Can anyone recommend a good method or tutorial for teaching beginners how to read wind? I have been shooting since I was 3, but never really pushed out beyond WV deer range (about 100 meters.) My end goal is to start shooting in TR F class.
- Thread starter mountainman308
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Re: Reading the wind for beginners
First, read up on the Beaufort Wind Force Scale. That will give you some references for judging wind force and velocity.
You can then do some experimentation with the .22LR, slowly extending the distances, and observing the effects of winds whose speeds you have estimated, and comparing those effects between various conditions. At first, make no effort to compensate for the wind, so you can see its uncorrected effect. Then start seeing if you can eliminate those effects by A) adjusting the sights, or, B) aiming toward the upwind side of the target. Both methods will work. Trying to do both can become hopelessly confusing. Learn both, then choose one for each particular situation.
Once you get beyond 50yd, winds has a clearly perceptible effect on the .22LR; much more than it does on a centerfire round. This makes the .22LR far more useful for this kind of experimentation.
I'm positive that others will offer additional useful tools and information on this as well.
There are different ways of thinking about the wind. Some will think of it as an opponent which blows the bullet off target. Some will think of it as an ally which blows the bullet onto the target. Either way, the game is in figuring out where to aim when the wind blows.
Greg
First, read up on the Beaufort Wind Force Scale. That will give you some references for judging wind force and velocity.
You can then do some experimentation with the .22LR, slowly extending the distances, and observing the effects of winds whose speeds you have estimated, and comparing those effects between various conditions. At first, make no effort to compensate for the wind, so you can see its uncorrected effect. Then start seeing if you can eliminate those effects by A) adjusting the sights, or, B) aiming toward the upwind side of the target. Both methods will work. Trying to do both can become hopelessly confusing. Learn both, then choose one for each particular situation.
Once you get beyond 50yd, winds has a clearly perceptible effect on the .22LR; much more than it does on a centerfire round. This makes the .22LR far more useful for this kind of experimentation.
I'm positive that others will offer additional useful tools and information on this as well.
There are different ways of thinking about the wind. Some will think of it as an opponent which blows the bullet off target. Some will think of it as an ally which blows the bullet onto the target. Either way, the game is in figuring out where to aim when the wind blows.
Greg
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Here is a reference specifically on wind reading in a competition setting. It has some pretty good tips and isn't all that much $$$.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Wind-Book-Rifle-Shooters/dp/1581605323
Here is a reference specifically on wind reading in a competition setting. It has some pretty good tips and isn't all that much $$$.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Wind-Book-Rifle-Shooters/dp/1581605323
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Only pigs can see the wind.
Only pigs can see the wind.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
For wind i use aviationweather.gov. it gives wind speeds in knots and tells wind direction (where the wind is coming from actually). if you want the wind velocity in mph then multiply the wind speed (knots) by 1.17 and you are good to go. If you want to know the angle between which you will be shooting and the wind, use a compass and subtract the direction the wind is coming from by the direction you will be shooting. This may seem a little complicated, but it works very well for me. I also may have made it more complicated than it seems. Good luck!
For wind i use aviationweather.gov. it gives wind speeds in knots and tells wind direction (where the wind is coming from actually). if you want the wind velocity in mph then multiply the wind speed (knots) by 1.17 and you are good to go. If you want to know the angle between which you will be shooting and the wind, use a compass and subtract the direction the wind is coming from by the direction you will be shooting. This may seem a little complicated, but it works very well for me. I also may have made it more complicated than it seems. Good luck!
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)
"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
A shooter needs to know the wind velocity in mph and its direction. Observation can help the shooter see the effects of wind to determine both direction and velocity. For example a wind moving loose paper and raising dust would likely be an 8 to 12 mph wind, which could be averaged to 10 mph. The wind direction, relative to the shooter always shooting to 12 o'clock on the wind clock, will provide the wind with a value for the purpose of understanding the amount of sight adjustment necessary to counter for such wind. A wind from 6 to 12 or 12 to 6 o'clock has no value. A wind from 3 to 9 or 9 to 3 has full value. Other directions on the wind clock would be considered half value winds. Once we have velocity and direction we can put the wind value into our wind formula to determine the counter for wind.
A formula which yields an answer in MOA: distance in yards divided by 100 times wind value in mph divided by constant of 10 equals MOA of drift. The use of a constant of 10 is not exact; however, for .223 and .308 it works well at mid and long range.
With just a little practice at the concept as I presented it, the mystery of "wind reading" will be replaced with an actual understanding for what to do about the wind.
A shooter needs to know the wind velocity in mph and its direction. Observation can help the shooter see the effects of wind to determine both direction and velocity. For example a wind moving loose paper and raising dust would likely be an 8 to 12 mph wind, which could be averaged to 10 mph. The wind direction, relative to the shooter always shooting to 12 o'clock on the wind clock, will provide the wind with a value for the purpose of understanding the amount of sight adjustment necessary to counter for such wind. A wind from 6 to 12 or 12 to 6 o'clock has no value. A wind from 3 to 9 or 9 to 3 has full value. Other directions on the wind clock would be considered half value winds. Once we have velocity and direction we can put the wind value into our wind formula to determine the counter for wind.
A formula which yields an answer in MOA: distance in yards divided by 100 times wind value in mph divided by constant of 10 equals MOA of drift. The use of a constant of 10 is not exact; however, for .223 and .308 it works well at mid and long range.
With just a little practice at the concept as I presented it, the mystery of "wind reading" will be replaced with an actual understanding for what to do about the wind.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
I learned a bit about reading wind in sniper school and the NGB MTU's Coaches Clinic.
I thought I had a pretty good handle on it until I shot a 1000 yard match at 29 Palms. We shot next to the AMU's team who won the team match with a 799/800 using service rifles (M14s).
We had to provide scorers for other teams and I decided to score for the AMU team. In scoring team matches, you get right next to their coach so you compare scores eliminationg any disputes.
What you also hear and see, is the Coach's wind and mirage calls he gives to the shooters.
I would check the conditions, make the call in my mind and compare my estimation to that of the AMU coach. I learned a bit about judging wind and mirage that day.
I personally don't think you can get the same value from books or DVDs as you can setting next to a high quility coach.
Even if you can't score for such a team, you can go to an individual match, instead of napping between relays, get out your spotting scope and watch others shoot. Make your calls and compare them to what's happening on the line.
Another way, the method taught in the Coaches Clinic was to get a good shooter, have him shoot your calls, and have another expert coach point out where you went wrong or right. Kind of hard to beat a two on one team. Good shooter making ajustments on your call and a coach correcting you (after the shot).
I learned a bit about reading wind in sniper school and the NGB MTU's Coaches Clinic.
I thought I had a pretty good handle on it until I shot a 1000 yard match at 29 Palms. We shot next to the AMU's team who won the team match with a 799/800 using service rifles (M14s).
We had to provide scorers for other teams and I decided to score for the AMU team. In scoring team matches, you get right next to their coach so you compare scores eliminationg any disputes.
What you also hear and see, is the Coach's wind and mirage calls he gives to the shooters.
I would check the conditions, make the call in my mind and compare my estimation to that of the AMU coach. I learned a bit about judging wind and mirage that day.
I personally don't think you can get the same value from books or DVDs as you can setting next to a high quility coach.
Even if you can't score for such a team, you can go to an individual match, instead of napping between relays, get out your spotting scope and watch others shoot. Make your calls and compare them to what's happening on the line.
Another way, the method taught in the Coaches Clinic was to get a good shooter, have him shoot your calls, and have another expert coach point out where you went wrong or right. Kind of hard to beat a two on one team. Good shooter making ajustments on your call and a coach correcting you (after the shot).
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)</div></div> I have forgotten to say that,notwithstanding that the Author can be a formerly coach,High Master,etc.,I've only talked about something to read,but that can not substitute the help of qualified Instructors_of course_
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)</div></div> I have forgotten to say that,notwithstanding that the Author can be a formerly coach,High Master,etc.,I've only talked about something to read,but that can not substitute the help of qualified Instructors_of course_
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
First, all advice here, so far, from my perspective, is solid. What I see on threads like this however is eventually those with absolutely no comprehension of how to do it will offer uninformed advice drawing from their collection of information previously gleaned from what they heard somewhere. In other words, these folks who have no experience with the concept will confuse the learning shooter, making such a shooter think "wind reading" is too complicated to grasp. My earlier post broke it down to the essentials of what is needed to better assure a good hit than to do nothing. A shooter could begin with this process and progress by keeping a record of the effects for counters made, which Kraig had alluded to.
One thing for sure, sometimes we can give the new shooter too much information to digest. This can overwhelm the new shooter and will thwart his development. When wind and weather effects are placed in context to what's important to good shooting in general, with recognition that some sort of practice schedule will help the shooter to eventually come to an understanding for how to put it all together, the shooter can progress without debilitating stress.
First, all advice here, so far, from my perspective, is solid. What I see on threads like this however is eventually those with absolutely no comprehension of how to do it will offer uninformed advice drawing from their collection of information previously gleaned from what they heard somewhere. In other words, these folks who have no experience with the concept will confuse the learning shooter, making such a shooter think "wind reading" is too complicated to grasp. My earlier post broke it down to the essentials of what is needed to better assure a good hit than to do nothing. A shooter could begin with this process and progress by keeping a record of the effects for counters made, which Kraig had alluded to.
One thing for sure, sometimes we can give the new shooter too much information to digest. This can overwhelm the new shooter and will thwart his development. When wind and weather effects are placed in context to what's important to good shooting in general, with recognition that some sort of practice schedule will help the shooter to eventually come to an understanding for how to put it all together, the shooter can progress without debilitating stress.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
The thing to understand about long range and wind is that nobody gets it all out of a book or DVD, and nobody gets it done completely on their own. Not quickly anyway, and maybe not quickly, ever.
I shot 1Kyd F Class (Open) once a month except for Winter for several years. I got good enough at it that I was at least in the middle of the scoring pack. There's a reason why they call the really good ones 'Masters'.
It is a learned skill, at least as much an art as a science. Its proficiency is directly related to the volume of practice; and it is a perishable skill. If you don't do it for awhile, you'll need to come back up to speed eventually.
It isn't hard to understand, maybe even as simple as visualizing a Cue Ball rolling across a tilted pool table. The key to improvement has its basis in observation and practice. Understand that conditions are almost never constant along the whole length of the trajectory.
You can study the subject in any degree of detail you like, but when you get to the firing line, you have to keep the figuring as simple and quick as possible. If you don't; conditions can change on you before you can apply your solution, generating a miss. This is where repetitive practice becomes essential, so the process can become more instinctive and less computational.
The thing to understand about long range and wind is that nobody gets it all out of a book or DVD, and nobody gets it done completely on their own. Not quickly anyway, and maybe not quickly, ever.
I shot 1Kyd F Class (Open) once a month except for Winter for several years. I got good enough at it that I was at least in the middle of the scoring pack. There's a reason why they call the really good ones 'Masters'.
It is a learned skill, at least as much an art as a science. Its proficiency is directly related to the volume of practice; and it is a perishable skill. If you don't do it for awhile, you'll need to come back up to speed eventually.
It isn't hard to understand, maybe even as simple as visualizing a Cue Ball rolling across a tilted pool table. The key to improvement has its basis in observation and practice. Understand that conditions are almost never constant along the whole length of the trajectory.
You can study the subject in any degree of detail you like, but when you get to the firing line, you have to keep the figuring as simple and quick as possible. If you don't; conditions can change on you before you can apply your solution, generating a miss. This is where repetitive practice becomes essential, so the process can become more instinctive and less computational.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
thanx to all who posted, i have learned a lot more today than the last few years trying to figure it all by myself.
thanx to all who posted, i have learned a lot more today than the last few years trying to figure it all by myself.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Greg,
What prompts you to say this stuff is as much art as it is science? I am a painter. I teach visual arts. I see no corollary between art and wind compensation. I think it's this sort of statement which undermines a new shooters progress, especially if the new shooter does not consider he has any artistic talent. At any rate, the elements and factors of art have nothing in common with the assumptions about what is important to good shooting. A new shooter can learn enough about wind from an effective 15 minute presentation to properly counter for most any wind condition without any background or previous study of the arts.
One more thing, remember B.R.A.S. a simple acronym to help shooters get the job done. I think who ever came up with this did not really think it out. A new shooter could follow this map and still not know where they are, kinda like a topo map which needs some interpretation and expansion to fully grasp. Thing is, attempting to think of wind in art terms is a lot like B.R.A.S. it requires abstract interpretation and expansion of the concept for any understanding of the matter.
Greg,
What prompts you to say this stuff is as much art as it is science? I am a painter. I teach visual arts. I see no corollary between art and wind compensation. I think it's this sort of statement which undermines a new shooters progress, especially if the new shooter does not consider he has any artistic talent. At any rate, the elements and factors of art have nothing in common with the assumptions about what is important to good shooting. A new shooter can learn enough about wind from an effective 15 minute presentation to properly counter for most any wind condition without any background or previous study of the arts.
One more thing, remember B.R.A.S. a simple acronym to help shooters get the job done. I think who ever came up with this did not really think it out. A new shooter could follow this map and still not know where they are, kinda like a topo map which needs some interpretation and expansion to fully grasp. Thing is, attempting to think of wind in art terms is a lot like B.R.A.S. it requires abstract interpretation and expansion of the concept for any understanding of the matter.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,
What prompts you to say this stuff is as much art as it is science? I am a painter. I teach visual arts. I see no corollary between art and wind compensation. I think it's this sort of statement which undermines a new shooters progress, especially if the new shooter does not consider he has an artistic talent. At any rate, the elements and factors of art have nothing in common with the assumptions about what is important to good shooting. A new shooter can learn enough about wind from an effective 15 minute presentation to properly counter for most any wind condition without any background or study of the arts. </div></div>
PLEASE let me know where this 15 minute class is.... I and many like me...who have shot for years...are humbled by the wind.
bill larson
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Greg,
What prompts you to say this stuff is as much art as it is science? I am a painter. I teach visual arts. I see no corollary between art and wind compensation. I think it's this sort of statement which undermines a new shooters progress, especially if the new shooter does not consider he has an artistic talent. At any rate, the elements and factors of art have nothing in common with the assumptions about what is important to good shooting. A new shooter can learn enough about wind from an effective 15 minute presentation to properly counter for most any wind condition without any background or study of the arts. </div></div>
PLEASE let me know where this 15 minute class is.... I and many like me...who have shot for years...are humbled by the wind.
bill larson
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
The wind and weather portion of a marksmanship class I teach takes about 15 minutes to cover. Students can run with this to get good hits on targets at 600 meters, which they would be hard pressed to hit at half the distance before such instruction was delivered. If you have been humbled for years you might want to re think what you think you know. But, make no mistake, understanding the process for making a wind adjustment does not mean you will always accurately appraise the effect of wind. Accurately appraising wind velocity and direction is learned by recording all experiences with the concept. You will get better with proper practice. I understood everything important to good shooting when it was properly presented to me in a class many years ago, which was, as I recall, about 4 hours in duration. Although it showed me how to do it, it still took three seasons of daily practice and shooting in tournamanet every weekend to develop my motor and picture memory skills to earn my LR HM rating.
The wind and weather portion of a marksmanship class I teach takes about 15 minutes to cover. Students can run with this to get good hits on targets at 600 meters, which they would be hard pressed to hit at half the distance before such instruction was delivered. If you have been humbled for years you might want to re think what you think you know. But, make no mistake, understanding the process for making a wind adjustment does not mean you will always accurately appraise the effect of wind. Accurately appraising wind velocity and direction is learned by recording all experiences with the concept. You will get better with proper practice. I understood everything important to good shooting when it was properly presented to me in a class many years ago, which was, as I recall, about 4 hours in duration. Although it showed me how to do it, it still took three seasons of daily practice and shooting in tournamanet every weekend to develop my motor and picture memory skills to earn my LR HM rating.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
I define a science as something which responds to computation, and an art as something which responds to intuition. Wind skills are both, and I think the best at it use a lot of intuition (based on their personal experience).
I don't see this a being in conflict with any of your observations. Similar to my ally/enemy description of the wind, I think there are different vantage points from which to base one's approach to wind compensation.
I know from experience as a system programmer that no computation is any more accurate than the data it receives. Wind assessment requires the observation of something that is largely invisible; we can only infer its presence and condition by observing its effects on other, coincidental environmental markers.
As a system programmer, I know that data assessment errors are going to occur and that my computational outcomes are going to be flawed. I am perforce compelled to apply intuition in an attempt to resolve these inconsistencies.
Therein lies the art. Judgement vs decimals.
Greg
I define a science as something which responds to computation, and an art as something which responds to intuition. Wind skills are both, and I think the best at it use a lot of intuition (based on their personal experience).
I don't see this a being in conflict with any of your observations. Similar to my ally/enemy description of the wind, I think there are different vantage points from which to base one's approach to wind compensation.
I know from experience as a system programmer that no computation is any more accurate than the data it receives. Wind assessment requires the observation of something that is largely invisible; we can only infer its presence and condition by observing its effects on other, coincidental environmental markers.
As a system programmer, I know that data assessment errors are going to occur and that my computational outcomes are going to be flawed. I am perforce compelled to apply intuition in an attempt to resolve these inconsistencies.
Therein lies the art. Judgement vs decimals.
Greg
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Some Guy by the name of Hathcock put the subject into a prospective almost four decades ago. S.W.A.G.
Some Guy by the name of Hathcock put the subject into a prospective almost four decades ago. S.W.A.G.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)</div></div> I have forgotten to say that,notwithstanding that the Author can be a formerly coach,High Master,etc.,I've only talked about something to read,but that can not substitute the help of qualified Instructors_of course_ </div></div>
His books are garbage. Lots of chest pounding, little substance.
Go to your local club that shoots F Class, get cozy with the guys there, and see if you can come shoot some practices with them. BTW you'll need a good spotting scope and stand that lets you use the scope in position for wind reading. Day optics on the rifle are pretty poor for this.
In your area, if you can hook up w Dick Whiting when he is conducting a clinic, he would get you up to speed quickly as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)</div></div> I have forgotten to say that,notwithstanding that the Author can be a formerly coach,High Master,etc.,I've only talked about something to read,but that can not substitute the help of qualified Instructors_of course_ </div></div>
His books are garbage. Lots of chest pounding, little substance.
Go to your local club that shoots F Class, get cozy with the guys there, and see if you can come shoot some practices with them. BTW you'll need a good spotting scope and stand that lets you use the scope in position for wind reading. Day optics on the rifle are pretty poor for this.
In your area, if you can hook up w Dick Whiting when he is conducting a clinic, he would get you up to speed quickly as well.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Thanks ya'll. I am going to start attending the F-class matches near me to pick up some pointers. My rifle will be ready by Christmas, maybe by then I will have absorbed enough to hit a target at 1K.
Thanks ya'll. I am going to start attending the F-class matches near me to pick up some pointers. My rifle will be ready by Christmas, maybe by then I will have absorbed enough to hit a target at 1K.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)</div></div> I have forgotten to say that,notwithstanding that the Author can be a formerly coach,High Master,etc.,I've only talked about something to read,but that can not substitute the help of qualified Instructors_of course_ </div></div>
http://www.jarheadtop.com/Products.htm
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wilecoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"Jim Owens _ Reading The Wind & Coaching Techniques" book or CD _ the business nickname of Mr.Owens is Jahrhead,if that can make easier for you finding his page on the net_ (any of his books/cd DEFINITIVELY WORTH much more than the cheap retail price!)</div></div> I have forgotten to say that,notwithstanding that the Author can be a formerly coach,High Master,etc.,I've only talked about something to read,but that can not substitute the help of qualified Instructors_of course_ </div></div>
http://www.jarheadtop.com/Products.htm
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Some years ago I've buyed his four books and cd,and never regretted the buy_ I know that even if I'm not a top shooter,and never will be,I owe all my shooting satifactions to those few and clearly,not boringly exposed concepts,despite the cheap apparence of the books_ Their real bonus is that,when you read them,your first impulse is "grab your rifle and try";with other books on the same arguments,I fall asleep,period_
Some years ago I've buyed his four books and cd,and never regretted the buy_ I know that even if I'm not a top shooter,and never will be,I owe all my shooting satifactions to those few and clearly,not boringly exposed concepts,despite the cheap apparence of the books_ Their real bonus is that,when you read them,your first impulse is "grab your rifle and try";with other books on the same arguments,I fall asleep,period_
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
As far as books go, I would recommend Nancy Tompkins' book. There is a new edition coming out soon.
http://rifleshootingbynancy.com/index.html
As far as books go, I would recommend Nancy Tompkins' book. There is a new edition coming out soon.
http://rifleshootingbynancy.com/index.html
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Nancy's book is good general reading, with some useful stuff on wind.
For strictly wind-related material, the Wind Book for Rifle shooters (mentioned earlier in this thread) is better. Rather than one individual writer's personal views, the authors (both accomplished competitive LR shooters in their own right) queried a number of subject-matter experts for their takes on various topics. Most of the time they agree, but it is interesting - and informative - to see the slight variations in view points and approaches taken by multiple top-level competitors.
Owens' stuff... is not generally worth the time nor the money, IMO. In addition to what Leo said... the illustrations look like low-grade photo copies of questionable over-head projector sheets. His later stuff might have actually been updated to where it looks less amateurish than the crap I paid money for, but I rather doubt it.
I *highly* recommend the Wind Book, and Nancy's book as well. The new updated version of 'Prone Shooting' is supposed to be out in the next couple of months, and should have some updated material on F-Class based in part on her experiences with the USA F-Class Development Team on the trip to Ireland & Scotland last year. If you can afford both, get both.
YMMV,
Monte
Nancy's book is good general reading, with some useful stuff on wind.
For strictly wind-related material, the Wind Book for Rifle shooters (mentioned earlier in this thread) is better. Rather than one individual writer's personal views, the authors (both accomplished competitive LR shooters in their own right) queried a number of subject-matter experts for their takes on various topics. Most of the time they agree, but it is interesting - and informative - to see the slight variations in view points and approaches taken by multiple top-level competitors.
Owens' stuff... is not generally worth the time nor the money, IMO. In addition to what Leo said... the illustrations look like low-grade photo copies of questionable over-head projector sheets. His later stuff might have actually been updated to where it looks less amateurish than the crap I paid money for, but I rather doubt it.
I *highly* recommend the Wind Book, and Nancy's book as well. The new updated version of 'Prone Shooting' is supposed to be out in the next couple of months, and should have some updated material on F-Class based in part on her experiences with the USA F-Class Development Team on the trip to Ireland & Scotland last year. If you can afford both, get both.
YMMV,
Monte
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
A bit about Kestrel's and other hand held wind meters.
Find a range flag pole, they are normally about 30 foot tall.
Hang a flag at the top of the pole, then hang a second flag about shoulder high, or the height you'll use your wind meter.
You'll see the wind at 30 feet and the wind at shoulder high is as different as night and day.
Now look at your Bal Program and see what the maxium ordinate of your round it at distance. Bet you'll see its closer to 30 feet then 6 feet.
I'm not saying don't use a Kestrel, I'm saying be careful of where you take your wind readings.
A huge benifit of a hand held wind meter is learning to read mirage. Take your spotting scope and look at the mirage, now look at your Kestrel and see what hit says. Turn your scope at different angles, full value, half value, etc etc and again check your Kestrel.
With practice you'll know what the wind value is just from mirage.
A bit about Kestrel's and other hand held wind meters.
Find a range flag pole, they are normally about 30 foot tall.
Hang a flag at the top of the pole, then hang a second flag about shoulder high, or the height you'll use your wind meter.
You'll see the wind at 30 feet and the wind at shoulder high is as different as night and day.
Now look at your Bal Program and see what the maxium ordinate of your round it at distance. Bet you'll see its closer to 30 feet then 6 feet.
I'm not saying don't use a Kestrel, I'm saying be careful of where you take your wind readings.
A huge benifit of a hand held wind meter is learning to read mirage. Take your spotting scope and look at the mirage, now look at your Kestrel and see what hit says. Turn your scope at different angles, full value, half value, etc etc and again check your Kestrel.
With practice you'll know what the wind value is just from mirage.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
His books are garbage. Lots of chest pounding, little substance.
[/quote]to mr.9H_Cracka: Sir,can be I'm not enough trained/qualified to properly answer to you,because my suspicion is that if I can someday fully learn the "little substance" of those books,and put it in all my shooting,AS BEGINNER,I will find myself pounding my chest_but,AS BEGINNER,can be wrong,of course_
His books are garbage. Lots of chest pounding, little substance.
[/quote]to mr.9H_Cracka: Sir,can be I'm not enough trained/qualified to properly answer to you,because my suspicion is that if I can someday fully learn the "little substance" of those books,and put it in all my shooting,AS BEGINNER,I will find myself pounding my chest_but,AS BEGINNER,can be wrong,of course_
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Owens' stuff... is not generally worth the time nor the money, IMO. In addition to what Leo said... the illustrations look like low-grade photo copies of questionable over-head projector sheets. His later stuff might have actually been updated to where it looks less amateurish than the crap I paid money for, but I rather doubt it.
[/quote] to mr.Memilanuk: the illustrations are in line with the plain effort of a single individual to produce by himself ,in a low-cost way, a simple and easy-consulting pocket book FOR A BEGINNER_ I understand how,evidently not being a beginner,you don't like that,even if I wonder how,not being a beginner, you can have buyed it_ best regards
Owens' stuff... is not generally worth the time nor the money, IMO. In addition to what Leo said... the illustrations look like low-grade photo copies of questionable over-head projector sheets. His later stuff might have actually been updated to where it looks less amateurish than the crap I paid money for, but I rather doubt it.
[/quote] to mr.Memilanuk: the illustrations are in line with the plain effort of a single individual to produce by himself ,in a low-cost way, a simple and easy-consulting pocket book FOR A BEGINNER_ I understand how,evidently not being a beginner,you don't like that,even if I wonder how,not being a beginner, you can have buyed it_ best regards
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
If we could figure the wind out most of us would never miss a target. For three years now we've been studying the wind at our local 1000 yard range (Rayners) and think we're finally getting a bit of it figured out.
Some ranges have steady one direction winds which should be a lot easier to decipher using a wind meter or various flags placed along the course. Our particular range at some distances we shoot across 3 or 4 valleys, numerous tree lines, a stream and different switchback areas where the wind swirls.
Trees may be going one direction up close, another direction farther out with a different wind speed, then switch again and finally the flag near the target may be one direction but you'll hold off exactly opposite what you're thinking and miss by a couple minutes.
We've been studying and paying more attention to mirage and so far that has been our best indicator for more first round hits. Lots of range time and reading all you can and also paying attention to what the guys that are the top scorers are talking about when making a wind call.
Good luck
Topstrap
If we could figure the wind out most of us would never miss a target. For three years now we've been studying the wind at our local 1000 yard range (Rayners) and think we're finally getting a bit of it figured out.
Some ranges have steady one direction winds which should be a lot easier to decipher using a wind meter or various flags placed along the course. Our particular range at some distances we shoot across 3 or 4 valleys, numerous tree lines, a stream and different switchback areas where the wind swirls.
Trees may be going one direction up close, another direction farther out with a different wind speed, then switch again and finally the flag near the target may be one direction but you'll hold off exactly opposite what you're thinking and miss by a couple minutes.
We've been studying and paying more attention to mirage and so far that has been our best indicator for more first round hits. Lots of range time and reading all you can and also paying attention to what the guys that are the top scorers are talking about when making a wind call.
Good luck
Topstrap
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we could figure the wind out most of us would never miss a target. For three years now we've been studying the wind at our local 1000 yard range (Rayners) and think we're finally getting a bit of it figured out.
Some ranges have steady one direction winds which should be a lot easier to decipher using a wind meter or various flags placed along the course. Our particular range at some distances we shoot across 3 or 4 valleys, numerous tree lines, a stream and different switchback areas where the wind swirls.
Trees may be going one direction up close, another direction farther out with a different wind speed, then switch again and finally the flag near the target may be one direction but you'll hold off exactly opposite what you're thinking and miss by a couple minutes.
We've been studying and paying more attention to mirage and so far that has been our best indicator for more first round hits. Lots of range time and reading all you can and also paying attention to what the guys that are the top scorers are talking about when making a wind call.
Good luck
Topstrap</div></div>
Smart thinking and why there is a home court advantage.
Some folks over think the wind, and some folks learning about it expect there is more to it than what ever they've read about it. A long range competitor, like me, has it easy, shoot sighters, appraise wind, and hold for prevailing condition using the spotting scope to understand the prevailing condition. For EIC competition, where there are no sighters, it's important to get the wind right, right from the start, but with just a little practice it really is not difficult. Books on the matter, which are more than a few pages, are mostly accounts of problem solving. Any shooter who uses his brain will have his own book with plenty of accounts of problem solving by just getting out and learning what wind looks and feels like to be able to appraise its velocity and direction. Then, applying the velocity and direction to a formula to get a wind counter, a shooter can tackle a target at most any distance/condition the bullet can reach nose-on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we could figure the wind out most of us would never miss a target. For three years now we've been studying the wind at our local 1000 yard range (Rayners) and think we're finally getting a bit of it figured out.
Some ranges have steady one direction winds which should be a lot easier to decipher using a wind meter or various flags placed along the course. Our particular range at some distances we shoot across 3 or 4 valleys, numerous tree lines, a stream and different switchback areas where the wind swirls.
Trees may be going one direction up close, another direction farther out with a different wind speed, then switch again and finally the flag near the target may be one direction but you'll hold off exactly opposite what you're thinking and miss by a couple minutes.
We've been studying and paying more attention to mirage and so far that has been our best indicator for more first round hits. Lots of range time and reading all you can and also paying attention to what the guys that are the top scorers are talking about when making a wind call.
Good luck
Topstrap</div></div>
Smart thinking and why there is a home court advantage.
Some folks over think the wind, and some folks learning about it expect there is more to it than what ever they've read about it. A long range competitor, like me, has it easy, shoot sighters, appraise wind, and hold for prevailing condition using the spotting scope to understand the prevailing condition. For EIC competition, where there are no sighters, it's important to get the wind right, right from the start, but with just a little practice it really is not difficult. Books on the matter, which are more than a few pages, are mostly accounts of problem solving. Any shooter who uses his brain will have his own book with plenty of accounts of problem solving by just getting out and learning what wind looks and feels like to be able to appraise its velocity and direction. Then, applying the velocity and direction to a formula to get a wind counter, a shooter can tackle a target at most any distance/condition the bullet can reach nose-on.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
i don't have as much experience as some, but for me the direction seems to be a lot harder to call (and more important) than the speed.
as far as shooting in conditions where the wind is doing one thing close in, another half way to the target, and yet another at the target, which one is more important?
or does it have to be figured like a double breaking putt?
i don't have as much experience as some, but for me the direction seems to be a lot harder to call (and more important) than the speed.
as far as shooting in conditions where the wind is doing one thing close in, another half way to the target, and yet another at the target, which one is more important?
or does it have to be figured like a double breaking putt?
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Ssve the money for the books and DVD and buy ammo, People have taught me some of what I have learned both in the flesh and on the screen, but most of MY learning has been from misses that I have seen through my scope. And you soak those in more. Good luck
Ssve the money for the books and DVD and buy ammo, People have taught me some of what I have learned both in the flesh and on the screen, but most of MY learning has been from misses that I have seen through my scope. And you soak those in more. Good luck
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shooter needs to know the wind velocity in mph and its direction. Observation can help the shooter see the effects of wind to determine both direction and velocity. For example a wind moving loose paper and raising dust would likely be an 8 to 12 mph wind, which could be averaged to 10 mph. The wind direction, relative to the shooter always shooting to 12 o'clock on the wind clock, will provide the wind with a value for the purpose of understanding the amount of sight adjustment necessary to counter for such wind. A wind from 6 to 12 or 12 to 6 o'clock has no value. A wind from 3 to 9 or 9 to 3 has full value. Other directions on the wind clock would be considered half value winds. Once we have velocity and direction we can put the wind value into our wind formula to determine the counter for wind.
A formula which yields an answer in MOA: distance in yards divided by 100 times wind value in mph divided by constant of 10 equals MOA of drift. The use of a constant of 10 is not exact; however, for .223 and .308 it works well at mid and long range.
With just a little practice at the concept as I presented it, the mystery of "wind reading" will be replaced with an actual understanding for what to do about the wind. </div></div>
How does this change if you use Meters?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A shooter needs to know the wind velocity in mph and its direction. Observation can help the shooter see the effects of wind to determine both direction and velocity. For example a wind moving loose paper and raising dust would likely be an 8 to 12 mph wind, which could be averaged to 10 mph. The wind direction, relative to the shooter always shooting to 12 o'clock on the wind clock, will provide the wind with a value for the purpose of understanding the amount of sight adjustment necessary to counter for such wind. A wind from 6 to 12 or 12 to 6 o'clock has no value. A wind from 3 to 9 or 9 to 3 has full value. Other directions on the wind clock would be considered half value winds. Once we have velocity and direction we can put the wind value into our wind formula to determine the counter for wind.
A formula which yields an answer in MOA: distance in yards divided by 100 times wind value in mph divided by constant of 10 equals MOA of drift. The use of a constant of 10 is not exact; however, for .223 and .308 it works well at mid and long range.
With just a little practice at the concept as I presented it, the mystery of "wind reading" will be replaced with an actual understanding for what to do about the wind. </div></div>
How does this change if you use Meters?
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
It does not change.
It does not change.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we could figure the wind out most of us would never miss a target. For three years now we've been studying the wind at our local 1000 yard range (Rayners) and think we're finally getting a bit of it figured out.
Some ranges have steady one direction winds which should be a lot easier to decipher using a wind meter or various flags placed along the course. Our particular range at some distances we shoot across 3 or 4 valleys, numerous tree lines, a stream and different switchback areas where the wind swirls.
Trees may be going one direction up close, another direction farther out with a different wind speed, then switch again and finally the flag near the target may be one direction but you'll hold off exactly opposite what you're thinking and miss by a couple minutes.
We've been studying and paying more attention to mirage and so far that has been our best indicator for more first round hits. Lots of range time and reading all you can and also paying attention to what the guys that are the top scorers are talking about when making a wind call.
Good luck
Topstrap </div></div>
I am fortunate where I live. I can shoot to any distance I want by myself without any distractions.
I don't have any indicators for the wind except Sage Brush. The wind can blow 30 mph one direction and two minutes later 30 mph 180 degrees from where it was originally blowing.
So I use the mirage as my indicator. Two weeks ago I was at a shoot and we had a no value to a quarter value wind and I made a bad wind call for third place. The wind was light and variable so the mirage was easy to see. It came up to about 10 mph and the mirage layed down and my mind said that I need to hold more right windage because of the mirage. I hit exactly where I was aiming at, which was a miss.
The problem I created was I was only seeing one thing and not reading what my body was feeling from the wind. I was feeling a no value wind but when the mirage layed down my mind told me something different.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Topstrap</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If we could figure the wind out most of us would never miss a target. For three years now we've been studying the wind at our local 1000 yard range (Rayners) and think we're finally getting a bit of it figured out.
Some ranges have steady one direction winds which should be a lot easier to decipher using a wind meter or various flags placed along the course. Our particular range at some distances we shoot across 3 or 4 valleys, numerous tree lines, a stream and different switchback areas where the wind swirls.
Trees may be going one direction up close, another direction farther out with a different wind speed, then switch again and finally the flag near the target may be one direction but you'll hold off exactly opposite what you're thinking and miss by a couple minutes.
We've been studying and paying more attention to mirage and so far that has been our best indicator for more first round hits. Lots of range time and reading all you can and also paying attention to what the guys that are the top scorers are talking about when making a wind call.
Good luck
Topstrap </div></div>
I am fortunate where I live. I can shoot to any distance I want by myself without any distractions.
I don't have any indicators for the wind except Sage Brush. The wind can blow 30 mph one direction and two minutes later 30 mph 180 degrees from where it was originally blowing.
So I use the mirage as my indicator. Two weeks ago I was at a shoot and we had a no value to a quarter value wind and I made a bad wind call for third place. The wind was light and variable so the mirage was easy to see. It came up to about 10 mph and the mirage layed down and my mind said that I need to hold more right windage because of the mirage. I hit exactly where I was aiming at, which was a miss.
The problem I created was I was only seeing one thing and not reading what my body was feeling from the wind. I was feeling a no value wind but when the mirage layed down my mind told me something different.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
I think the best way to learn it is to do it. You can gain some insight from books and other shooters with more experience, but applying it is really the only way to know it. It takes time. Shooting F-Class is a good way to learn. You will get valuable feedback after each shot as the guy in the pits marks your shot. If you pay attention, you can learn a lot quickly. You will very rarely shoot in a condition where a missed wind call will take you all the way off the target.
Having a good zero at a known distance(doesn't necessarily have to be at the distance you will be shooting) for the first time you shoot a match is important - just tell the match director you need a little help getting on target and they will work with you to get it figured out. Don't be embarrassed to do this, folks do it all the time and you have to start somewhere. Not everyone shooting matches is a seasoned veteran, and you might be surprised how well you can do as a new shooter.
Pay attention to everything - flags, mirage, trees, the noise the wind makes, etc. You will learn what is important as you get experience.
Good luck,
Erik
I think the best way to learn it is to do it. You can gain some insight from books and other shooters with more experience, but applying it is really the only way to know it. It takes time. Shooting F-Class is a good way to learn. You will get valuable feedback after each shot as the guy in the pits marks your shot. If you pay attention, you can learn a lot quickly. You will very rarely shoot in a condition where a missed wind call will take you all the way off the target.
Having a good zero at a known distance(doesn't necessarily have to be at the distance you will be shooting) for the first time you shoot a match is important - just tell the match director you need a little help getting on target and they will work with you to get it figured out. Don't be embarrassed to do this, folks do it all the time and you have to start somewhere. Not everyone shooting matches is a seasoned veteran, and you might be surprised how well you can do as a new shooter.
Pay attention to everything - flags, mirage, trees, the noise the wind makes, etc. You will learn what is important as you get experience.
Good luck,
Erik
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
G
Guest
Guest
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
I knew this was a mistake...
I knew this was a mistake...
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Your profile is blank. Can you list your shooting credentials which support your authoritative comments on this matter? Some highly regarded long range competitive shooters read the wind at mid range or at even further distances to target rather than take or consider wind at the muzzle. The only thing for sure in today's wind discussion is that the effect of wind is determined by the wind's velocity, direction, and the time the bullet is exposed to the wind. BTW, when a spotting scope is used to read mirage the velocity does not need to be appraised for value as the mph value is what is seen. It is only when the spotting scope is not used that the wind clock must be used to give wind velocity a value as it relates to direction.
Your profile is blank. Can you list your shooting credentials which support your authoritative comments on this matter? Some highly regarded long range competitive shooters read the wind at mid range or at even further distances to target rather than take or consider wind at the muzzle. The only thing for sure in today's wind discussion is that the effect of wind is determined by the wind's velocity, direction, and the time the bullet is exposed to the wind. BTW, when a spotting scope is used to read mirage the velocity does not need to be appraised for value as the mph value is what is seen. It is only when the spotting scope is not used that the wind clock must be used to give wind velocity a value as it relates to direction.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnSimpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I knew this was a mistake...
Edited by JohnSimpson (Today at 06:03 PM)
Edit Reason: It's not worth the hassle.
</div></div>
Hi John.
Please don't delete your posts like that, I would like to see what your opinion is I might not agree with it but I would like to see it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JohnSimpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I knew this was a mistake...
Edited by JohnSimpson (Today at 06:03 PM)
Edit Reason: It's not worth the hassle.
</div></div>
Hi John.
Please don't delete your posts like that, I would like to see what your opinion is I might not agree with it but I would like to see it.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
John you should have just ignored Sterling, he likes to read things like "high master" after your name.... otherwise you get questioned, especially if you don't follow AMU doctrine like he does.
For Sterling it was pretty simple to know, he only has 7 posts and there are clues as to who he is ...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. John Simpson is no doubt a subject matter expert in the “science” of long range marksmanship, as well as fieldcraft (more on this in a moment). He is recognized as an SME in sniping by the Army (JFK SpecWarfare Center/School, Special Operations Target Interdiction) and obviously the leaders of the American Sniper Association (which is a LE/MIL sniper association, like the NTOA is for SWAT and CNT). Simpson seems to be a no non-sense shooter and throws up a BS flag if a sniper can’t “prove it” with the math, a bullet and his weapon. Simpson’s attention to detail in the “mathmatics” of long range shooting is mind blowing. He believes sniping is a science and not an art form (as some like to call it), which after getting into the book, translated to be the mathmatics of ballistics and an understanding of the atmospheric conditions that can and will affect a bullet’s flights (internal, external, and terminal respectively). He believes in breaking down data such as a bullet’s flight time to the nearest .684084858 of a second (he doesn’t seem to believe in “rounding off”), as well as atmospheric conditions such as how many MPH the wind would have to blow to shift a POI outside the cranial cavity to the 1/8 of an inch.</div></div>
John you should have just ignored Sterling, he likes to read things like "high master" after your name.... otherwise you get questioned, especially if you don't follow AMU doctrine like he does.
For Sterling it was pretty simple to know, he only has 7 posts and there are clues as to who he is ...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. John Simpson is no doubt a subject matter expert in the “science” of long range marksmanship, as well as fieldcraft (more on this in a moment). He is recognized as an SME in sniping by the Army (JFK SpecWarfare Center/School, Special Operations Target Interdiction) and obviously the leaders of the American Sniper Association (which is a LE/MIL sniper association, like the NTOA is for SWAT and CNT). Simpson seems to be a no non-sense shooter and throws up a BS flag if a sniper can’t “prove it” with the math, a bullet and his weapon. Simpson’s attention to detail in the “mathmatics” of long range shooting is mind blowing. He believes sniping is a science and not an art form (as some like to call it), which after getting into the book, translated to be the mathmatics of ballistics and an understanding of the atmospheric conditions that can and will affect a bullet’s flights (internal, external, and terminal respectively). He believes in breaking down data such as a bullet’s flight time to the nearest .684084858 of a second (he doesn’t seem to believe in “rounding off”), as well as atmospheric conditions such as how many MPH the wind would have to blow to shift a POI outside the cranial cavity to the 1/8 of an inch.</div></div>
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
As well as:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About John C. Simpson: John C. Simpson taught at his first military sniper school in 1985 while his first law enforcement class was in 1986. He spent 5 years teaching sniping to Special Forces at the Special Warfare Center at Ft. Bragg, NC, and 3 years in a High Risk unit in Germany as a team sniper and finally the Company Master Sniper, with 2 years as Chief Instructor at the 10th Special Forces Group Sniper Committee at Fort Devens, MA before retiring in 1994 as a Sergeant First Class. While at Ft. Devens he trained police snipers in New York & Ohio as part of Project Northstar. John is currently a Staff Instructor for Snipercraft and the Director of Precision Rifle Programs for the James River Training System. He has been an Adjunct Instructor for sniping at the Smith & Wesson and SigArms Academies. He has contributed chapters to The Wind Book for Competitive Shooters and the ASA’s Police Sniper Operations and Training Manual and written many articles on sniping and precision rifle instruction for publications such as Police and Security News, Journal of Counterterrorism, Tactical Shooter and others. He currently writes for the Snipercraft newsletter as well as continuing to train police and military snipers.
</div></div>
As well as:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About John C. Simpson: John C. Simpson taught at his first military sniper school in 1985 while his first law enforcement class was in 1986. He spent 5 years teaching sniping to Special Forces at the Special Warfare Center at Ft. Bragg, NC, and 3 years in a High Risk unit in Germany as a team sniper and finally the Company Master Sniper, with 2 years as Chief Instructor at the 10th Special Forces Group Sniper Committee at Fort Devens, MA before retiring in 1994 as a Sergeant First Class. While at Ft. Devens he trained police snipers in New York & Ohio as part of Project Northstar. John is currently a Staff Instructor for Snipercraft and the Director of Precision Rifle Programs for the James River Training System. He has been an Adjunct Instructor for sniping at the Smith & Wesson and SigArms Academies. He has contributed chapters to The Wind Book for Competitive Shooters and the ASA’s Police Sniper Operations and Training Manual and written many articles on sniping and precision rifle instruction for publications such as Police and Security News, Journal of Counterterrorism, Tactical Shooter and others. He currently writes for the Snipercraft newsletter as well as continuing to train police and military snipers.
</div></div>
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
Sherri Gallager, a champion USAMU long range shooter, advocates reading mid range wind or further distance winds. I trust her opinion is an informed one. In fact, for HP shooters as a whole, seeking good scores on mid range or LR targets, spotting scopes will be set for mid range or counter clockwise a 1/4 turn from initial focus on the target, while, wind at the shooter's position is not likely considered at all. So, while one can say the wind has the most effect at the muzzle, some it appears question the usefulness of the information and instead incorporate a wind strategy which uses the mid range wind for their formula. For sure, the science is not settled on this matter; and, any authority on this topic would be smart to acknowledge a lot of really talented shooters do not read the wind at the muzzle if it is possible to read it at mid range.
Sherri Gallager, a champion USAMU long range shooter, advocates reading mid range wind or further distance winds. I trust her opinion is an informed one. In fact, for HP shooters as a whole, seeking good scores on mid range or LR targets, spotting scopes will be set for mid range or counter clockwise a 1/4 turn from initial focus on the target, while, wind at the shooter's position is not likely considered at all. So, while one can say the wind has the most effect at the muzzle, some it appears question the usefulness of the information and instead incorporate a wind strategy which uses the mid range wind for their formula. For sure, the science is not settled on this matter; and, any authority on this topic would be smart to acknowledge a lot of really talented shooters do not read the wind at the muzzle if it is possible to read it at mid range.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
I subscribe to the idea that the wind downrange is worth more than what you got at the firing point. So I have my spotting scope focused about 100 yards or less from the target. Especially when shooting 1000 yards for Palma, that little 155 is draggin ass as it approached the target and gets pushed a lot more there. Ever notice when watching trace just how much it tracks off the straight line at the end of the arc?
That being said, some days, mirage, flags and whatever else you are using will lie to you. This weekend at butner was a prime example!
John
I subscribe to the idea that the wind downrange is worth more than what you got at the firing point. So I have my spotting scope focused about 100 yards or less from the target. Especially when shooting 1000 yards for Palma, that little 155 is draggin ass as it approached the target and gets pushed a lot more there. Ever notice when watching trace just how much it tracks off the straight line at the end of the arc?
That being said, some days, mirage, flags and whatever else you are using will lie to you. This weekend at butner was a prime example!
John
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sherri Gallager, a champion USAMU long range shooter, has stated that she reads the mid range wind or further distance winds. I trust her opinion is an informed one. In fact, for HP shooters as a whole seeking good scores on mid range or LR targets, spotting scopes will be set for mid range or counter clockwise a 1/4 turn from initial focus on the target, while, wind at the shooter's position is not likely considered at all. Perhaps, one can say the wind has the most effect at the muzzle, but, the usefulness of the information compared to an alternative mid range wind reading is certainly questionable. That's to say, the science is not settled on this matter. Any authority on this topic would be smart to acknowledge a lot of really talented shooters do not read the wind at the muzzle. </div></div>
While this is often the case, and is the way I normally shoot, it is not always true. I have shot quite a few times where the nearer indicators were more accurately reflecting how the bullet was being affected than the mirage at mid range. When this happens, you have be ready to work with the info that is accurate, whether it's the info you expected to be accurate or not. There have been plenty of times that I have dialed the mirage out completely and just used other wind indicators because the mirage is lying.
There is a lot of "feel" involved with reading the wind well, and I agree with Greg Langelius that it is both art and science. The "science" part gets more difficult to pin down the further you get from your target and the "art" of an experienced shooter fills in the gaps. Good advice and coaching will help get you moving in the right direction, but you will still have to do it in order to learn it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sherri Gallager, a champion USAMU long range shooter, has stated that she reads the mid range wind or further distance winds. I trust her opinion is an informed one. In fact, for HP shooters as a whole seeking good scores on mid range or LR targets, spotting scopes will be set for mid range or counter clockwise a 1/4 turn from initial focus on the target, while, wind at the shooter's position is not likely considered at all. Perhaps, one can say the wind has the most effect at the muzzle, but, the usefulness of the information compared to an alternative mid range wind reading is certainly questionable. That's to say, the science is not settled on this matter. Any authority on this topic would be smart to acknowledge a lot of really talented shooters do not read the wind at the muzzle. </div></div>
While this is often the case, and is the way I normally shoot, it is not always true. I have shot quite a few times where the nearer indicators were more accurately reflecting how the bullet was being affected than the mirage at mid range. When this happens, you have be ready to work with the info that is accurate, whether it's the info you expected to be accurate or not. There have been plenty of times that I have dialed the mirage out completely and just used other wind indicators because the mirage is lying.
There is a lot of "feel" involved with reading the wind well, and I agree with Greg Langelius that it is both art and science. The "science" part gets more difficult to pin down the further you get from your target and the "art" of an experienced shooter fills in the gaps. Good advice and coaching will help get you moving in the right direction, but you will still have to do it in order to learn it.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sherri Gallager, a champion USAMU long range shooter, has stated that she reads the mid range wind or further distance winds. I trust her opinion is an informed one. In fact, for HP shooters as a whole seeking good scores on mid range or LR targets, spotting scopes will be set for mid range or counter clockwise a 1/4 turn from initial focus on the target, while, wind at the shooter's position is not likely considered at all. Perhaps, one can say the wind has the most effect at the muzzle, but, the usefulness of the information compared to an alternative mid range wind reading is certainly questionable. That's to say, the science is not settled on this matter. Any authority on this topic would be smart to acknowledge a lot of really talented shooters do not read the wind at the muzzle. </div></div>
While this is often the case, and is the way I normally shoot, it is not always true. I have shot quite a few times where the nearer indicators were more accurately reflecting how the bullet was being affected than the mirage at mid range. When this happens, you have be ready to work with the info that is accurate, whether it's the info you expected to be accurate or not. There have been plenty of times that I have dialed the mirage out completely and just used other wind indicators because the mirage is lying.
There is a lot of "feel" involved with reading the wind well, and I agree with Greg Langelius that it is both art and science. The "science" part gets more difficult to pin down the further you get from your target and the "art" of an experienced shooter fills in the gaps. Good advice and coaching will help get you moving in the right direction, but you will still have to do it in order to learn it. </div></div>
The only thing I've ever disagreed with Greg about is his referral to wind reading as an art. That may have been earlier on this thread; but, at any rate, I understand your point and Greg's. There is no substitute for good coaching. Kraig had a few good points about that as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Erud</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sherri Gallager, a champion USAMU long range shooter, has stated that she reads the mid range wind or further distance winds. I trust her opinion is an informed one. In fact, for HP shooters as a whole seeking good scores on mid range or LR targets, spotting scopes will be set for mid range or counter clockwise a 1/4 turn from initial focus on the target, while, wind at the shooter's position is not likely considered at all. Perhaps, one can say the wind has the most effect at the muzzle, but, the usefulness of the information compared to an alternative mid range wind reading is certainly questionable. That's to say, the science is not settled on this matter. Any authority on this topic would be smart to acknowledge a lot of really talented shooters do not read the wind at the muzzle. </div></div>
While this is often the case, and is the way I normally shoot, it is not always true. I have shot quite a few times where the nearer indicators were more accurately reflecting how the bullet was being affected than the mirage at mid range. When this happens, you have be ready to work with the info that is accurate, whether it's the info you expected to be accurate or not. There have been plenty of times that I have dialed the mirage out completely and just used other wind indicators because the mirage is lying.
There is a lot of "feel" involved with reading the wind well, and I agree with Greg Langelius that it is both art and science. The "science" part gets more difficult to pin down the further you get from your target and the "art" of an experienced shooter fills in the gaps. Good advice and coaching will help get you moving in the right direction, but you will still have to do it in order to learn it. </div></div>
The only thing I've ever disagreed with Greg about is his referral to wind reading as an art. That may have been earlier on this thread; but, at any rate, I understand your point and Greg's. There is no substitute for good coaching. Kraig had a few good points about that as well.
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John you should have just ignored Sterling, he likes to read things like "high master" after your name.... otherwise you get questioned, especially if you don't follow AMU doctrine like he does.
For Sterling it was pretty simple to know, he only has 7 posts and there are clues as to who he is ...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. John Simpson is no doubt a subject matter expert in the “science” of long range marksmanship, as well as fieldcraft (more on this in a moment). He is recognized as an SME in sniping by the Army (JFK SpecWarfare Center/School, Special Operations Target Interdiction) and obviously the leaders of the American Sniper Association (which is a LE/MIL sniper association, like the NTOA is for SWAT and CNT). Simpson seems to be a no non-sense shooter and throws up a BS flag if a sniper can’t “prove it” with the math, a bullet and his weapon. Simpson’s attention to detail in the “mathmatics” of long range shooting is mind blowing. He believes sniping is a science and not an art form (as some like to call it), which after getting into the book, translated to be the mathmatics of ballistics and an understanding of the atmospheric conditions that can and will affect a bullet’s flights (internal, external, and terminal respectively). He believes in breaking down data such as a bullet’s flight time to the nearest .684084858 of a second (he doesn’t seem to believe in “rounding off”), as well as atmospheric conditions such as how many MPH the wind would have to blow to shift a POI outside the cranial cavity to the 1/8 of an inch.</div></div>
</div></div>
Yeah but is he a high master
if not then anything he posts must be complete BS
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">John you should have just ignored Sterling, he likes to read things like "high master" after your name.... otherwise you get questioned, especially if you don't follow AMU doctrine like he does.
For Sterling it was pretty simple to know, he only has 7 posts and there are clues as to who he is ...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. John Simpson is no doubt a subject matter expert in the “science” of long range marksmanship, as well as fieldcraft (more on this in a moment). He is recognized as an SME in sniping by the Army (JFK SpecWarfare Center/School, Special Operations Target Interdiction) and obviously the leaders of the American Sniper Association (which is a LE/MIL sniper association, like the NTOA is for SWAT and CNT). Simpson seems to be a no non-sense shooter and throws up a BS flag if a sniper can’t “prove it” with the math, a bullet and his weapon. Simpson’s attention to detail in the “mathmatics” of long range shooting is mind blowing. He believes sniping is a science and not an art form (as some like to call it), which after getting into the book, translated to be the mathmatics of ballistics and an understanding of the atmospheric conditions that can and will affect a bullet’s flights (internal, external, and terminal respectively). He believes in breaking down data such as a bullet’s flight time to the nearest .684084858 of a second (he doesn’t seem to believe in “rounding off”), as well as atmospheric conditions such as how many MPH the wind would have to blow to shift a POI outside the cranial cavity to the 1/8 of an inch.</div></div>
</div></div>
Yeah but is he a high master
if not then anything he posts must be complete BS
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
I define a science as something which can be completely described mathematically, and an art as something which can't, and requires at least some intuition. For me, it's an art. Others may have reduced it to a science; more power to them.
I've met Sherri Gallagher, done some target service with her, and once even had the pleasure of shooting a few famfire shots with her Palma rifle (SOA 2002).
Frank was with us that week, and may have also shared our meeting with Sherri. I am indebted to both.
I believe that there is no distance at which wind is insignificant, and that while wind at the target has little or no time to achieve an effect, I can't fault it for tryin'. I believe that the effects of winds at the shooter have more time over which the bullet's inital deflection can achieve drift, and I also believe that at distance, where the bullet moves slower, the wind's has more time per increment of trajectory within which to affect the bullet's trajectory. This adds complexity to any computation, and IMHO, renders any simple platitutes about what's more important somewhat moot.
In my mind's eye, the bullet's path resembles that of a billiard ball that is rolling slightly uphill on a pool table that is also being constantly tilted left and right sometime after being cued.
Good luck predicting that POI using math alone.
Greg
I define a science as something which can be completely described mathematically, and an art as something which can't, and requires at least some intuition. For me, it's an art. Others may have reduced it to a science; more power to them.
I've met Sherri Gallagher, done some target service with her, and once even had the pleasure of shooting a few famfire shots with her Palma rifle (SOA 2002).
Frank was with us that week, and may have also shared our meeting with Sherri. I am indebted to both.
I believe that there is no distance at which wind is insignificant, and that while wind at the target has little or no time to achieve an effect, I can't fault it for tryin'. I believe that the effects of winds at the shooter have more time over which the bullet's inital deflection can achieve drift, and I also believe that at distance, where the bullet moves slower, the wind's has more time per increment of trajectory within which to affect the bullet's trajectory. This adds complexity to any computation, and IMHO, renders any simple platitutes about what's more important somewhat moot.
In my mind's eye, the bullet's path resembles that of a billiard ball that is rolling slightly uphill on a pool table that is also being constantly tilted left and right sometime after being cued.
Good luck predicting that POI using math alone.
Greg
Re: Reading the wind for beginners
It IS an art, with a science component. If it was pure science, you could put it in a book and folks could learn it or use a handheld computer to figure out all the numbers but the reality of it is that it takes time, patience and lots of OJT (on job training). Thats an art, imho.
It IS an art, with a science component. If it was pure science, you could put it in a book and folks could learn it or use a handheld computer to figure out all the numbers but the reality of it is that it takes time, patience and lots of OJT (on job training). Thats an art, imho.
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