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Gunsmithing The "Big Fix"

LRI

Lance Criminal
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Mar 14, 2010
    6,311
    7,398
    52
    Sturgis, S. Dakota
    www.longriflesinc.com
    This one was rather interesting.

    Tony H from MI sent me this Lawton action. He'd had it barreled up by another shop. They ran into problems with ejecting a fired case. It was originally built as a 308. The bolt face had been opened up to accommodate a WSM cartridge.

    This created a problem because of the AR style extractor. With the plunger ejector at the 5 o clock position the ejection angle caused the bigger case to hang up in the port.

    So, their solution was to plug the ejector hole on the bolt face and make a rather "unconventional" feature on the port itself. This brings us to the present condition shown in these photos supplied by the owner when he received the barreled action.

    DSCF2177.jpg


    DSCF2176.jpg


    DSCF2161.jpg


    DSCF2173.jpg


    "Livid" doesn't even remotely express his response to what he got. We've got a build in the works for him so he contacted me about trying to work this over and find a more reasonable solution.

    Sight unseen I was hesitant to commit to fixing it, but I encouraged him to send it in anyway.

    So here's what we did and what I ultimately figured out with this piece.

    The sole issue with this gun surrounds the type of extractor and the location of the ejector plunger. Remember, it was built as a 308 which uses a .471 diameter case. The WSM is .545" The extractor is M16 style so it's at the 1 o clock position. this works for the 308 due to the smaller case rim, but it created a port interference with the WSM. Enlarging the port certainly solved the problem, but also complicates the issue with turret clearance on scope.

    -There's been numerous posts on this subject here in the G/S section over the years.

    So, the simple solution is to relocate the ejector. Putting it at 3 o clock changes the ejector angle to a more horizontal arc and this kills all the birds.

    Now onto "undoing" the damage done to the port. The port was only part of the problem. The "real" damage was done when the shop who did this invaded the bolt raceway. It caused the bolt to want to hang up when cycling. -Meaning the rear of the bolt lug was catching the cut and sticking intermittently as you moved it.

    Not cool at all.

    What I did to fix it was a fairly bold move. I have some silver solder here that's pretty dern stout. Its hard stuff when it sets. I sweated a bunch of it into the raceway area and then went about cleaning it up in the mill. Some piddled into the broached way so I had to get busy with a hand file and some emery to clean that up. To give a more conventional appearance to the port I opened it up slightly to blend the previous work.

    Here's the final outcome. I think we came out pretty well on this one.

    DSC_00103.jpg


    DSC_00093.jpg


    DSC_00083.jpg


    DSC_00053.jpg


    DSC_00063.jpg


    As for the shop that did it. Don't ask, I'm not saying anything more about it. Were just glad we got it sorted out and that he can still use the gun.

    Fun stuff!

    Enjoy your Monday germs.

    C.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Good thing that worked for them. Their next step would probably have been to put a hinged gate on one side or maybe a flip-up scope mount. It is shocking what passes as "workmanship" and "gunsmithing" at times these days.

    Nice job on the repair, and I always look forward to seeing what new project you are going to post. One of these days I'll have to give you a call...
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Now I've got to go off and google how to get Silver Solder to build up and fill that much gap...
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I've got to go off and google how to get Silver Solder to build up and fill that much gap...
    </div></div>
    That was my first thought.

    I have filled many a dovetail by Silver Soldering a piece of steel in place on pistol slides for various and sundry purposes but never filled anything with the Silver Solder itself?

    Given that this is someone with the experience of Mr. Dixon I think that there is something for this one to learn here.
    wink.gif
    cool.gif
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    If this was truly silver soldered, more harm was done than good.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this was truly silver soldered, more harm was done than good. </div></div>
    Somebody had to go and tug on Superman's cape!
    laugh.gif
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    are you sure you didn't get those before and after pics reversed?! that looks like some hi-grade professional gunsmithing up top...


    No, not seriously.


    However, Mr. Dixon, That is some outstanding work repairing something that, likely, would have gone to the scrap yard or the bottom of a large body of water had I received it in that condition. That is close enough to the definition of alchemy in my opinion.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Wanna bet?

    I"ll stand behind the work 200%. The owners grandkids will be shooting it. It shipped yesterday so when the owner gets it maybe we will get lucky enough for him to chime in after he has shot it a bit.


    Im inclined to think it'll hammer.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this was truly silver soldered, more harm was done than good.</div></div>

    Care to explain your reasoning...
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Perhaps he meant more harm was done to the silver solder??? Silver solder has "rights" too you know!
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    maybe he meant more harm to the customers wallet. all when the problem should have been fixed by the original perpetrator of the expanded port?

    looks like more nice work
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    If Chad says it'll shoot....it'll shoot.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Pretty damn impressive. I don't know crap about machining but I could have told you that was a bad idea. I know no one wants to badmouth a bussiness. But in the interest of consumer protection. Please tell me this was not a gunsmith we hear talked about on the hide.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Chad, I am surprised you even touched it....surely it was covered in feces after being rammed up the original smiths ejection port.

    Would this whole ordeal not have been avoided with a new bolt in the beginning.....lol.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Varmint Slayer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If this was truly silver soldered, more harm was done than good.</div></div>

    Care to explain your reasoning... </div></div>

    It's very simple. If the flow temp of the silver solder (if it was true silver solder, I.e., braze, roughly a flow temp of 1300 deg F for the good stuuf), the solder itself will have integrity, but the high temp likely has changed the properties of the host material. If the heat leached into the front ring, this is bad and the possibility exists for failure in the ring.

    If the flow temp was low (jeweler grade), the repair will have no integrity over time and it likely won't take long for the repair to look bad after a number of rounds are cycled through it. Nothing actually gained.

    I know everyone here likes to see this type of work, which is truly on a different level, but the reality is, an incapable hack messed up a receiver and a well intentioned and very capable smith opened himself up for quite a bit of liability. Just sayin'.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    I'm pretty sure that Char knows enough about metallurgy and heat flow to have taken proper precautions to avoid letting the front ring/bolt lug region get to warm.

    I personally would have never thought to use silver solder but would have rather made a plug to fit and TIGed it in place , being that this is not a load bearing part it would have have to have been heated to much , just enough for a light build up to machine down for cosmetic detail.

    I have safely and effectively TIG welded a scope base and .500" recoil lug to factory Rem action. The action was fully blueprinted AFTER the welding was done (all before Surgeon was around).
    This action is on its second barrel , first was a 30-06 that was run hot for well over 1000 rounds and curently a 280Ackley that's pushed pretty damn hard and the action has experianced no lug set back issues or front ring expansion.

    was this a good idea ?? NO
    can welding and brazing be done properly and safely ?? YES
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Very well stated and I don't disagree. Problem is, there have been ring failures without heat being applied and I've seen ring ring failures from Melonite, which has a process temp of roughly 920 deg F (although mistakes were made. Not saying a receiver shouldn't be/can't be Melonited).

    Just not worth taking the chance in a sue happy society.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Just for arguements sake let's say the softer solder was used; what's going to wear it out where it was used?
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just for arguements sake let's say the softer solder was used; what's going to wear it out where it was used? </div></div>

    my first guess would be brass cases movin through that port assuming that quality weapon coating was used to pain it

    but if some flat black Krylon was used like what I'm sure the dickhead that milled that mess would use then the pain in the port
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    So basically could've used "bondo" and gotten away w/ it! I just don't see any possible wear like JJ stated!
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Turk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So basically could've used "bondo" and gotten away w/ it! I just don't see any possible wear like JJ stated! </div></div>

    I've seen some pretty crazy shit fixed Devcon titanium putty !!
    high end gas compressors , high pressure pump housings.
    biggest trick is either drilling or machining places for it to form a machanical lock
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Germs:

    The assumptions been made by some that I went blazing into this with a big ol flame and filled the entire cavity with solder.

    I didn't. That would be really dumb. Plus it'd be uber expensive because silver solder is around $15 bucks a stick now.

    The cavity made by the previous shop was machined away. The port was enlarged to resemble a more conventional hunter style port found on any number of actions.

    AS EXPLAINED in the original description the previous work invaded a portion of the raceway. -and as explained alls I did was fill that portion. Its a spot about. 03" thick by about a half inch in length. With the barrel attached to the receiver, you have a heat sink. The risk of annealing the lug surfaces is something im always conscious of when taking on these kinds of jobs. Its not my first rodeo here.

    The keyboard metalurgists will always balk at this stuff no matter what is said. That's fine as im not on a crusade to assimilate the gun community to my way of thinking. -one Chad is plenty.

    Just remeber that every day of every year someone is out there with a torch/tig welder fixing/building stuff that is far more challenging and vital than a Remington clone receiver. A pipe being welded on a nuke sub doesn't result in a trip to the bottom of the ocean.

    Back in the day guys were cutting mausers in half and lengthening the receivers to facilitate big cartridges for African critters. Never heard anyone dying from it so I feel pretty safe and sound about my "big fix".

    TGIF! If this rain quits im goin to the sprint cars tonight!

    C.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> TGIF! If this rain quits im goin to the sprint cars tonight!
    C.</div></div>

    Sprint cars are cool but we need the rain more than the sprint cars at this point so I say let it rain...
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Baah!

    Only one thing trumps Sprint Cars and that's Top Fuel!
    smile.gif


    We do need the "cool off" though for sure. It looked like a scene from Armageddon here Tuesday from the fires down in NewCastle.

    Ash was raining from the sky like snow and visibility was down to less than a mile from the smoke.

    Sucked.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    Yep same over here. It's going to be a long smokey summer at this rate...fire season came a little early this year.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The keyboard metalurgists will always balk at this stuff no matter what is said.

    C. </div></div>

    Not once was I disrespectful or critical. You've apparently lost sight of the fact that this is a public forum and largely opinion based. I respectfully posted my opinion (and spoke highly of your work) based on my observation of your narcissistic bullshit and your need to be fulfilled by people in great need of a hero (Supermans Cape? WTF).

    The "Big Fix" is more aptly the "Huge Gamble" and you're clearly an asshole.

    I'm out.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The keyboard metalurgists will always balk at this stuff no matter what is said.

    C. </div></div>

    Not once was I disrespectful or critical. You've apparently lost sight of the fact that this is a public forum and largely opinion based. I respectfully posted my opinion (and spoke highly of your work) based on my observation of your narcissistic bullshit and your need to be fulfilled by people in great need of a hero (Supermans Cape? WTF).

    The "Big Fix" is more aptly the "Huge Gamble" and you're clearly an asshole.

    I'm out. </div></div>

    Man what a fucktard , do everybody a favor
    take your narrow mind and small dick and so suck start a pistol

    Nobody here needs a super hero , shit I know that their are some guys here I would call a super hero and don't know much more about guns than how to drive them!!

    their are some very very talented people on this board that range from machinist to gun builders to welders to writers.

    Id like to know what qualifications you have to speak on this subject?
    and I don't meen some piece of paper that tells me you spe t way to much of mommy and daddy's money sitting on your ass in a class room with a hangover , I'm talking about years in the field actualy fixing shit with little to nothing to work with
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The keyboard metalurgists will always balk at this stuff no matter what is said.

    C. </div></div>

    Not once was I disrespectful or critical. You've apparently lost sight of the fact that this is a public forum and largely opinion based. I respectfully posted my opinion (and spoke highly of your work) based on my observation of your narcissistic bullshit and your need to be fulfilled by people in great need of a hero (Supermans Cape? WTF).

    The "Big Fix" is more aptly the "Huge Gamble" and you're clearly an asshole.

    I'm out. </div></div>
    LOL... Chad you must of struck a nerve... very nice work BTW.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    Not once was I disrespectful or critical. </div></div>
    Really Champ?
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">The cavity made by the previous shop was machined away. </span>The port was enlarged to resemble a more conventional hunter style port found on any number of actions.</div></div>
    I think that this was the part that was unclear from the pictures and the initial explanation (at least to me).
    That big divot seems to be gone and I read the initial description as that it had all been filled. Not just the small portion that extended into the raceway.

    Makes a lot more sense now. Thanks

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back in the day guys were cutting Mausers in half and lengthening the receivers to facilitate big cartridges for African critters. Never heard anyone dying from it so I feel pretty safe and sound about my "big fix".</div></div>

    A couple of guys in our class both extended and shortened Mauser actions in this way. AFAIK, the came out just fine since nothing affects the area around the lug abutments.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The keyboard metalurgists will always balk at this stuff no matter what is said.

    C. </div></div>

    Not once was I disrespectful or critical. You've apparently lost sight of the fact that this is a public forum and largely opinion based. I respectfully posted my opinion (and spoke highly of your work) based on my observation of your narcissistic bullshit and your need to be fulfilled by people in great need of a hero (Supermans Cape? WTF).

    The "Big Fix" is more aptly the "Huge Gamble" and you're clearly an asshole.

    I'm out. </div></div>


    Narcissistic Bullshit is obviously being confused with a little something called MARKETING.

    Let me tell you how this works killer:

    You do/make something, then tell people about it in the hopes they'll get on board and buy it. Then you make some money, spend some money, and invest it back into yourself to come up with a new widgit that hopefully allows history to repeat itself.

    The narcissist takes this a step further by attempting to squash everyone cause the ego needs to be massaged. If that is what I wanted, doesn't it stand to reason I'd of been the first in line to tell the masses who this other shop was? I've been asked on this forum and in PM's to do that very thing. I've not told anyone.

    Using this as the primer to set the tone, your statement is as perforated as the OJ defense.

    The entire scope/intent behind this thread was to help demonstrate that like a good carpenter, it IS possible to restore/repair guns that have gone tragically wrong.

    It was NEVER the intent to have it derailed into a stupid pissing match over nothing.

    You made speculative/adversarial statements about how bad I must have warped, softened, annealed, distorted a receiver that was so far <span style="font-style: italic">past</span> "fucked", it couldn't get back to "fucked" with a bus ticket. A bold statement made from half a continent away with no knowledge of how it was done, what precautions were made to prevent collateral damage, or the experience/skill level invested to ensure it worked.

    Choice of words dictates the response. It would have been just as easy to say, "hey, I got a question, if silver solder melts around 1300F and steel anneals at this and lower temps, what measures did you take to ensure the lugs weren't softened up?" "I'm struggling to understand how this didn't soften/distort the receiver".

    But you didn't. Instead you said what you said and now were at this point. Congrats, you got your fight.

    For the record: My business is in an industrial park. My next door neighbor manufacturers almost every product with a Badger Ordnance logo. Down the street is Dakota Arms and Nesika Bay Precision. Across the field is Bar Sto Precision, makers of pistol barrels. Then there's Cyle Miller in St Onge, etc. Boiled down it means there's about a thousand years worth of man hour experience spread between the lot of us. We talk, we share ideas, and we help one another. It's a great asset and part of the reason why I chose to set up shop here. Any success I enjoy is largely due to my neighbors being thoughtful enough to share their skills with me and vice versa.

    But of course you knew that already because you obviously have a wealth of knowledge/experience plus the pulse of the industry at your fingertips.

    YOU my friend took the thread in this direction. It wasn't me. Nor did I EVER jump on a box and beat my chest, rip my shirt open to expose a big "S", and start flying around the universe in a pair of tights claiming how great I am to the minions.

    The "BIG FIX" was just that. There wasn't any gamble in this because I have resources that most don't.

    If that makes me an arrogant prick, so be it. Ask that customer what he'd rather have: A pussy who with best intentions fucks it up, or someone with the experience and confidence to make a wrong a right and get him his gun back in better condition than when he sent it.

    Have a great weekend,

    C.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tantrum</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    The keyboard metalurgists will always balk at this stuff no matter what is said.

    C. </div></div>

    Not once was I disrespectful or critical. <span style="font-weight: bold">You've apparently lost sight of the fact that this is a public forum and largely opinion based.</span> I respectfully posted my opinion (and spoke highly of your work) based on my observation of your narcissistic bullshit and your need to be fulfilled by people in great need of a hero (Supermans Cape? WTF).

    The "Big Fix" is more aptly the "Huge Gamble" and you're clearly an asshole.

    I'm out.</div></div>

    I think you may have ate your own logic there buddy. Can he not have his own opinion without being called an asshole?
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    if you look almost all his posts( tantrum ) are inflammatory and or negative. he looks for fights every where he goes.

    i would shoot it right now
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you look almost all his posts( tantrum ) are inflammatory and or negative. he looks for fights every where he goes.

    i would shoot it right now

    </div></div>

    I learn a lot from his posts............I wish Chad would contribute as much knowledge to the board.
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matthias</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    </div></div>
    I learn a lot from his posts............I wish Chad would contribute as much knowledge to the board. </div></div>

    I hope that sarcasm
     
    Re: The "Big Fix"

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">-one Chad is plenty.</div></div>

    One Chad is enough to cause a media circus in florida...