I'm having trouble choosing a .22. I will use this rifle for hunting so it needs to hold 1 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box. I would like to only spend $400 on the rifle. Bolt actions only, preferably those with pre-drilled receivers for scope bases.
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Re: Help choosing a .22
Try a Savage Mark II BTV or one of the other Savage variants. I bought mine new for $335 couple of years ago from Dicks Sporting Goods, and that included a cheap, but serviceable scope. The rifle easily holds 1 MOA at 100 yards with Eley Sport and CCI Blazers. Does even better with SK Std. Plus. My CZ 452 cost a little more than $400 new, and it reliably shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, but only with premium ammo.
Try a Savage Mark II BTV or one of the other Savage variants. I bought mine new for $335 couple of years ago from Dicks Sporting Goods, and that included a cheap, but serviceable scope. The rifle easily holds 1 MOA at 100 yards with Eley Sport and CCI Blazers. Does even better with SK Std. Plus. My CZ 452 cost a little more than $400 new, and it reliably shoots 1 MOA at 100 yards, but only with premium ammo.
L
longguntoter
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Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having trouble choosing a .22. I will use this rifle for hunting so it needs to hold 1 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box. I would like to only spend $400 on the rifle. Bolt actions only, preferably those with pre-drilled receivers for scope bases. </div></div>Well, that's going to be a tough bill to fill. Generally, to get that kind of accuracy out of a .22, it is going to be pretty much a "bench" gun and not so much a "hunting" piece. I have a Mk II Savage that has a bull barrel and the accu-trigger, and it will do 1 MOA @ 100, but its not the kind of gun I would use to go small gaming with. I usually use either a 10/22 or the Marlin Model 60 for that. Just my opinion here, not like I know it all.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having trouble choosing a .22. I will use this rifle for hunting so it needs to hold 1 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box. I would like to only spend $400 on the rifle. Bolt actions only, preferably those with pre-drilled receivers for scope bases. </div></div>Well, that's going to be a tough bill to fill. Generally, to get that kind of accuracy out of a .22, it is going to be pretty much a "bench" gun and not so much a "hunting" piece. I have a Mk II Savage that has a bull barrel and the accu-trigger, and it will do 1 MOA @ 100, but its not the kind of gun I would use to go small gaming with. I usually use either a 10/22 or the Marlin Model 60 for that. Just my opinion here, not like I know it all.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I was looking at buying a 10/22 ( if not now then sometime in the future). If I were to go that route I would only buy the basic carbine for $200 and then upgrade it as I go along. It seems to me that a lot more money needs to be dumped into the 10/22 in order for it to be as accurate as a bolt action Savage/CZ/Marlin. I currently have a Marlin Papoose that I use for hunting within 50 yards. However, I like to take the long shots.
I was looking at buying a 10/22 ( if not now then sometime in the future). If I were to go that route I would only buy the basic carbine for $200 and then upgrade it as I go along. It seems to me that a lot more money needs to be dumped into the 10/22 in order for it to be as accurate as a bolt action Savage/CZ/Marlin. I currently have a Marlin Papoose that I use for hunting within 50 yards. However, I like to take the long shots.
Re: Help choosing a .22
1MOA O/O the box is actually a pretty stiff criterion. 2MOA is more realistic. If you can hit a 2" target at 100yd, no squirrel or 'chuck is going to get swsy at that distance snd tell tales on ya.
Most sporters can do 1" at 50yd, and 2-3" at 100yd, and that's generally well accepted.
A 10/22 with a moderately decent target barrel and stock will do 1/2" at 50yd, and 2" or maybe a bit less at 100yd. You can do better, but it get pricey after that, and the added benefits decrease as the spending increases.
Greg
1MOA O/O the box is actually a pretty stiff criterion. 2MOA is more realistic. If you can hit a 2" target at 100yd, no squirrel or 'chuck is going to get swsy at that distance snd tell tales on ya.
Most sporters can do 1" at 50yd, and 2-3" at 100yd, and that's generally well accepted.
A 10/22 with a moderately decent target barrel and stock will do 1/2" at 50yd, and 2" or maybe a bit less at 100yd. You can do better, but it get pricey after that, and the added benefits decrease as the spending increases.
Greg
Re: Help choosing a .22
I'd second the Savage MKII BTV, that or the MKII FVT. Both are very accurate and are considered target / varmint rifles. I personally don't see an issue with either being used in the field for hunting. I've used a 8.75 pound flintlock for the last 35 years to hunt small game with, so maybe I'm just use to the weight carry of either the MKII BTV & MKII FVT. I do know I'd take either of the one's I have into the field to hunt small game if I ever hang up the old flintlock.
I'd second the Savage MKII BTV, that or the MKII FVT. Both are very accurate and are considered target / varmint rifles. I personally don't see an issue with either being used in the field for hunting. I've used a 8.75 pound flintlock for the last 35 years to hunt small game with, so maybe I'm just use to the weight carry of either the MKII BTV & MKII FVT. I do know I'd take either of the one's I have into the field to hunt small game if I ever hang up the old flintlock.
Re: Help choosing a .22
If ONE MOA rifles were avaiable "out of the box" pre drilled for bases at 400 why would anyone spend the thousands that are spent trying to get that accuracy??
I wonder if your next post will be to locate a S&B quality scope, with H59 reticule for 250?
If ONE MOA rifles were avaiable "out of the box" pre drilled for bases at 400 why would anyone spend the thousands that are spent trying to get that accuracy??
I wonder if your next post will be to locate a S&B quality scope, with H59 reticule for 250?
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you can hit a 2" target at 100yd, no squirrel or 'chuck is going to get swsy at that distance snd tell tales on ya.
Greg </div></div>
True that. If one can shoot to the capability of the rifle, especially under field conditions, most .22 rifles I have tried in recent years will do nicely at 100 yards.
I should add that getting 1 MOA at 100 yards for me, at least, requires a calm day. Wind is not kind to .22 LR bullets.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you can hit a 2" target at 100yd, no squirrel or 'chuck is going to get swsy at that distance snd tell tales on ya.
Greg </div></div>
True that. If one can shoot to the capability of the rifle, especially under field conditions, most .22 rifles I have tried in recent years will do nicely at 100 yards.
I should add that getting 1 MOA at 100 yards for me, at least, requires a calm day. Wind is not kind to .22 LR bullets.
Re: Help choosing a .22
Ammo will play a big part in this as well with the rifle you end up with. Getting good groups at 100 yards with the HV stuff will be a chore, but with the subsonic ammo you have a much better chance of getting to where you want to be.
I personally have never shot 1 MOA at 100 yards even with the subsonic stuff. As Greg posted above, 2 to 3 inches will be more the norm, and it's possible that on good days you could very well come in at under 2 inches, or even under.
Getting the rifle is the easy part, finding the ammo that works best with the rifle is the fun part, and it can also get expensive. However, it's really no different then any other firearm when working up the best load for accuracy. You're just at the mercy of the manufacture of how well they make quality .22lr ammo.
Ammo will play a big part in this as well with the rifle you end up with. Getting good groups at 100 yards with the HV stuff will be a chore, but with the subsonic ammo you have a much better chance of getting to where you want to be.
I personally have never shot 1 MOA at 100 yards even with the subsonic stuff. As Greg posted above, 2 to 3 inches will be more the norm, and it's possible that on good days you could very well come in at under 2 inches, or even under.
Getting the rifle is the easy part, finding the ammo that works best with the rifle is the fun part, and it can also get expensive. However, it's really no different then any other firearm when working up the best load for accuracy. You're just at the mercy of the manufacture of how well they make quality .22lr ammo.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I appreciate all of the help I'm receiving from the people here. I see a lot of guys (in other threads) saying that the CZ rifles are so much better than Savage/Marlin. I would be willing to spend another $100 on a 455. However, I have not been presented with the evidence that this would be of significant benefit. Does anybody care to elaborate on this?
I appreciate all of the help I'm receiving from the people here. I see a lot of guys (in other threads) saying that the CZ rifles are so much better than Savage/Marlin. I would be willing to spend another $100 on a 455. However, I have not been presented with the evidence that this would be of significant benefit. Does anybody care to elaborate on this?
Re: Help choosing a .22
Have you visited the Rimfire Central CZ forum yet?
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18
If not, there is a wealth of information to be found there.
As for the Marlin vs Savage vs CZ debate; accuracy wise with the proper ammo each brand will shoot 1/2 MOA @ 50yds or less. The biggest factor in rimfire accuracy is usually the ammo followed by the ability to modify the trigger. Savage has the Accu-trigger and the CZ's are fairly simple for the average person to modify safely. I have no idea on the Marlin's.
As for fit, finish, and wood quality; when you pick up a Marlin or Savage you have no doubts that you are holding an inexpensive rimfire rifle. The CZ is more on par with the fit, finish, and wood quality of a quality centerfire.
If you can look at all three side by side you should notice the differences. Any of the three brands should be fine dependent on what works best for your needs and budget.
Now if you want to step up in accuracy you'll need a bigger budget and start looking at an Annie, Win 52, ect. Just be warned that rimfires can EASILY become an addiction, as I've found out the past 14months (2 CZ's, 1 Annie, and 1 Win 52B Target).
Have you visited the Rimfire Central CZ forum yet?
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=18
If not, there is a wealth of information to be found there.
As for the Marlin vs Savage vs CZ debate; accuracy wise with the proper ammo each brand will shoot 1/2 MOA @ 50yds or less. The biggest factor in rimfire accuracy is usually the ammo followed by the ability to modify the trigger. Savage has the Accu-trigger and the CZ's are fairly simple for the average person to modify safely. I have no idea on the Marlin's.
As for fit, finish, and wood quality; when you pick up a Marlin or Savage you have no doubts that you are holding an inexpensive rimfire rifle. The CZ is more on par with the fit, finish, and wood quality of a quality centerfire.
If you can look at all three side by side you should notice the differences. Any of the three brands should be fine dependent on what works best for your needs and budget.
Now if you want to step up in accuracy you'll need a bigger budget and start looking at an Annie, Win 52, ect. Just be warned that rimfires can EASILY become an addiction, as I've found out the past 14months (2 CZ's, 1 Annie, and 1 Win 52B Target).
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I see a lot of guys (in other threads) saying that the CZ rifles are so much better than Savage/Marlin. </div></div>
My CZ looks better than my Savage, and both shoot at about the same accuracy level with premium ammo. The Savage, however, is quite accurate even with budget ammo. On the other hand, it appears that CZs retain a higher resale value than the Savage.
My experience would not justify spending extra for a CZ in anticipation of getting much better accuracy than a Savage. But after seeing both and handling them, you may find that you like one more than the other, and that will help you determine whether the CZ is worth a bit more to you.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I see a lot of guys (in other threads) saying that the CZ rifles are so much better than Savage/Marlin. </div></div>
My CZ looks better than my Savage, and both shoot at about the same accuracy level with premium ammo. The Savage, however, is quite accurate even with budget ammo. On the other hand, it appears that CZs retain a higher resale value than the Savage.
My experience would not justify spending extra for a CZ in anticipation of getting much better accuracy than a Savage. But after seeing both and handling them, you may find that you like one more than the other, and that will help you determine whether the CZ is worth a bit more to you.
Re: Help choosing a .22
If you guys can kill squirrels at 100 yards with a two MOA rifle, you have much larger squirrels than I have even seen. On Kansas squirrels, 1MOA will lose some with head shots and body shots are not too effective at 100 yards due to low energy. I have only shot a few thousand over the last 45 years so my just be missing the big headed varity. Too many shooters comment on hunting when they have little expirence or poor observation skills.
If you guys can kill squirrels at 100 yards with a two MOA rifle, you have much larger squirrels than I have even seen. On Kansas squirrels, 1MOA will lose some with head shots and body shots are not too effective at 100 yards due to low energy. I have only shot a few thousand over the last 45 years so my just be missing the big headed varity. Too many shooters comment on hunting when they have little expirence or poor observation skills.
Re: Help choosing a .22
a 22mag or 17hmr is much more effective for small game in the ~100 yard+ arena. I limit 22 to short range hunting and longer range target shooting.
Its by far the most fun gun to shoot. But its not the most capable hunting caliber compared to other cheap more powerful rimfires.
a 22mag or 17hmr is much more effective for small game in the ~100 yard+ arena. I limit 22 to short range hunting and longer range target shooting.
Its by far the most fun gun to shoot. But its not the most capable hunting caliber compared to other cheap more powerful rimfires.
Re: Help choosing a .22
One thing you've got to remember...this is the internet.
You'll hear lots of stories from people claiming they can shoot sub 1MOA 'all day long' with their box stock guns.
Yet usually when you run into these people at the range they are having 'an off day...that's why I'm shooting 2" groups'.
I've got the 93FVSS (heavy barrel, syth stock .22WMR) and on a very good day I can shoot a 1" group (100yds)...out of maybe 5 or 6 tries. To me my average will be 1.5 - 2"...but a lot of people take that one group and say they shoot 1MOA. (a personal gripe of mine).
Also...not to denigrage CZ...they make one damn fine looking rifle. But on the whole, people who own both CZ and Savage will usually tell you that accuracy-wise it's a toss up.
But most who only own CZ's will claim they are far more accurate than their buddies Savage...they have to justify the extra $200 somehow. (though if resale value is a consideration I'd advise the CZ)
Just my two nickels (now that we've gotten rid of the penny in Canada)
One thing you've got to remember...this is the internet.
You'll hear lots of stories from people claiming they can shoot sub 1MOA 'all day long' with their box stock guns.
Yet usually when you run into these people at the range they are having 'an off day...that's why I'm shooting 2" groups'.
I've got the 93FVSS (heavy barrel, syth stock .22WMR) and on a very good day I can shoot a 1" group (100yds)...out of maybe 5 or 6 tries. To me my average will be 1.5 - 2"...but a lot of people take that one group and say they shoot 1MOA. (a personal gripe of mine).
Also...not to denigrage CZ...they make one damn fine looking rifle. But on the whole, people who own both CZ and Savage will usually tell you that accuracy-wise it's a toss up.
But most who only own CZ's will claim they are far more accurate than their buddies Savage...they have to justify the extra $200 somehow. (though if resale value is a consideration I'd advise the CZ)
Just my two nickels (now that we've gotten rid of the penny in Canada)
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having trouble choosing a .22. I will use this rifle for hunting so it needs to hold 1 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box. I would like to only spend $400 on the rifle. Bolt actions only, preferably those with pre-drilled receivers for scope bases. </div></div>
go to your local store and pick up a Savage 17hmr...use 20grn cci fmj bullets and i promise it will hold 1moa... you can buy the rifle for about 275bucks plus tax..without scope... Thats the cheapest most accurate rifle i have ever owned... mine is the el cheap'o version and i promise the rifle can easily hold 1moa... (little to no wind)...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm having trouble choosing a .22. I will use this rifle for hunting so it needs to hold 1 MOA @ 100 yards out of the box. I would like to only spend $400 on the rifle. Bolt actions only, preferably those with pre-drilled receivers for scope bases. </div></div>
go to your local store and pick up a Savage 17hmr...use 20grn cci fmj bullets and i promise it will hold 1moa... you can buy the rifle for about 275bucks plus tax..without scope... Thats the cheapest most accurate rifle i have ever owned... mine is the el cheap'o version and i promise the rifle can easily hold 1moa... (little to no wind)...
Re: Help choosing a .22
The CZ is a very nice gun. I made it out to a local store (Scheels) and fondled a 455 American. The ability to switch calibers has me convinced. In my current position, I'm a big fan of firearms that serve a purpose in multiple applications.
Unfortunately, my stubbornness keeps me from buying anything at Scheels because they tried to bend me over for $1500 for my 5R. And so my search continues.
The CZ is a very nice gun. I made it out to a local store (Scheels) and fondled a 455 American. The ability to switch calibers has me convinced. In my current position, I'm a big fan of firearms that serve a purpose in multiple applications.
Unfortunately, my stubbornness keeps me from buying anything at Scheels because they tried to bend me over for $1500 for my 5R. And so my search continues.
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The CZ is a very nice gun. I made it out to a local store (Scheels) and fondled a 455 American. The ability to switch calibers has me convinced. In my current position, I'm a big fan of firearms that serve a purpose in multiple applications.
Unfortunately, my stubbornness keeps me from buying anything at Scheels because they tried to bend me over for $1500 for my 5R. And so my search continues. </div></div>
Have you considered an online source such as Whitaker's or Bud's if you have issue with your local dealer?
http://www.whittakerguns.com/
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/972/Rifles/CZ+USA+Rifles/CZ+Rimfire
The caliber change option on the 455 is quite handy and Lija has started producing barrels recently if you get bit by the accuracy bug.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The CZ is a very nice gun. I made it out to a local store (Scheels) and fondled a 455 American. The ability to switch calibers has me convinced. In my current position, I'm a big fan of firearms that serve a purpose in multiple applications.
Unfortunately, my stubbornness keeps me from buying anything at Scheels because they tried to bend me over for $1500 for my 5R. And so my search continues. </div></div>
Have you considered an online source such as Whitaker's or Bud's if you have issue with your local dealer?
http://www.whittakerguns.com/
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/972/Rifles/CZ+USA+Rifles/CZ+Rimfire
The caliber change option on the 455 is quite handy and Lija has started producing barrels recently if you get bit by the accuracy bug.
Re: Help choosing a .22
You are not the only one who has had a bad experience at a Scheels store...
I would look at a Savage. I personally have a Savage and after see how my shoots several other people in our local club have also purchased a Savage and I KNOW you will be more than happy with the ability to shoot accurately
I would go with the Mark II TR or TTR-SR... I know these are at the top of your price range, but Great Guns No Matter What
You are not the only one who has had a bad experience at a Scheels store...
I would look at a Savage. I personally have a Savage and after see how my shoots several other people in our local club have also purchased a Savage and I KNOW you will be more than happy with the ability to shoot accurately
I would go with the Mark II TR or TTR-SR... I know these are at the top of your price range, but Great Guns No Matter What
Re: Help choosing a .22
They also had a Mark II TR and a 455 Trainer with the Manners stock at Scheels. The TR fit me nicely. But as nice as they are, both are meant for prone/bench shooting. I need to be able to hunt with this gun as well.
They also had a Mark II TR and a 455 Trainer with the Manners stock at Scheels. The TR fit me nicely. But as nice as they are, both are meant for prone/bench shooting. I need to be able to hunt with this gun as well.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I'm not surprised to see more comments from guys claiming to be shooting MOA at 100 with a box stock something or other with bulk ammunition. These sorts of claims are what lead the uninformed or misinformed to unrealistic expectations.
I shoot thousands of rounds of rimfire every month in a precision format, either from a bench rest or bipod with a rear bag. I've shot more different types of rifles than I can count, from hot rodded Remington 40Xs to some exotics, like Time Precision and some I can't pronounce the names of. Most of the 25 or so guys that I shoot with are shooting rifles costing $2K and more, just for the rifle.
What I've found is this. First, a box stock Savage of any flavor shooting bulk high velocity ammunition is going to get you a consistent 4" or so. Not that you won't do better sometimes. If you start pumping some good ammo through it, like Wolf Match you could probably tighten that up to around 2 to 3". If you get lucky, you may find a particular lot of some good ammo that your rifle really likes that will get you shooting near an inch most of the time.
Shooting consistent MOA or better groups at 100 with a rimfire takes work. I just ran out of ammo that I use for a 100 yard rimfire match that I shoot. I had to test eight lots of Eley black box at $13 a box to find one that my rifle would consistently shoot MOA or better with.
My match rifle is a Remington 40X with a Hart barrel, sitting in a McMillan stock with a Jewel trigger set at 4 oz and getting everything right so that it will do MOA or better all of the time took a lot of work.
With all of my running at the mouth, I haven't even started to mention what the wind does to a .22 bullet. At 50 yards, a 10 mph gust can knock it off by an inch.
Savages are good rifles that shoot pretty well. I have a 10/22 that has out shot every Savage bolt gun that it's shot against. Of course, I have about $800 in the 10/22. Still, from an accuracy perspective, if I had to choose between a CZ and a Savage, I'd go with the Savage. More bang for the accuracy buck.
100 yards is a long way to shoot a .22 with precision accuracy. I'd suggest that you either relax your expectations or, if you need the precision, I'd suggest that you start looking at Savages in .17 HMR. The three that my buddies own consistently shoot around MOA or better with their favored ammo.
I'm not surprised to see more comments from guys claiming to be shooting MOA at 100 with a box stock something or other with bulk ammunition. These sorts of claims are what lead the uninformed or misinformed to unrealistic expectations.
I shoot thousands of rounds of rimfire every month in a precision format, either from a bench rest or bipod with a rear bag. I've shot more different types of rifles than I can count, from hot rodded Remington 40Xs to some exotics, like Time Precision and some I can't pronounce the names of. Most of the 25 or so guys that I shoot with are shooting rifles costing $2K and more, just for the rifle.
What I've found is this. First, a box stock Savage of any flavor shooting bulk high velocity ammunition is going to get you a consistent 4" or so. Not that you won't do better sometimes. If you start pumping some good ammo through it, like Wolf Match you could probably tighten that up to around 2 to 3". If you get lucky, you may find a particular lot of some good ammo that your rifle really likes that will get you shooting near an inch most of the time.
Shooting consistent MOA or better groups at 100 with a rimfire takes work. I just ran out of ammo that I use for a 100 yard rimfire match that I shoot. I had to test eight lots of Eley black box at $13 a box to find one that my rifle would consistently shoot MOA or better with.
My match rifle is a Remington 40X with a Hart barrel, sitting in a McMillan stock with a Jewel trigger set at 4 oz and getting everything right so that it will do MOA or better all of the time took a lot of work.
With all of my running at the mouth, I haven't even started to mention what the wind does to a .22 bullet. At 50 yards, a 10 mph gust can knock it off by an inch.
Savages are good rifles that shoot pretty well. I have a 10/22 that has out shot every Savage bolt gun that it's shot against. Of course, I have about $800 in the 10/22. Still, from an accuracy perspective, if I had to choose between a CZ and a Savage, I'd go with the Savage. More bang for the accuracy buck.
100 yards is a long way to shoot a .22 with precision accuracy. I'd suggest that you either relax your expectations or, if you need the precision, I'd suggest that you start looking at Savages in .17 HMR. The three that my buddies own consistently shoot around MOA or better with their favored ammo.
Re: Help choosing a .22
Many shooters on the forum have made highly exaggerated claims about the accuracy of their firearms out of the box. I was wrongly under the impression (due to these claims) that 1 MOA @ 100 yards is standard precision from a rimfire. I'm not interested in venturing down the Annie trail. Especially when I have unfinished projects to tend too. I do not intend to degrade anyone, it's just not for me. At least at this time.
Many shooters on the forum have made highly exaggerated claims about the accuracy of their firearms out of the box. I was wrongly under the impression (due to these claims) that 1 MOA @ 100 yards is standard precision from a rimfire. I'm not interested in venturing down the Annie trail. Especially when I have unfinished projects to tend too. I do not intend to degrade anyone, it's just not for me. At least at this time.
Re: Help choosing a .22
the biggest limitation to rimfire precision shooting is ammunition. I am sure that if it were practical to hand load rimfire then peoples performance can move into the centerfire world. With that in mind in order to achieve the accuracy that you desire you need to be able to shoot a lot of different ammo, including different lot numbers from the same type to get what you want. Then you need to contact your supplier and they have to be able to sort by lots to fill what needs to be a big order. I know that is what we need to do with the precision small bore shooters I coach. Champions Choice is a good option for purchasing by specific lots...
the biggest limitation to rimfire precision shooting is ammunition. I am sure that if it were practical to hand load rimfire then peoples performance can move into the centerfire world. With that in mind in order to achieve the accuracy that you desire you need to be able to shoot a lot of different ammo, including different lot numbers from the same type to get what you want. Then you need to contact your supplier and they have to be able to sort by lots to fill what needs to be a big order. I know that is what we need to do with the precision small bore shooters I coach. Champions Choice is a good option for purchasing by specific lots...
Re: Help choosing a .22
Man, I'm really not trying to discourage you from trying to do what you want to do. The only point that I was trying to make is that you won't be able to do what you initially said you wanted to with a stock Savage bolt gun and $20 a brick ammo.
A good friend of mine got a Savage TR not too long ago. He took it to the guy that builds our centerfire rifles and had him do a good bedding job on it and we played around with ammo and the torque on the screws and got it shooting pretty darned good. To a point where it wouldn't shoot MOA all of the time, but it did it often enough that we weren't surprised when it happened. This did, of course, require some good ammunition.
If you want to explore this, I'd suggest calling the guys at Killough Shooting Supply and ask them to send you a test brick of Eley Match, in the black. For 100 yard shooting, I got a test brick of ten different lot numbers all of which had a velocity of 1080 or better. For 50 yards, I've found that the lots with velocities of around 1060 worked best.
The faster lots (1080) only require about 6 minutes of elevation to get from 50 to 100, as opposed to the 7 or 8 minutes needed for the slower stuff.
Still, in all honesty, he abandoned the Savage TR project because we built him a 10/22 (similar to mine) using a Kidd barrel and bedding the action by cutting locking lugs into the receiver. In the end, the 10/22 out shot the Savage TR when using the ammunition that each rifle liked best. Of course, after everything was said and done, the 10/22 cost over twice as much as the Savage TR did.
Man, I'm really not trying to discourage you from trying to do what you want to do. The only point that I was trying to make is that you won't be able to do what you initially said you wanted to with a stock Savage bolt gun and $20 a brick ammo.
A good friend of mine got a Savage TR not too long ago. He took it to the guy that builds our centerfire rifles and had him do a good bedding job on it and we played around with ammo and the torque on the screws and got it shooting pretty darned good. To a point where it wouldn't shoot MOA all of the time, but it did it often enough that we weren't surprised when it happened. This did, of course, require some good ammunition.
If you want to explore this, I'd suggest calling the guys at Killough Shooting Supply and ask them to send you a test brick of Eley Match, in the black. For 100 yard shooting, I got a test brick of ten different lot numbers all of which had a velocity of 1080 or better. For 50 yards, I've found that the lots with velocities of around 1060 worked best.
The faster lots (1080) only require about 6 minutes of elevation to get from 50 to 100, as opposed to the 7 or 8 minutes needed for the slower stuff.
Still, in all honesty, he abandoned the Savage TR project because we built him a 10/22 (similar to mine) using a Kidd barrel and bedding the action by cutting locking lugs into the receiver. In the end, the 10/22 out shot the Savage TR when using the ammunition that each rifle liked best. Of course, after everything was said and done, the 10/22 cost over twice as much as the Savage TR did.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I didn't see anyone mention going to a pawnshop or looking for a used gun. Seems to me a way to get more gun same money. I have a CZ453 which if I'm realy on top of my game just might make your criteria with cci ar ammo. I'm not knocking any other make, just what I have.
I didn't see anyone mention going to a pawnshop or looking for a used gun. Seems to me a way to get more gun same money. I have a CZ453 which if I'm realy on top of my game just might make your criteria with cci ar ammo. I'm not knocking any other make, just what I have.
Re: Help choosing a .22
Listen to Tony. You question about the CZ can't be answered. I have ordered rifles at out club to be used in rimfire matches. Two guys would get identical rifles and one would out shoot the other.
I bought two sako's kept one and the other guy's rifle could always do better. The point is when you buy a new rifle you always take the chance of how well is will shoot.
Spend some money on good ammo and wind flags then practice.
At some point when you get a little older you like the rifles that feel good, look good, smooth action and are accurate. All others get sold.
Listen to Tony. You question about the CZ can't be answered. I have ordered rifles at out club to be used in rimfire matches. Two guys would get identical rifles and one would out shoot the other.
I bought two sako's kept one and the other guy's rifle could always do better. The point is when you buy a new rifle you always take the chance of how well is will shoot.
Spend some money on good ammo and wind flags then practice.
At some point when you get a little older you like the rifles that feel good, look good, smooth action and are accurate. All others get sold.
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CZbob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing you've got to remember...this is the internet.
You'll hear lots of stories from people claiming they can shoot sub 1MOA 'all day long' with their box stock guns.
Yet usually when you run into these people at the range they are having 'an off day...that's why I'm shooting 2" groups'.
I've got the 93FVSS (heavy barrel, syth stock .22WMR) and on a very good day I can shoot a 1" group (100yds)...out of maybe 5 or 6 tries. To me my average will be 1.5 - 2"...but a lot of people take that one group and say they shoot 1MOA. (a personal gripe of mine).
Also...not to denigrage CZ...they make one damn fine looking rifle. But on the whole, people who own both CZ and Savage will usually tell you that accuracy-wise it's a toss up.
But most who only own CZ's will claim they are far more accurate than their buddies Savage...they have to justify the extra $200 somehow. (though if resale value is a consideration I'd advise the CZ)
Just my two nickels (now that we've gotten rid of the penny in Canada) </div></div>
ive owned both, Quality is by far superior with the CZ for many reasons. If i have more time i can extrapolate on that.
Accuracy though is pretty similar and savages are typically cheaper. So if cost is an issue that is something to think about.
For me personally, i dont think i will ever buy another savage rimfire unless they majorly revamp them. Maybe i just had bad apples.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CZbob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing you've got to remember...this is the internet.
You'll hear lots of stories from people claiming they can shoot sub 1MOA 'all day long' with their box stock guns.
Yet usually when you run into these people at the range they are having 'an off day...that's why I'm shooting 2" groups'.
I've got the 93FVSS (heavy barrel, syth stock .22WMR) and on a very good day I can shoot a 1" group (100yds)...out of maybe 5 or 6 tries. To me my average will be 1.5 - 2"...but a lot of people take that one group and say they shoot 1MOA. (a personal gripe of mine).
Also...not to denigrage CZ...they make one damn fine looking rifle. But on the whole, people who own both CZ and Savage will usually tell you that accuracy-wise it's a toss up.
But most who only own CZ's will claim they are far more accurate than their buddies Savage...they have to justify the extra $200 somehow. (though if resale value is a consideration I'd advise the CZ)
Just my two nickels (now that we've gotten rid of the penny in Canada) </div></div>
ive owned both, Quality is by far superior with the CZ for many reasons. If i have more time i can extrapolate on that.
Accuracy though is pretty similar and savages are typically cheaper. So if cost is an issue that is something to think about.
For me personally, i dont think i will ever buy another savage rimfire unless they majorly revamp them. Maybe i just had bad apples.
Re: Help choosing a .22
Well I've already mentioned that I won't buy from Scheels. But they are selling a 455 American for $360. I would like to find it from somewhere else and get a price match. Someone mentioned online stores but then I have to pay for shipping and an FFL.
Well I've already mentioned that I won't buy from Scheels. But they are selling a 455 American for $360. I would like to find it from somewhere else and get a price match. Someone mentioned online stores but then I have to pay for shipping and an FFL.
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I appreciate all of the help I'm receiving from the people here. I see a lot of guys (in other threads) saying that the CZ rifles are so much better than Savage/Marlin. I would be willing to spend another $100 on a 455. However, I have not been presented with the evidence that this would be of significant benefit. Does anybody care to elaborate on this?</div></div>
coming from a long time savage guy, and a new 455 owner, i can say with 100% confidense to save the extra $100.00 for the CZ.
savage is good, but that 100.00 extra gives you a rifle that IMO is a "notch" higher in looks and consistancy. can't speak for the 455 american, but can vouch for the varmint.
greg l. spoke the most truth i 've seen in a while, for a sporter in regular conditions, 2" or under at 100 should be the expectation. 1.5" or less is a surprise, 1" or lower is not typical / normal under regular conditions.
455 varmint groups (not "broken in yet" groups, wood stock, stock creepy trigger), 3 different ammos regarded as junk (fed bulk pack), medium (cci std vel), and decent ammo (wolf):
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I appreciate all of the help I'm receiving from the people here. I see a lot of guys (in other threads) saying that the CZ rifles are so much better than Savage/Marlin. I would be willing to spend another $100 on a 455. However, I have not been presented with the evidence that this would be of significant benefit. Does anybody care to elaborate on this?</div></div>
coming from a long time savage guy, and a new 455 owner, i can say with 100% confidense to save the extra $100.00 for the CZ.
savage is good, but that 100.00 extra gives you a rifle that IMO is a "notch" higher in looks and consistancy. can't speak for the 455 american, but can vouch for the varmint.
greg l. spoke the most truth i 've seen in a while, for a sporter in regular conditions, 2" or under at 100 should be the expectation. 1.5" or less is a surprise, 1" or lower is not typical / normal under regular conditions.
455 varmint groups (not "broken in yet" groups, wood stock, stock creepy trigger), 3 different ammos regarded as junk (fed bulk pack), medium (cci std vel), and decent ammo (wolf):
Re: Help choosing a .22
i would suggest a Ruger all the way.
i would suggest a Ruger all the way.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I owned a CZ452 varmint, and currently own a Marlin 60 and an Annie 54. The Marlin feels like a kid's gun. The CZ, while not on the same level as the Annie, feels like a "real" rifle. That alone to me is worth the price difference.
I owned a CZ452 varmint, and currently own a Marlin 60 and an Annie 54. The Marlin feels like a kid's gun. The CZ, while not on the same level as the Annie, feels like a "real" rifle. That alone to me is worth the price difference.
Re: Help choosing a .22
As far as the CZs go, they are nice rifles, but I haven't seen many that really impressed me in the accuracy department; however, there was one guy on this forum that posted some nice groups that he shot with his Lilja barreled CZ. That was impressive.
If you are new to shooting rimfire "seriously" and want to get into a rifle to start with, you could do worse than getting a Savage. You just need to have more realistic expectations. They are a lot of fun to shoot. You can use it to hone your skills.
When you get to a point where you go out and shoot with about the same results all of the time, then you've out grown the rifle.
Heck, I started out shooting a stock 10/22, then a mix of Savages and CZs. Tried an Anschutz 64 action and am now shooting a rigged out 40X.
My point is that you shouldn't get all wrapped up in the MOA thing. Get a rifle and shoot. Who knows, you may get a Savage that likes a particular lot of ammo that will get you 1 to 1.5MOA most of the time and within 2 MOA all of the time. That's good enough to kill golf balls.
As far as the CZs go, they are nice rifles, but I haven't seen many that really impressed me in the accuracy department; however, there was one guy on this forum that posted some nice groups that he shot with his Lilja barreled CZ. That was impressive.
If you are new to shooting rimfire "seriously" and want to get into a rifle to start with, you could do worse than getting a Savage. You just need to have more realistic expectations. They are a lot of fun to shoot. You can use it to hone your skills.
When you get to a point where you go out and shoot with about the same results all of the time, then you've out grown the rifle.
Heck, I started out shooting a stock 10/22, then a mix of Savages and CZs. Tried an Anschutz 64 action and am now shooting a rigged out 40X.
My point is that you shouldn't get all wrapped up in the MOA thing. Get a rifle and shoot. Who knows, you may get a Savage that likes a particular lot of ammo that will get you 1 to 1.5MOA most of the time and within 2 MOA all of the time. That's good enough to kill golf balls.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I can't say much on what is recommended, but I'm saving pennies for the savage.
I can't say much on what is recommended, but I'm saving pennies for the savage.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I own a CZ 452 but do want to purchase another .22
I can say the stock and trigger were awful.
However those can be taken care of as my trigger breaks clean. But still working on the stock.
I own a CZ 452 but do want to purchase another .22
I can say the stock and trigger were awful.
However those can be taken care of as my trigger breaks clean. But still working on the stock.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I wanted a CZ that I could put a tacticool stock on. It was difficult finding a 452 while I was looking for one. If you want a tactical stock on a 455 you have to get creative.
I ended up with a Savage TR and it's a pretty cool rifle.
For hunting a tactical stock would not be a concern for me and a 455 varmint would be my choice. The only reservation I would have is the 'backwards' safety though that may not be an issue for many, and the trigger.
If you want 1" at 100 have you considered a 17 HMR?
Sorry if much of this has already been covered.
I wanted a CZ that I could put a tacticool stock on. It was difficult finding a 452 while I was looking for one. If you want a tactical stock on a 455 you have to get creative.
I ended up with a Savage TR and it's a pretty cool rifle.
For hunting a tactical stock would not be a concern for me and a 455 varmint would be my choice. The only reservation I would have is the 'backwards' safety though that may not be an issue for many, and the trigger.
If you want 1" at 100 have you considered a 17 HMR?
Sorry if much of this has already been covered.
Re: Help choosing a .22
savage makes some really nice .22s
savage makes some really nice .22s
Re: Help choosing a .22
Here you go:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2361742&page=1
Second post on page 1, for those that say the CZ shoots about the same as a Savage. I have to disagree. This is a sub MOA group at 210yds, 5 shots, Federal 922A. I really have no dog in the hunt because I now own an Anschutz 64MPR. I see lots of rifles every month being shot at long range. Out of 15 matches with as many as 40 shooters a Savage is rarely in the top 10. There is very often more than one CZ in the top ten. Many of the CZ owners have now gone to Anschutz which explains the latest match stats and the heavy representation of Anschutz.
Here you go:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2361742&page=1
Second post on page 1, for those that say the CZ shoots about the same as a Savage. I have to disagree. This is a sub MOA group at 210yds, 5 shots, Federal 922A. I really have no dog in the hunt because I now own an Anschutz 64MPR. I see lots of rifles every month being shot at long range. Out of 15 matches with as many as 40 shooters a Savage is rarely in the top 10. There is very often more than one CZ in the top ten. Many of the CZ owners have now gone to Anschutz which explains the latest match stats and the heavy representation of Anschutz.
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm considering the Savage Mark II FV-SR. It seems to be a fairly good buy when you take into account all of its features. They are pretty hard to find though. And the next local gun show won't be until September. </div></div>
Mine came in today. Still in stock at Buds.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/produ...LR+THREADED+BBL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Remmy5R</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm considering the Savage Mark II FV-SR. It seems to be a fairly good buy when you take into account all of its features. They are pretty hard to find though. And the next local gun show won't be until September. </div></div>
Mine came in today. Still in stock at Buds.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/produ...LR+THREADED+BBL
Re: Help choosing a .22
I want a 77/22 wish they still made the 77/22 RS. Who would you guys look to to have open sights on your .22? The thought of buying scopes for several .22's has me discouraged but I think it is probably the better option and will not be that much more money. Might even be cheaper.
I want a 77/22 wish they still made the 77/22 RS. Who would you guys look to to have open sights on your .22? The thought of buying scopes for several .22's has me discouraged but I think it is probably the better option and will not be that much more money. Might even be cheaper.
Re: Help choosing a .22
i have had good results so far with my Savage FV-SR. For 100yd work you may be better off with a 22 Mag or a 17 Mag
i have had good results so far with my Savage FV-SR. For 100yd work you may be better off with a 22 Mag or a 17 Mag
Re: Help choosing a .22
I've got a CZ varmit with the set trigger and I think it would have shot that good before I had the barrel threaded for my suppressor but I don't think it will now. I might have to have the barrel re-crowned. My Ruger 77/22 would shoot that well probably but it only has a 4x scope. Both of those rifles can be bought in my neck of the woods lightly used in your price range.
I've got a CZ varmit with the set trigger and I think it would have shot that good before I had the barrel threaded for my suppressor but I don't think it will now. I might have to have the barrel re-crowned. My Ruger 77/22 would shoot that well probably but it only has a 4x scope. Both of those rifles can be bought in my neck of the woods lightly used in your price range.
Re: Help choosing a .22
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not surprised to see more comments from guys claiming to be shooting MOA at 100 with a box stock something or other with bulk ammunition. These sorts of claims are what lead the uninformed or misinformed to unrealistic expectations.
I shoot thousands of rounds of rimfire every month in a precision format, either from a bench rest or bipod with a rear bag. I've shot more different types of rifles than I can count, from hot rodded Remington 40Xs to some exotics, like Time Precision and some I can't pronounce the names of. Most of the 25 or so guys that I shoot with are shooting rifles costing $2K and more, just for the rifle.
What I've found is this. First, a box stock Savage of any flavor shooting bulk high velocity ammunition is going to get you a consistent 4" or so. Not that you won't do better sometimes. If you start pumping some good ammo through it, like Wolf Match you could probably tighten that up to around 2 to 3". If you get lucky, you may find a particular lot of some good ammo that your rifle really likes that will get you shooting near an inch most of the time.
Shooting consistent MOA or better groups at 100 with a rimfire takes work. I just ran out of ammo that I use for a 100 yard rimfire match that I shoot. I had to test eight lots of Eley black box at $13 a box to find one that my rifle would consistently shoot MOA or better with.
My match rifle is a Remington 40X with a Hart barrel, sitting in a McMillan stock with a Jewel trigger set at 4 oz and getting everything right so that it will do MOA or better all of the time took a lot of work.
With all of my running at the mouth, I haven't even started to mention what the wind does to a .22 bullet. At 50 yards, a 10 mph gust can knock it off by an inch.
Savages are good rifles that shoot pretty well. I have a 10/22 that has out shot every Savage bolt gun that it's shot against. Of course, I have about $800 in the 10/22. Still, from an accuracy perspective, if I had to choose between a CZ and a Savage, I'd go with the Savage. More bang for the accuracy buck.
100 yards is a long way to shoot a .22 with precision accuracy. I'd suggest that you either relax your expectations or, if you need the precision, I'd suggest that you start looking at Savages in .17 HMR. The three that my buddies own consistently shoot around MOA or better with their favored ammo. </div></div>
Thank God, at least one voice from reality in this thread. Thanks for posting Tony. For all who have box stock Savages (or any make for under $400) that shoot moa @ 100.....post pics and have witnesses....and I dont mean one single group. What a joke.
okie.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TonyAngel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not surprised to see more comments from guys claiming to be shooting MOA at 100 with a box stock something or other with bulk ammunition. These sorts of claims are what lead the uninformed or misinformed to unrealistic expectations.
I shoot thousands of rounds of rimfire every month in a precision format, either from a bench rest or bipod with a rear bag. I've shot more different types of rifles than I can count, from hot rodded Remington 40Xs to some exotics, like Time Precision and some I can't pronounce the names of. Most of the 25 or so guys that I shoot with are shooting rifles costing $2K and more, just for the rifle.
What I've found is this. First, a box stock Savage of any flavor shooting bulk high velocity ammunition is going to get you a consistent 4" or so. Not that you won't do better sometimes. If you start pumping some good ammo through it, like Wolf Match you could probably tighten that up to around 2 to 3". If you get lucky, you may find a particular lot of some good ammo that your rifle really likes that will get you shooting near an inch most of the time.
Shooting consistent MOA or better groups at 100 with a rimfire takes work. I just ran out of ammo that I use for a 100 yard rimfire match that I shoot. I had to test eight lots of Eley black box at $13 a box to find one that my rifle would consistently shoot MOA or better with.
My match rifle is a Remington 40X with a Hart barrel, sitting in a McMillan stock with a Jewel trigger set at 4 oz and getting everything right so that it will do MOA or better all of the time took a lot of work.
With all of my running at the mouth, I haven't even started to mention what the wind does to a .22 bullet. At 50 yards, a 10 mph gust can knock it off by an inch.
Savages are good rifles that shoot pretty well. I have a 10/22 that has out shot every Savage bolt gun that it's shot against. Of course, I have about $800 in the 10/22. Still, from an accuracy perspective, if I had to choose between a CZ and a Savage, I'd go with the Savage. More bang for the accuracy buck.
100 yards is a long way to shoot a .22 with precision accuracy. I'd suggest that you either relax your expectations or, if you need the precision, I'd suggest that you start looking at Savages in .17 HMR. The three that my buddies own consistently shoot around MOA or better with their favored ammo. </div></div>
Thank God, at least one voice from reality in this thread. Thanks for posting Tony. For all who have box stock Savages (or any make for under $400) that shoot moa @ 100.....post pics and have witnesses....and I dont mean one single group. What a joke.
okie.
Re: Help choosing a .22
I highly recommend a Savage 93 in .17 HMR.
Regardless of the caliber, if you decide on the Savage be sure to budget for something other than their crappy synthetic stocks. A kydex cheek rest at bare minimum.
I highly recommend a Savage 93 in .17 HMR.
Regardless of the caliber, if you decide on the Savage be sure to budget for something other than their crappy synthetic stocks. A kydex cheek rest at bare minimum.
Re: Help choosing a .22
Savage Mark II FV-SR is a good rifle choice for the money but your expectations are pretty high if you're trying to get a 22LR to do what the center fires do.
1 MOA from a 22LR is like having a .25 MOA 308 rifle. They definitely exist, but for a price.... and they only work as good as the man behind them...
Savage Mark II FV-SR is a good rifle choice for the money but your expectations are pretty high if you're trying to get a 22LR to do what the center fires do.
1 MOA from a 22LR is like having a .25 MOA 308 rifle. They definitely exist, but for a price.... and they only work as good as the man behind them...
