.
I prefer Mark 4 rings' to Badgers' - Mark 4s' are well-machined and the upper ring halves aren't offset like on Badger Rings. Mark 4 rings don't have the following on the Hide' that Badgers enjoy, but they're excellent and proven. Again, as an example Tac Ops uses Mark 4 rings over Badger rings unless Badgers are specified by the ordering Agency/Section Chief/Unit or Team Commander. And while the edges on Mark 4 rings aren't chamferred those edges are "softer" than on Badgers', lessening the possibility of ring marks <span style="font-style: italic">(as long as the rings have been correctly tightened).</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Leupold Mark 4 34mm (1.06") "High" Rings coated in Birdsong "Tac Ops OD" Green-T:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">NEAR Manufacturing</span></span> machines the finest steel rings around - they're very precisely-machined and have chamferred edges. The only drawback to them is their high cost ($278.00 + Air Mail shipping from Canada is nearly $300.00/pair). NEAR discontinued making 34mm Rings, and now only offers his Alpha Mounts for 34mm applications. Alpha Mounts run $365.00, and Air Mail for one is around $40.00 to the West Coast.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Stainless Steel NEAR Manufacturing</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">34mm "Low" Rings finished in Black Oxide:</span></span>
The nicest aluminum rings I've seen are <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seekins</span></span> - they're wonderfully-designed, extremely-well machined, and beautifully-finished. The edges are chamferred so there are no edges to snag-on, and ring marks are less likely <span style="font-style: italic">when the rings are correctly torqued</span>. To me there are two possible caveats with Seekins Rings: (a) Front-to-back they're a little "wider" than most steel rings and take up a little more room on the scope tube (certain scope and base configurations may not allow optimal eye relief), and (b) While I could never discern any scope movement <span style="font-style: italic">it seems</span> there may be some flex in the Clamp, as I've had Birdsong peel off of the Clamp <span style="font-style: italic">around the Clamp's Screw holes</span> on Seekins Rings. This is with the Clamp Screws torqued to Seekins Ring Clamp Screw specification of 55 in-lbs). Birdsong normally doesn't chip, peel, or flake, so the peeling suggests flex in the Clamp.
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seekins 34mm (.970") "High" Rings:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Seekins 34mm (.970") "High" Rings coated in Birdsong "Tac Ops OD" Green-T:</span></span>
Keith
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
Quite frankly, Leupold has rested on its laurels and reputation for over a decade and has not been at all innovative in its tactical product line until the last two years or so. Their Mark 4 rings and mounts are basically the same as they were in early to mid 90's, with the only change being that they now offer them in aluminum. Meanwhile other mount and ring manufactures have been incredibly innovative, e.g. GDI, Spuhr, ADM, BOBRO, and even Larue Tactical (Gasp).
While some of their latest tactical scope offerings are promising like the Mark 8, Mark 6 (I am watching their Mark 6 line with some keen interest) and even the some of the Mark 4 line, they have had way to many quality issues in the past and are going to have to go a long way to make up for that. Additionally they have been unwilling to listen to people that have been critical of their products and have treated those peoples concerns with an almost arrogant attitude. Hell, they will not even listen to their own employees when they have concerns about the products they are building. They have become like the auto insustry of the late 70's, early 80's.
Most of their "innovative" products of late have either been gimmicky (Their VX-3L line) or a rebranding of earlier products with minor feature upgrades (ugraded lens coatings, click adjustments and the like) but nothing really revolutionary until the last two years or so. They only recently started offering Mil adjustments and have yet to address daylight illumination or illuminated front focal plane scopes. Their utter disregard for the (very vocal) tactical users has done more to hurt them than anything else.
To illustrate, the first two years they manufactured the Redfield Revolution line they lost money on every one they built and they built a huge number of them. That is why everyone thought they were such a great deal. Problem was, they expended so much manufacturing capacity on them, there was little room for anything else. All that to try and break into the lower priced scope market, where they shouldn't have been in the first place.
Also, Leupold seems to be a day late and dollar short on many of their new products. As an example, I give you the DeltaPoint. Prior to the release of the DeltaPoint, the only ones out there were basically the Docktor Optick and the J-Point and the DeltaPoint was on par with those two mini RDS's. The same year they released the DeltaPoint, along comes Trijicon, Insight and few others with their own mini RDS offerings and they are all superior to the Leupold, Docktor and J-Point.
That is, in my opinion, why there is not a lot of love for Leupold anymore, anywhere, and I own a good many of their products. There are a lot of things that they do right, but so many have been tainted by their experience with them that they have simply moved on to other manufacturers that are willing to listen to what the customer has to say. I do hope that their marketing trolls are reading this, maybe they will learn something, but I seriously doubt it.
Quite frankly, Leupold has rested on its laurels and reputation for over a decade and has not been at all innovative in its tactical product line until the last two years or so. Their Mark 4 rings and mounts are basically the same as they were in early to mid 90's, with the only change being that they now offer them in aluminum. Meanwhile other mount and ring manufactures have been incredibly innovative, e.g. GDI, Spuhr, ADM, BOBRO, and even Larue Tactical (Gasp).
While some of their latest tactical scope offerings are promising like the Mark 8, Mark 6 (I am watching their Mark 6 line with some keen interest) and even the some of the Mark 4 line, they have had way to many quality issues in the past and are going to have to go a long way to make up for that. Additionally they have been unwilling to listen to people that have been critical of their products and have treated those peoples concerns with an almost arrogant attitude. Hell, they will not even listen to their own employees when they have concerns about the products they are building. They have become like the auto insustry of the late 70's, early 80's.
Most of their "innovative" products of late have either been gimmicky (Their VX-3L line) or a rebranding of earlier products with minor feature upgrades (ugraded lens coatings, click adjustments and the like) but nothing really revolutionary until the last two years or so. They only recently started offering Mil adjustments and have yet to address daylight illumination or illuminated front focal plane scopes. Their utter disregard for the (very vocal) tactical users has done more to hurt them than anything else.
To illustrate, the first two years they manufactured the Redfield Revolution line they lost money on every one they built and they built a huge number of them. That is why everyone thought they were such a great deal. Problem was, they expended so much manufacturing capacity on them, there was little room for anything else. All that to try and break into the lower priced scope market, where they shouldn't have been in the first place.
Also, Leupold seems to be a day late and dollar short on many of their new products. As an example, I give you the DeltaPoint. Prior to the release of the DeltaPoint, the only ones out there were basically the Docktor Optick and the J-Point and the DeltaPoint was on par with those two mini RDS's. The same year they released the DeltaPoint, along comes Trijicon, Insight and few others with their own mini RDS offerings and they are all superior to the Leupold, Docktor and J-Point.
That is, in my opinion, why there is not a lot of love for Leupold anymore, anywhere, and I own a good many of their products. There are a lot of things that they do right, but so many have been tainted by their experience with them that they have simply moved on to other manufacturers that are willing to listen to what the customer has to say. I do hope that their marketing trolls are reading this, maybe they will learn something, but I seriously doubt it.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
Its a scope ring and they work well and can take a pounding. Why change? Who cares if a scope ring is innovative as long as it holds my scope on my rifle
Its a scope ring and they work well and can take a pounding. Why change? Who cares if a scope ring is innovative as long as it holds my scope on my rifle
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 317millhand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its a scope ring and they work well and can take a pounding. Why change? Who cares if a scope ring is innovative as long as it holds my scope on my rifle </div></div>
With an attitude like that might as well sell off everything you own and purchase stuff from the 40's/50's and 60's. Its called innovation, I am glad we have it because my new Spuhr 30mm cantilever AR mount is simply BADASS!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 317millhand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its a scope ring and they work well and can take a pounding. Why change? Who cares if a scope ring is innovative as long as it holds my scope on my rifle </div></div>
With an attitude like that might as well sell off everything you own and purchase stuff from the 40's/50's and 60's. Its called innovation, I am glad we have it because my new Spuhr 30mm cantilever AR mount is simply BADASS!
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
I love the MK4 rings. Have one set used for duty since 1980s and never a problem.
Many great ring options out there. Badger, NXS etc are all great options.
Look them all over and buy what you like. You wont go wrong with three I mentioned
I love the MK4 rings. Have one set used for duty since 1980s and never a problem.
Many great ring options out there. Badger, NXS etc are all great options.
Look them all over and buy what you like. You wont go wrong with three I mentioned
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
I like my rings to be squared to the rifle, all the EGW, leupold and one set of badger had to have more than a couple of MOA of windage on brand new scopes reducing the amount of elevation. The leupy were the worse with one set needing 5 3/4 MOA.
I found a local scope ring manufacturer that has matched sets, after trying a couple of theirs and needing less than 2 click for windage i will never use any other scope rings.
I like my rings to be squared to the rifle, all the EGW, leupold and one set of badger had to have more than a couple of MOA of windage on brand new scopes reducing the amount of elevation. The leupy were the worse with one set needing 5 3/4 MOA.
I found a local scope ring manufacturer that has matched sets, after trying a couple of theirs and needing less than 2 click for windage i will never use any other scope rings.
Re: why not more love for the Leupold MK 4 rings?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Craven Morehead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite frankly, Leupold has rested on its laurels and reputation for over a decade and has not been at all innovative in its tactical product line until the last two years or so. Their Mark 4 rings and mounts are basically the same as they were in early to mid 90's, with the only change being that they now offer them in aluminum. Meanwhile other mount and ring manufactures have been incredibly innovative, e.g. GDI, Spuhr, ADM, BOBRO, and even Larue Tactical (Gasp).
While some of their latest tactical scope offerings are promising like the Mark 8, Mark 6 (I am watching their Mark 6 line with some keen interest) and even the some of the Mark 4 line, they have had way to many quality issues in the past and are going to have to go a long way to make up for that. Additionally they have been unwilling to listen to people that have been critical of their products and have treated those peoples concerns with an almost arrogant attitude. Hell, they will not even listen to their own employees when they have concerns about the products they are building. They have become like the auto insustry of the late 70's, early 80's.
Most of their "innovative" products of late have either been gimmicky (Their VX-3L line) or a rebranding of earlier products with minor feature upgrades (ugraded lens coatings, click adjustments and the like) but nothing really revolutionary until the last two years or so. They only recently started offering Mil adjustments and have yet to address daylight illumination or illuminated front focal plane scopes. Their utter disregard for the (very vocal) tactical users has done more to hurt them than anything else.
To illustrate, the first two years they manufactured the Redfield Revolution line they lost money on every one they built and they built a huge number of them. That is why everyone thought they were such a great deal. Problem was, they expended so much manufacturing capacity on them, there was little room for anything else. All that to try and break into the lower priced scope market, where they shouldn't have been in the first place.
Also, Leupold seems to be a day late and dollar short on many of their new products. As an example, I give you the DeltaPoint. Prior to the release of the DeltaPoint, the only ones out there were basically the Docktor Optick and the J-Point and the DeltaPoint was on par with those two mini RDS's. The same year they released the DeltaPoint, along comes Trijicon, Insight and few others with their own mini RDS offerings and they are all superior to the Leupold, Docktor and J-Point.
That is, in my opinion, why there is not a lot of love for Leupold anymore, anywhere, and I own a good many of their products. There are a lot of things that they do right, but so many have been tainted by their experience with them that they have simply moved on to other manufacturers that are willing to listen to what the customer has to say. I do hope that their marketing trolls are reading this, maybe they will learn something, but I seriously doubt it. </div></div>
I hear ya.
A few years back I stopped into Cabela's store outside of Minneapolis, a few days before the MN gun deer season started. Now I usually avoid Cabelas for two reasons, one, their shit is vastly overpriced, and two, the store is almost always over crowded. But for some reason I stopped. After I fought my way tooth and nail through the crowds of people buying new deer rifles, tree stands, blaze orange and scent lures, I finally found the optics. Behind the optics counter were two people, one was a Cabela's employee, the other was a young guy wearing a Leupold shirt. I asked him if he worked for Leupold, he informed me that he was the 'regional representative' or something like that. I asked him why Leupold only offered 3 power magnification on their hunting scopes (3-9, 4-12 ect.) He informed me that no other company made a scope with any higher magnification. I pointed out twenty other scopes in the case that were 2-12x, 3-15x, 3.5-18x, none with the Leupold name. The guy responded that there was no market for any of those scopes. The blind leading those who refuse to see.
As for MK4 rings, I have two pair. They've served me well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Craven Morehead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quite frankly, Leupold has rested on its laurels and reputation for over a decade and has not been at all innovative in its tactical product line until the last two years or so. Their Mark 4 rings and mounts are basically the same as they were in early to mid 90's, with the only change being that they now offer them in aluminum. Meanwhile other mount and ring manufactures have been incredibly innovative, e.g. GDI, Spuhr, ADM, BOBRO, and even Larue Tactical (Gasp).
While some of their latest tactical scope offerings are promising like the Mark 8, Mark 6 (I am watching their Mark 6 line with some keen interest) and even the some of the Mark 4 line, they have had way to many quality issues in the past and are going to have to go a long way to make up for that. Additionally they have been unwilling to listen to people that have been critical of their products and have treated those peoples concerns with an almost arrogant attitude. Hell, they will not even listen to their own employees when they have concerns about the products they are building. They have become like the auto insustry of the late 70's, early 80's.
Most of their "innovative" products of late have either been gimmicky (Their VX-3L line) or a rebranding of earlier products with minor feature upgrades (ugraded lens coatings, click adjustments and the like) but nothing really revolutionary until the last two years or so. They only recently started offering Mil adjustments and have yet to address daylight illumination or illuminated front focal plane scopes. Their utter disregard for the (very vocal) tactical users has done more to hurt them than anything else.
To illustrate, the first two years they manufactured the Redfield Revolution line they lost money on every one they built and they built a huge number of them. That is why everyone thought they were such a great deal. Problem was, they expended so much manufacturing capacity on them, there was little room for anything else. All that to try and break into the lower priced scope market, where they shouldn't have been in the first place.
Also, Leupold seems to be a day late and dollar short on many of their new products. As an example, I give you the DeltaPoint. Prior to the release of the DeltaPoint, the only ones out there were basically the Docktor Optick and the J-Point and the DeltaPoint was on par with those two mini RDS's. The same year they released the DeltaPoint, along comes Trijicon, Insight and few others with their own mini RDS offerings and they are all superior to the Leupold, Docktor and J-Point.
That is, in my opinion, why there is not a lot of love for Leupold anymore, anywhere, and I own a good many of their products. There are a lot of things that they do right, but so many have been tainted by their experience with them that they have simply moved on to other manufacturers that are willing to listen to what the customer has to say. I do hope that their marketing trolls are reading this, maybe they will learn something, but I seriously doubt it. </div></div>
I hear ya.
A few years back I stopped into Cabela's store outside of Minneapolis, a few days before the MN gun deer season started. Now I usually avoid Cabelas for two reasons, one, their shit is vastly overpriced, and two, the store is almost always over crowded. But for some reason I stopped. After I fought my way tooth and nail through the crowds of people buying new deer rifles, tree stands, blaze orange and scent lures, I finally found the optics. Behind the optics counter were two people, one was a Cabela's employee, the other was a young guy wearing a Leupold shirt. I asked him if he worked for Leupold, he informed me that he was the 'regional representative' or something like that. I asked him why Leupold only offered 3 power magnification on their hunting scopes (3-9, 4-12 ect.) He informed me that no other company made a scope with any higher magnification. I pointed out twenty other scopes in the case that were 2-12x, 3-15x, 3.5-18x, none with the Leupold name. The guy responded that there was no market for any of those scopes. The blind leading those who refuse to see.
As for MK4 rings, I have two pair. They've served me well.
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