Rifle Scopes New Benchmark in Optics

[lawofsavage]

It seems to me that the Nightforce NXS series is used as a benchmark or standard by which other scopes are judged. It seems like anything less costly is the mid to lower tier and anything more costly is the upper tier. My question is the design has been around for a while and what do the guys that have been shooting for a while or paying attention to the market see overtaking this as the bench mark. What type of design or new features are people going to see as standard in the future that this doesn't have?



I'm still new to this sport and evaluating optics but I would really like to see where this thread goes.

 

[Twitch2120]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

NF has all the features or the 'top tier' scopes except 'top tier' glass. you want that, pay another $1000. im not sure there is much more you can add to a scope that will make someone else the benchmark any time soon. that said the beast sounds awesome except its stupid expensive. a 5-22 F1 at less than 2500 would be nice.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

That's what I had been gathering about NF as well. It just seems like the NXS line is getting a little old in the tooth and that it might not be the standard for the next decade as well but who knows we are in a recession.....

 

[00bullitt]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch2120</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NF has all the features or the 'top tier' scopes except 'top tier' glass. you want that, pay another $1000. im not sure there is much more you can add to a scope that will make someone else the benchmark any time soon. that said the beast sounds awesome except its stupid expensive. a 5-22 F1 at less than 2500 would be nice. </div></div>

Define "Top Tier" glass

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

My F1s glass is surprisingly GREAT! I've owned S&B and Premier and the F1 doesn't leave much to be desired...except...oh wait!!! MORE MAGNIFICATION!!!

The glass in the F1 seems MUCH better then my older SFP 3-15. I'm guessing they made a nice change in the glass department within the last year or two.

I will say that my NFs have been the most bulletproof reliable scopes i have ever owned. I've had problems with S&B and Premier yet my NF has been flawless. I'm anxiously awaiting the newer NF to be released with more mag so i can spend the money burning holes in my pockets!! HURRY NF!!!

 

[Twitch2120]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch2120</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NF has all the features or the 'top tier' scopes except 'top tier' glass. you want that, pay another $1000. im not sure there is much more you can add to a scope that will make someone else the benchmark any time soon. that said the beast sounds awesome except its stupid expensive. a 5-22 F1 at less than 2500 would be nice. </div></div>

Define "Top Tier" glass </div></div>

most people on here would say German S&B, Henny and Premier all have better glass. ive never compared the 2, hence i put 'top tier' in quotes. if you feel like you need to spend another grand for optics that may be light years better or not is up to you. fact is that the internals and mechanics of the NF stand up with the big name Germans at a better price. that is why NF is the standard. you can do 'better' but you can most definitely do worse.

 

[71firebird400]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

I, humbly, disagree with the notion that German glass is significantly better than NF glass. I've used both scopes, and came to the conclusion that if one was better than the other I wasn't able to tell. However, I am mostly focused on resolution when I'm comparing glass.

 

[onyx1357]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

For the money it is a great scope. Other companies are starting to put turrets that lock. This is nice for when carrying the gun around it doesnt change what you put into the knobs. Also some scopes allow for about 20 moa more travel then the NF

 

[glock24]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Define "Top Tier" glass </div></div>

Anything more expensive than Nightforce

 

[00bullitt]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Define "Top Tier" glass </div></div>

Anything more expensive than Nightforce

</div></div>

Roger that. More Expensive.....always = more better

I ask because its often a very subjective opinion. If people knew the actual measured qualities of optical glass in a telescopic sight for comparative purposes, I often wonder if an individuals opinion would be the same.

There is one thing for sure, every person has different visual acuity and that cannot be argued with.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: glock24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Define "Top Tier" glass </div></div>

Anything more expensive than Nightforce

</div></div>

Roger that. More Expensive.....always = more better

I ask because its often a very subjective opinion. If people knew the actual measured qualities of optical glass in a telescopic sight for comparative purposes, I often wonder if an individuals opinion would be the same.

There is one thing for sure, every person has different visual acuity and that cannot be argued with. </div></div>

You are probably the perfect person to ask if you work for NF. Where do you guys see the market going in LR tactical optics and do you see the NXS still being the standard for the foreseeable future? Do y'all have anything in the developmental stage right now other than the beast?

 

[turbo54]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

My opinion is glass quality of NXSs varies. I've seen some that were OK, some that were quite good, and at least one that was fantastic.

4 guys at my club unanimously agreed my 8-32x56 NXS was superior to my S&B 5-25... ...and that was over the course of a late afternoon into the evening, so full light and low light conditions were tried. Of course, only like magnifications were compared meaning 8-25X

 

[turbo54]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

I think a 5-25 or 5.5-22 or similar FFP with double turn turrets and externally adjustable illumination would make NF a no-brainer - if the price stayed in the realm of the current F1.

It amazes me NF doesn't have a FFP 20-something power scope out. WTF have they been waiting for?

That said, Premier wins on glass, at least to me. Their brightness and contrast is just unmatched. However awesome beautiful glass is, at a certain point it's just a "whose dick is bigger" kind of thing. Yeah yeah, you can't hit what you cant see, but while NF glass doesn't match premier, I don't think I've ever been limited by it.

Can anyone here honestly say they've thought to themselves "gee, I can't hit that, because this NF glass just isn't good enough"??

 

[00bullitt]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

By "define Top Tier glass".....I meant the optical component within the riflescope itself, not the complete package or what it should be.

I was not trying to derail the OP's thread, just trying to understand what folks think and deem makes top tier glass; as a component. Meaning how do you measure what you are looking through and what criteria do you use to judge when making comments as to the quality of what you see?

Nightforce is working diligently to deliver to the market what it would like to see. WE DO listen. Its just not always easy to deliver in the time frames that we would like yet alone our customers.

We are looking forward to SHOT 2013. On behalf of myself and Nightforce Optics, we THANK our loyal customers for supporting us through our growth.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

It will be interesting to see what y'all come out with....

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

I would definitely be interested in the next generation of NF optics...

 

[turbo54]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lawofsavage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would definitely be interested in the next generation of NF optics... </div></div>

Agreed, though I'm concerned the new stuff will be priced beyond the reach of hobbyists like many/most of us.

Content is awesome, but of course it costs money. The key is to properly balance content and cost. Vortex has been doing a great job of this. My impression is NF is more focused on military stuff, which will manifest itself as high cost.

I sure hope to see a higher speed turret, 20-something power, FFP offering in the $2200-2400 zone. I'm not counting on it...hope I'm wrong.

 

[BillyGoatMachine]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

So I just recently found out about the "beast". I've always been under the impression that it was unanimously thought that S&B, Henny, and Premier had better glass than a Nightforce. I wouldn't know, as I've never looked through any of the German scopes or the Premier. So I guess my question is, if the new "beast" will cost north of 3K, will it have the same glass as the current NSX line and just better features? Or will there be a significant improvement in the glass?

By the way, I love my Nightforce optics, all 3 of them

 

[pyplynr]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think a 5-25 or 5.5-22 or similar FFP with double turn turrets and externally adjustable illumination would make NF a no-brainer - if the price stayed in the realm of the current F1.</div></div>


+10000

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

Nightforce is to scopes what Glock is to pistols...........it seems some love them and some hate them. I like them, they just seem like a product that is designed to handle business. I will echo what others have said about wanting more options.

I have never been one to blame my equipment for my misses or slow times. NF scopes are still one of the most popular scopes throughout all the various long range disciplines, and are more than sufficient for me.

 

[00bullitt]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

Food For Thought - the NXS line of scopes is a 10 year old design that has weathered the test of time and been proven to perform reliably and repeatably in the field by both the consumer as well as Military and Law Enforcement.

Other companies are coming out with new product that just now starts to match what the NXS has been doing for the past 10 years.

We have made mechanical improvements over the years. The one thing that has remained constant is the optical prescription. To improve that means a new scope altogether. While the glass is of extreme high quality, it is not current technology ED/HD glass.
The glass in the NXS 5.5-22 is capable of resolution down in the low 2's of Daw's Limit. A Claim that only one or possibly two other scope manufacturers can claim. While color reproduction may not be as pretty as some of our competitors, it does excel in other areas that make a huge difference. Low light performance is still exceptional while our glass has the ability to resolve very fine detail at distance.

All new product coming out will incorporate the latest in optical and mechanical technology. With that latest technology being brought to market, it is difficult to not come to market at an increased cost.

The "BEAST" that everyone has heard about is coming to market as a next generation of Nightforce product. It will be better and utilize innovative technology.

What you guys are asking for in terms of performance, features, and benefits is being heard and we ARE listening.

 

[lawofsavage]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

What % increase in cost do you guys estimate for the line that will replace the NXS?

 

[00bullitt]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lawofsavage</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What % increase in cost do you guys estimate for the line that will replace the NXS? </div></div>

That is information I do not have at this time.

 

[jrob300]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Food For Thought - the NXS line of scopes is a 10 year old design that has weathered the test of time and been proven to perform reliably and repeatably in the field by both the consumer as well as Military and Law Enforcement. </div></div>
I have owned and used NF scopes and from my perspective the NXS is the standard by which other companies should measure where to spend their money. For the intended mission of this scope, the glass is "good enough", which means no additional cost was added to the scope and it is in reach to those who cannot afford "top tier" glass. I personally would have been thrilled with a 5.5-22 NXS in FFP with the glass just the way it is, as I may actually be able to afford it.

I personally believe far too much is made of the quality of glass that we use from day to day in our scopes. There are limits of course, but unless we have special needs that demand certain performance increases, we simply drive up the cost of these scopes needlessly by playing glass wars. Shooting paper, steel plates and rocks does not justify a $4000 scope in my mind. I have a Bushnell DMR G2 that has what I consider to have poor glass. I have yet to miss a target because of it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you guys are asking for in terms of performance, features, and benefits is being heard and we ARE listening.</div></div>

And we are grateful....



John

 

[Moadrifter]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The "BEAST" that everyone has heard about is coming to market as a next generation of Nightforce product. It will be better and utilize innovative technology.

What you guys are asking for in terms of performance, features, and benefits is being heard and we ARE listening.

</div></div>

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as the hide pros, however I did just go through a selection process with hide member advice to choose a top ELR scope so my experience might help (ended up with S&B PMII 5-25x56).

I love all the NXS features and long term field tested reliability except:

SFP instead of FFP (NXS F1 3.5-15x50 was not enough mag and wanted 56mm for low light & contrast performance)
Glass quality - especially contrast and resolution in shade/low light at LR/ELR
Mag range is lower than competition (e.g. S&B goes lower and higher on the PMII 5-25 compared to NXS 5.5-22)

These were the features that disqualified the NF for me (just one man's humble opinion). If you had these features with a price point between the current NXS and the most expensive scopes, I probably would have bought an NF.

I also liked the H2CMR quite a bit better than the NF reticle options, mainly for better mark resolution on follow ups and windage without dialing. This was the other factor. The MOAR reticle is really nice IMO but may be a bit thick (?) and it would be good to have a mil version. The MLR needs more vertical range and for this old man it's nice to have a better indication of which bar you are on (like the MOAR) so you don't have to count too many bars under field stress.

Of course, if this is a wish list then lighter and lower end mag (below 5X without reducing the high end at ~25X) would be really nice too - but may not be possible with the other constraints.

Hope this helps!

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

Sometimes the very things that the masses scream for may not be so good once executed and delivered. I can immediately think of two things that consumers were demanding yet I find them troubling once delivered.

1: High Speed turrets with a Gazillion mils or minutes of travel per revolution.

Original design Mil-Rad turrets had 5 mils of elevation per rev. Clicks had great feel and were somewhat audible. Even in poor light or under time stress, you knew that you had X.X dialed on as soon as your hand left the turret because the markings had good spacing.

Now, the norm is "high speed" turrets with very small visible graduations and very close clicks. Getting the dope you want on the scope in a hurry without double checking just got harder. Most wrists aren't capable of going a complete rev on the turret without releasing and re-grasping anyway. Many of us never had an issue with the old style turrets and the new ones are actually an annoyance when under stress or poor light. I never had an instance where I couldn't set my old style turrets fast enough. To some of us, anything gained by having more clicks/rev is once again lost by having to take an extra second or two to make sure you have what you want on the scope. In the end, it's a wash.

2: FFP design with broad range of magnification.
By definition, FFP designs allow the reticle to always substend a constant value against the image being viewed. When the masses think they want a 2-60X magnification range, they need to think about what can realistically be done with reticle design so that it is usable on both ends of the spectrum.

Design a reticle that doesn't cover a VW Bus on the high magnification settings and that same reticle will hardly be visible on the low magnification settings. Of course the opposite is true if you design a reticle that is easy to see and use on the low settings.

I think eventually, clever reticle designs and other peripheral features will combine to make something usable in these scenarios but in the mean time, it is quite a hurdle to make work in a field environment.

Regarding resolution.....
Several shooters were with me on the Red River levee shooting over the S.O. complex into a target backer at about 530 yards. Sun was to our backs with clear air and no mirage. It was close to sun down but plenty of light. We were shooting at targets stapled to tan cardboard and I could see my .30 Cal. holes. Took a bit of concentration but we could see the impacts even on the tan cardboard and note it in the log book on each shot.

Scope was an NXS 5.5-22x50mm. Another brand of scope on the levee that made all the colors look pretty couldn't see the holes.

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

Note that my comments above are not a criticism of NightForce. On the contrary, they are my preferred rifle scope.

In these competitive markets, NightForce and any other company has to be responsive to what everyone is asking for, even if I am in the minority by disagreeing with the perceived trend.

I am just acknowledging that consumer demand generates some huge technical hurdles that must be negotiated by the manufacturers. I believe they are doing an awesome job under the circumstances and very much look forward to what is around the corner.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

I echo everything Terry just said. Especially the gazillion click knob thing. I think the NF 10 mil knob is a little much honestly. A happy meduim would be 7 or 8 mils. Thats enough to reach 1k with most 260s and 243s yet the spacing won't be as close as the 10 mil knob.

Thats one of my biggest fears with the direction everyone is going. I don't want to see knobs with more then 10 mils in my future and would prefer less.

A nice easy to read reticle on the low end with a thin center for quartering targets on full mag would be nice too. I'm pretty happy with my MLR 2.0 in my F1 right now. Maybe a small xmas tree and a thin center for the higher mag scope and it would be perfect.


00bullitt- last we heard after the NRA show was sometime this fall. Are we looking more like Shot show now? Thanks for coming on here and taking the time to listen to us!!

 

[THibben]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

Terry

Re. You comment about ret design, have a look at the 5-40 FFP March, think it answers your conundrum

Stay safe

Brgds English

 

[turbo54]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

Interesting how some folks like the slower turrets. For me, the double turn is perfect. Mainly, it's a "what revolution am I on?" thing. When engaging multiple targets at widely varying ranges, I want to be on the same revolution the whole time, and I want to see an absolute value of elevation dialed.

 

[Dirtracer151]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting how some folks like the slower turrets. For me, the double turn is perfect. Mainly, it's a "what revolution am I on?" thing. When engaging multiple targets at widely varying ranges, I want to be on the same revolution the whole time, and I want to see an absolute value of elevation dialed. </div></div>

They're not always slower when the clicks on the high speed knobs are soo close together...

My S&Bs vs. my Razor are a perfect example. The time it takes me to get 8 mils on a S&B and line up the extremely fine spacing i could bang the knob on the Razor a full turn + 3 mils and its on the money. The spacing is much further apart and you can find your come-up with just a quick glance at the knob as you're rotating it. It's a wash in the end!

 

[jrob300]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting how some folks like the slower turrets. For me, the double turn is perfect. Mainly, it's a "what revolution am I on?" thing. </div></div>

I was transitioning from shooting mainly ELR to shooting timed steel matches when I first started hearing some dislike for high speed or 10/mil or more turrets. I really didn't begin to have an appreciation for both sides of the argument until I went back to a 5/mil rev scope for a match that I shoot often and was amazed to find it so much less stressful. I'm not sure speed is so much the issue for me as concentration. One less thing to be bothered with.

For dialing out to 2000+ yds. back to 500 then out to a mile, even with no time constraint, I'll still take HS turrets. Lot's of time to set up and verify the elevation and most first round shots wind up being spotters anyway. Less wrist twisting.

John

 

[steve123]

Re: New Benchmark in Optics

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 00bullitt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Food For Thought - the NXS line of scopes is a 10 year old design that has weathered the test of time and been proven to perform reliably and repeatably in the field by both the consumer as well as Military and Law Enforcement.

Other companies are coming out with new product that just now starts to match what the NXS has been doing for the past 10 years.

We have made mechanical improvements over the years. The one thing that has remained constant is the optical prescription. To improve that means a new scope altogether. While the glass is of extreme high quality, it is not current technology ED/HD glass.
The glass in the NXS 5.5-22 is capable of resolution down in the low 2's of Daw's Limit. A Claim that only one or possibly two other scope manufacturers can claim. While color reproduction may not be as pretty as some of our competitors, it does excel in other areas that make a huge difference. Low light performance is still exceptional while our glass has the ability to resolve very fine detail at distance.

All new product coming out will incorporate the latest in optical and mechanical technology. With that latest technology being brought to market, it is difficult to not come to market at an increased cost.

The "BEAST" that everyone has heard about is coming to market as a next generation of Nightforce product. It will be better and utilize innovative technology.

What you guys are asking for in terms of performance, features, and benefits is being heard and we ARE listening.

</div></div>

You stated you were listening so I'm commenting and making my requests known. You have a great product! I know I'm not mentioning anything you don't already know BTW.

I like the reasonably compact size and weight of your scopes!

Those new 10 mil HS knobs are excellent but a wider version would give the customers their desired click spacing. Also a bigger font would be nice.

The Full size ZS is great except a friends gunsmith didn't follow the instructions and removed all 4 screws and messed the turret up. The owner sent it back to NF. I like the compact NXS ZS system is better.

Putting in my vote for 10Y parallax! There are close range stages at tactical matches. Also many rimfire and air rifle shooters that would appreciate this feature.

The glass in my F1 is clearly better,(pun intended) than some older NXS's I've owned??? I was really happy about that!

The illume could use a revamp like on the compact NXS series.

The lock collar for the ocular comes loose sometimes when I'm readjusting the power, usually at the worst possible time, like during a night match.

C'mon man it's almost 2013, can't you give us some clues as to what you have up your sleeve