tumbling loaded ammo?

[hofhine1]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
WE NEED LAWS TO PREVENT SUCH FOOLISHNESS! </div></div>

Spoken like a true Californian </div></div>

Well said, yet another robot advocating someone write a law to protect me from myself, right after hoping Darwin will through natural selection cull me from the gene pool.

Good luck with both of those, I've made it this far, and never had a problem yet, and can pretty much guarantee I've loaded more ammo on my 1050 than most folks will load in a lifetime.

Every single round goes in the tumbler afterwords, it comes out when it's shiny enough for me.

Some folks carefully wring their hands over twenty rounds of precision ammo for showing their friends how accurate their mega bolt gun is. I don't have a problem with that, been there, and I have no use to tumble 35 rounds of 6BR for a 1K match, when I can hose em down with windex and wipe with a used diaper.

But lately we get brass by the pound off the range, and load a bunch of stuff up so we can have a bunch of fun with the AR's and not worry about bringing in some new folks that have never shot before.

Carefully read my post before you spout off BB, I'm not advocating, I'm telling a story, anecdotal in nature, and only my story. I'm not saying 'I heard about', I'm giving a life experience. Whether or not the folks at Dillon think it's okay or not probably wouldn't have an effect on you, but it did me, and since I'm willing to throw almost two grand at a press from those folks, I guess I could take their reloading advice, you, I doubt it.

(See if we hear from the peanut gallery the numerous safety violations, first and foremost the 64 pounds of powder directly below the oxy/acet rig!!! But I did move my beer before I took the picture.)



sean

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But I did move my beer before I took the picture.</div></div>The sky is definitely going to fall.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<span style="font-style: italic">"Is this wrong, even with a carbide die does the case needs to be lubed?"</span>

Actually, there's both a "no" and "yes" answer to that. Do we HAVE to lube for carbide handgun dies, certainly not. But does lube mattter? Yes! A little lube sure helps prevent brass galling onto the die and then putting scratches on successive cases.

When carbide dies first became available they were advertized as lubeless but that was because most cases had a thin coat of 'smoke' and a little bullet lube blown back over them so there was enough 'lube' to do all that needed doing. Then came tumblers. Suddenly, making cases squeaky clean - even glittery (dull cases are tarnished, not 'dirty') - became the 'in' thing and soon a lot of perfectly good carbide dies got tossed out or sent back to their maker because they scratched cases. All because of galling, all because of a total lack of case lube. (It's fairly easy to clean the galled brass out and fully restore a sizer, carbide or steel.)

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<span style="font-style: italic">"WHY not to tumble live bullet?"</span>

Welll...how can we tell a "live" bullet from a dead bullet? I've loaded thousands and every one seemed pretty dead but I made live cartridges with them anyway!

The supposed hazards of tumbling live ammo is more theoretical and lawyer boiler plate than reality suggests. As a concept, it logical that given enough time the powder kernels should break down to some degree and that would sure affect burn rate. But, that's theory. Empirical evidence shows it would require a lot of empty space in the case, a very soft powder and days of tumbling in a much more violent tumbler than most of us have to produce any noticable change. I suspect our cans of powder get a lot more vibration during transit from the maker to our local store than a hour or so in our tumblers.

You see the arguments; let everyone do what he wishes and feels comfortable with.

The idea of passing a law to prevent tumbling live ammo seems overkill for something so innoculous; some liberal fools are likely to think handloading itself should be outlawed - oh wait ... they already do! And, at least in California, lead bullets have already been outlawed - to save the condors, you know!

 

[Rprecision]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

I guess I do things backwards becuse I never have had to

Unless the brass is god awful dirty I shoot it with the aresol One Shot and size it. It then gets cleaned and loaded.

I have tumbled some .223 but not by choice, didnt have any problems.

I dont like the practice and would worry more about the primer then the powder. The idea of high pressure is just silly. Your weight charge is not going to change. Its the weight that generates the energy, be it extruded, ball or otherwise.

 

[EddieNFL]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont like the practice and would worry more about the primer then the powder.</div></div>

What do you think would happen if a primer touched off in the tumbler?

 

[hofhine1]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

WE NEED LAWS TO PREVENT SUCH FOOLISHNESS! </div></div>

That was a good place to stop for you, given the fact the best you could do was make some high school style attack against me.

And yes, should you be able to afford the gas to get out of that cesspool and come to 'three roads', or whatever you call it, bring a rifle, any kind, any caliber.

Give me weeks notice and I will pour some ammo off that 'RUBE GOLDBERG' ( whatever that may be) gear, put it into my tumbler for a week and bring it to the range.

Fifty bucks says it will shoot with anything you dare to bring.

One of the reasons I'm fairly careful with my words, is I have my name out there for everyone to see, that makes a big difference in the 'I know every fucking thing there is to know world of the internets'.

I gave anecdotal evidence, and what works for me. As most folks say here, (and if you paid any attention you would know), most folks that tumble loaded ammo on a regular basis have run it through a progressive. Simple fact is, when it rolls in the pan, there's lube on the case. Carbide or not, you won't run any 223 dry into a die and not expect a problem sometime down the road.

I'm open to factual attack all day long, throw the data out there, I'm dying to see.

And I can get you the number to my county code people if that's what you think needs to happen, apparently the new California way is tattle-tattle....

Sure is a long way from when folks risked their lives to pile into to that state to stake their claims back in 1849....
sean

 

[t185]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

Been reloading for almost 20 years. Tens of thousands of rounds every one of the in the tumbler...Still have all my fingers and toes....

Must be lucky. Maybe I'll go play the lottery today.

 

[m41]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been reloading for almost 20 years. Tens of thousands of rounds every one of the in the tumbler...Still have all my fingers and toes....

Must be lucky. Maybe I'll go play the lottery today. </div></div>

Same here. I tumble just about all of my rounds AFTER loading them.

 

[hofhine1]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

I haven't thrown a single insult, but a well placed challenge makes me a 'nutcase, fucking jerk, jerking off 6000 rounds and hour in a wife beater.....

If you must ask public permission of me to go to PM, you don't need to bother coming out here, dude. There's not a bunch I could help you with, and out at three junctions or whatever the fuck you call it, we don't make much time for folks like you any way... We don't hang around with our shiny ammo and ask for more government regulations to keep us safe from ourselves, we're all grown up out in fucking gun nut land. Nor do I take time out of my day to point out various code violations, because that implies I need more government help. Or that's all I have left, is to cry to government mommy to help me.

I'm a little different, I just want to be left the fuck alone by those people to do my thing.

As an aside I took a can out of the shed today and put my wife beater on, drove my truck to three rivers, or whereever Tucson gun nuts hang out and did a quick test.

I bought some demil 50 brass a while back that was primed so I really didn't want to tumble it before loading, (even though I'm a fucking nutcase there is a limit to my insanity) I did tumble ten pieces at a time,(yes this is after I loaded it with powder and a HE tip) overnite in the tumbler, until I had a can full. In the beginiing that rattled me a bit, but only because of the tip, not the primer or the powder involved.

These are loaded pretty calm, nowhere near max, throws a M8 at 2650, and the few that I originally chronoed had some freakishly low ES and SD so I thought it would be an easy shooting load for me and my gun nut, nutcase friends to go fuck with in our wifebeaters out at three roads in pink camo.

Sometimes if I take the big ammo out, I get my 'wido' feelings hurt from the noise, and nearly non-existant recoil.

I got squared up, put two shots down at twelve hundred, made a quick correction and got my can......

And there is 80's vintage Talon brass, 213 grains of WC867, and an old pulled apart M8 from the Carter era I'm sure.
Tumbled for eight hours or so in a (oh he is my God) Dillon tumbler.

Those ten rounds went perfect for vertical, (given what I've come to accept as the limits of the sytem, when you basically throw junk M2 ammo at it). The wind was pretty much a blender of right to left at 20 or so, as the storm was rolling in pretty hard yesterday. So putting every shot on a 20x24 plate at twelve hundred, not even close..

Again, this is anecdotal in nature, unscientific, and it was raining like crazy out at three trails at the wife beater end of the range, but I wanted to know as much after thinking about this for a couple days, as I had never actually shot any of the stuff I tumbled. ( I'm talking 50 here, all the rest I have, by the thousands)

Again, this is life experience, not <span style="font-style: italic">I heard it</span>. You see, us 'fucking jerk, nutcase, wife-beater wearing, goldberg machinery owning, code violating ass-hats out in these parts throw down facts, after that, it's easy to debate because we have a baseline to go from....

If it scares you or you need a permission slip from the county commisioners in your part of the country, by all means, wipe the crap down by hand, I used to, until I was up at the plant on Dillon Rd. in Scottsdale one day, and one of the guys there said he ran his in the tumbler after loading. I guess once you get your own road I have a little different type of respect for you, especially after we saw the minigun.

They know of what they speak, me not so much, I just have what works for me occasionally.


sean

 

[gotsocom?]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total nut job ^ </div></div>


Nut job far from it.A guy that will do anything to help you yes.Someone who will pick you up lend you a gun give you the ammo and pay match fee yes.I know Sean pretty fucken good hell of a nice guy.I've been over to use his 1050 and guess what we tumbled them after they were loaded oh no.Shit i think we even shot a match with them oh we did.They all ran fine being in az with the highest temps think if there ok here they'll work any where.I've read every comment left never once did Sean insult or name call you.You took it there first not cool.For the most part people put what they know or heard YOU trashed every comment you didn't agree with not your FUCKEN thread.Someone else was asking the question people replied.This is'nt facebook.And if your wondering Y I give a shit about the insult.Well Sean helps out a lot of beginner shooters and people who want to shoot but don't have the funds for it.Which in my book is a damn good guy.Probably a lot more than you'll ever do.

 

[loki*hunter]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

The guys at Dillon have "preached" to me that tumbling ammo will not hurt performance and I think they are right.... I have seen no real performance differences all the way out to 800m.

 

[hofhine1]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BuzzBoss915</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Total nut job ^ </div></div>


I actually take that as a compliment from a state that is willing to send Boxer and Feinstein to the senate, and Pelosi to the House.

So when you have no argument you call me a 'Total nut job^'

I'll actually sweeten the deal, bring your shit to wherever the fuck you want in Arizona, (no I will not submit, lay down my high cap mags and my M1A to go to your shithole state) bring a grand in cash, and I'll shoot my tumbled shit in any rifle format you want. We can put both parties money in in escrow and I'll pay a lawyer to draw up the shit.



Simple enough?

This is a shooting board, so there we go......


When you run out of factual position, call people names, works every time.

Take on guys who have been around here since the way old days and see where it goes.

My shitty ass 'goldberg' junk is tired of hearing from folks without facts, just scare tactics, crybaby government loving fuckers yelling for more laws, (like I won't get to hear enough of that shit from your shit bag Senators in the next few weeks), why don't you just let people fucking do whatever the fuck they want, if I blow myself up, <span style="font-weight: bold"> WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU EVEN CARE, YOU DON"T EVEN KNOW ME?</span>

You don't know what I own, how much blood sweat and tears I've poured into making every single thing about rifle shooting the very best I can, and trying to drag every single new shooter I can drag into this game to the range out at three ponds or whatever the fuck you call it and get them on the line shooting something, instead of playing videos, or sitting around playing facebook, in a pretend world I give not a fuck about. I want people to shoot, learn and get something out of it. I shoot high end stuff and junk just to see what works, and play this game like it may make a difference someday.

Because, as a total nut job, I think this will matter someday.

Nothing in my post's were personal, but now my friend you have a choice, put the fuck up or go the fuck away. I put salient, although( and at every point I say) <span style="font-style: italic">anecdotal </span>, (go look it up if you don't know what the fuck it means)info into this thread, back it up with data, again, <span style="font-style: italic">anecdotal in nature </span> backed with the fact I'm willing to risk a nine thousand dollar rifle system in my tests. Not to mention my health is the shit went bad. And you know what, if the shit blew the fuck up, <span style="font-style: italic">I was taking the risk, on my own, willingly, knowing the dangers involved, without a lawyer drafted disclosure, and knowing in advance that this is life and limb, not sitting behind a fucking keyboard talking about government intervention in my personal life. </span>

And to think our founding fathers actually gave their lives and fortunes to give us a country where people now think that i need some government fuck to save me...

From myself.

I hope the fuck I know your name someday, mine is Sean Hofhine, and I'll bet another grand if I do you will never walk on the fucking range at Three Points.

And that my friend you can bank on.......


Sean

 

[hofhine1]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

Just wanted to see if you were willing to throw down some hard earned cash to back your intensive knowledge of the subject, and apparently the 'pink camo' comes from you sifting through my posts in some keyboard commando pose you facebook types have become so fond of.....

So I'll make it even easier, I'll only pick from my wife's guns.

You bring anything you got...

And when you get here, (if you even shoot), when you come to three points, ask Randy where the crazy mother fucker in the red ford is.

I'll most likely be out on the thousand yard line, come on out.

 

[NoFail]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

One time I had some of my shootin' buddies over and we were having a reloading party. We had a couple hundred rounds of loaded .338 in the tumbler because it was ugly. So I had to go take a shit and left them all in the garage by the reload station. I was sitting there in the on the Porcelain God when all the sudden I hears what sounded like loud caps or gunfire or somethin'. "Hmmm, I wonder what that was"?
So when I was finished in the bathroom I went back into the garage and I gotta tell ya' it was all shot up, all my buddies were holed, dead or dying. Tontine day I still don't know what the hell happened but I couldn't find that ammo in the tumbler later, infact tumbler allmshot up. I think the guys who came in and shot the place up, whoever they were, stole it? I dunno, they must have seen how purdy it was and took it... They were using a .338 too because there were spent casings of it all over the place, go figure, but that's what the cops thought to......

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

"<span style="font-style: italic">Actually, I was born in Minnesota, if that helps?"</span>

Ah, a California <span style="font-style: italic">yankee</span>! Yeah, that does explain a lot!

Buzz, if you really want it to die, turn it loose. You've certainly stated how you "feel" and your 'sarcasm' comes across as snarky immaturity. It's been amusing to follow but you aren't changing anyone's mind. It's also clear no one cares what you're frightened of so why not let it go with some measure of grace. ??

 

[leadbullet]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

been tumbling all my reloaded ammo for over 22 years, about 20 minutes to get the lube off, never had a problem or accuracy issues, ever.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?


<span style="font-style: italic">"I can see I'm not needed here. Adios, motherfuckers</span>."

Buzz, I really doubt any of us are "needed here". This forum was going when I came in and it will still be here when I leave; you too. And your exit line alone suggests how much your pleasant and informative posts will be missed. You stepped on your own dick in your first post on this topic (and several more, now deleted I see), then you doubled down when people disagreed, citing valid personal experience against your untested gut reaction. Fact is, experience trumps shouting, everytime.

If you do leave here I'd suggest you show a bit more social graces on other boards because this one certainly isn't unique in how it reacts to caustic personal comments.

 

[TxShooter63]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

It takes quite a bit of lubrication to get my .300 WM cases resized. That leaves allot of residue on my cases and since I reload between 300-900 rounds a month, I really don't want to wipe each one with alcohol. The alcohol method tends to miss some lube and is very time consuming. In addition, it takes really nice looking brass that came out of my stainless steel tumbler and makes it look like crap, which defeats the purpose of using steel media. I run all of my loaded .300WM through corn media in a vibratory tumbler for 30 minutes. The reason I chose 30 minutes is because testing showed it takes that long to remove all the lube. Ammo prepared in this manner consistently shoots well below 1/2" moa, the same as it did when I cleaned it by hand.

I am not telling you to do it or not do it. I don't care. What I do care about is when people say you can or can not do something because of what someone else said. Test things for yourself. The best advice I can give anyone regarding their long range shooting is, "question everything". There is a 20 page discertation on this sight about how you must weigh your bullets and brass prior to reloading for use in a tactical rifle. I have found it possible to achieve sub 1/4" moa in one rifle and sub 3/8" moa in another rifle without weighing either. I think most people would benefit far more by spending their time shooting and learning to read the wind rather than weighing bullets but I am getting off topic.

If your not comfortable throwing live rounds in a tumbler, I completely understand. I wasn't either and in all fairness, the first few times I did this, I took the tumbler outside and limited it to 5 rounds. For all I knew it could set a round off so no, I didn't just start throwing live rounds in a tumbler in my living room. I do limit my tumbler to 20 rounds at a time which I let tumble while I am building the next 50 rounds.

The tumbling along with the rest of my reloading process is now producing the most accurate ammunition I could ever want! The fact that it looks better than factory ammo is just a nice bonus!

 

[hofhine1]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?




<span style="font-style: italic">Wait a minute! ME, immature? What about this other guy and his stupid challenges? </span>


Surely this is some sick joke right?

All I did was put down hard earned facts until you spouted off. Hard earned means bought and paid for in the school of hard knocks, with nothing but time and energy,( even though I have mostly Golberg inspired loading gear and rifle systems), a Rosie O'Donnell assload of my own hard earned cash, some damn good friends on this board, and here in town to help guide me along the way.

Contribute thoughtfully to the board and people like me won't have to act like I do to make you look like a tool.

I only get like I get when people start shit without some type of evidence, either <span style="font-style: italic">anecdotal </span> (i'm sure you have no idea what it means), or scientific, (which most of us with jobs don't really have time to present).

I run through my analysis, giving facts, showing pictures, so people know I'm not some keyboard facebook commando, and present saliant info about what I've learned that <span style="font-style: italic">may</span> help someone else along the way.

I make it a point to not call someone's mental health, drinking ability (or lack thereof), personal problems etc into play, not once, never. Learn something from that or I'll just fuck with you forever, and if you think calling a mod on me scares me, you have <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> got me figured out yet.

But to throw down a challenge with rifles shooting at a target? What the fuck do you think they do every weekend at thousand of ranges across this country every weekend at Garand matches, Roy Dunlap shoots, F-class shoots, thousand yard and mid-range prone matches, smallbore matches, Appleseed shoots and benchrest shoots?


Talk about their facebook pages?

sean

total nut job^ from Tucson

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<span style="font-style: italic">"I am not telling you to do it or not do it. I don't care. What I do care about is when people say you can or can not do something because of what someone else said. Test things for yourself."</span>

Well said. When I first heard the horrofied cautions against tumbling live ammo I accepted it without thinking because it didn't matter to me at all; I'm not a range rat so my ammo quanities are sufficently small for me to wipe lube off by hand. But, over the years, I finally actually THOUGHT about it and decided the fears of tumbling uniquely changing smokeless powder has to be vastly over stated. IF slight viberation actually did any damage to powder kernels inside a case inside a tumbler then the same damage would have to occur during hours of transport of bulk raw powders and factory loaded ammo; it's for sure no one is making anti-shake pads for the stuff to ride on in train cars or trucks.

Thus, so far as detonations or dangerous powder changes from viberation; that myth's BUSTED!

 

[BoloRogue]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

I've tumbled thousands of live rounds (5.56 and 7.62) without noticeable effect. As for powder degradation, this might provide insight. Even though it is from a different site, information should be shared:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/303242_.html&page=1

BR

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: tumbling loaded ammo?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> IF slight viberation actually did any damage to powder kernels inside a case inside a tumbler then the same damage would have to occur during hours of transport of bulk raw powders and factory loaded ammo; it's for sure no one is making anti-shake pads for the stuff to ride on in train cars or trucks.

Thus, so far as detonations or dangerous powder changes from viberation; that myth's BUSTED! </div></div>

And if you think things are bad in a freight truck just think about the cargo area of a C-130, inside a Chinook, or the results of boxes of ammo being pushed out the side of a Blackhawk. Heaven forbid we should fail to isolate boxes mounted on the M240E1 from the vibrations of the vehicle in transit or the actual firing of the weapon.