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Rifle Scopes Fast on Steel

shoresroad

Private
Minuteman
Jul 27, 2012
8
0
66
I’m new here at Snipers Hide and long range shooting in general. I shoot IDPA but have never competed in rifle matches of any kind. I’m trying to find a scope for a rifle game I was invited to about six months ago that is a blast.

Here is what they are doing. The field of fire is about 150 yards wide and 800 yards deep. They’ve got twelve 18”W x 36”H steel plates set up at random distances between 100 and 800 yards. The course of fire would go something like this:

1st shot – 347 yards
2nd shot – 123 yards
3rd shot – 688 yards
4th shot – 424 yards
etc. through 12 plates.

You shoot against a shot timer and the goal is to hit each plate once as fast as possible. At the end of the day after 3 runs through the course the low time score wins. Then they use a laser range finder and tell us the actual distances to the targets at the end of the day. The following month the targets are set up at new random distances and positions. From my pistol perspective it is kind of like a Steel Challenge, except the target distances and locations are random each match (there is no set pattern).

I have an AR10 variant with a 20 inch barrel and a Millet DMS scope. The guys who put this game together are shooting high end scopes like ACOG TA55A. Last month a guy showed up with a Pride Fowler RR900 and did well. I’m trying to find a scope in the $600 to $800 price range to play this game. I’ve worn myself out trying to figure something out. I’ve looked at the following scopes but decided to post here to get some help on other ideas or recommendations to add to my list. I need to be able to range fast on an 18x36 target, hit it and move on.

So far the best I can find are:
Burris XTR 1.5-6x40
Weaver Tactical 1.5-5x24

The Pride Fowler RR800 is in my price range but doesn’t have ranging. They only thing they won’t allow is a laser range finder or scope like a Burris Eliminator. Anything else goes.

I can’t go $2000 on a scope like some of the guys are using, but I need something better than my Millet DMS.

Thanks for your help.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

save up another 200.00 and get on the new 1-6 SSHD. I am a huge SWFA product fan. They produce good, quality optics for not a lot of dough.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

Or the SS 10x fixed HD... I've shot similar courses of fire and there's no need to go higher than 10x power so the 1-6 SS HD might rock for you as well.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

Thanks for the fast feedback, guys.

I just took a look at the ACOG TA01NSN-308 and I like it. I didn't have it on my radar.

But took a look at the SWFA 1-6 SSHD also and here is my first newbie question. I figured I would need a BDC in the lower vertical plane. I know holdover is not perfect for BDC's, but I figured it would get me close and I could adjust once I learn my scope. I've read up on mil dot ranging and it makes total sense to me, but does finding the 500 yard (etc) holdover point on a mil dot reticle become instinctive and fast once you've learned your scope. I see myself trying to count down to 3.5 mils (whatever it turns out to be) for a holdover point and it doesn't seem very fast for this type of game when you're on the clock.

Just trying to get a handle on an ACOG's advantage over a FFP mil/mil scope or vice versa. If I was going to start trying to shoot tight groups at long range I would get a FFP mil/mil for sure, but not sure about it for this game.

Thanks.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

I've always been more precise when I dial my distance and use a center hold. I like to see if I can find something in the sight picture that will give me a center hold. Maybe it's a rock in the background or I'll dial for a hold under and use the target frame for a center hold. When I'm holding out in space with say a 2mil wind and a 4mil holdover and I'm trying to focus on the target, I miss a lot. It's just hard to judge my sight picture wobble without looking at the center of my reticle.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

The advantage to FFP is that you don't need to worry about what mag setting you are on to use your holdovers. Mil/Mil is nice because, if you can spot your misses, you can correct.

Do the guys finishing near the top dial range, or just holdover?

The targets are a pretty good size. With a 100 yard zero, you can do a 1/2 mil holdover at 200 and a 1 mil holdover at 300 and hit very close to POA, certainly a good solid hit with a center hold.

What would be handy for you to do is create a cheat sheet that tells you how many mils 18" subtends at various ranges in 50 yard increments, then holdover using your drop chart printed from JBM ballistics.
I think the best answer here is the SS 3-9 FFP with a switchview lever. If not, then I would lean towards something like the Weaver 1-5 FFP,the Vortex PST 1-4.
These are all in your price range and should perform very well. I would rather have a little extra mag available in the event that the target is partially obscured or hard to discern against the background.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do the guys finishing near the top dial range, or just holdover?</div></div>

The guys finishing at the top are holding over most of the time (some dial the farthest targets, the ACOG guys just shoot till they hit them). That's why I started heading down the BDC path in my thinking. It's a pretty fast game.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The targets are a pretty good size. With a 100 yard zero, you can do a 1/2 mil holdover at 200 and a 1 mil holdover at 300 and hit very close to POA, certainly a good solid hit with a center hold.

What would be handy for you to do is create a cheat sheet that tells you how many mils 18" subtends at various ranges in 50 yard increments, then holdover using your drop chart printed from JBM ballistics.</div></div>

Thanks, this is good info.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

Buy a scope you like(Afford) with a graduated ret. mil/moa, mil is my preference, and learn to use your holds. When you are given the distances, make a cheat sheet,I write on my left hand a LOT,and when the buzzer sounds blast away. no-one can dial and compete for time with a guy holding his elev.
For these type engagements, i really like the H 59 HDMR combo.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

Thanks for everyone's input from the Hide, and to the guys at SWFA and Liberty Optics who I talked to also. Here's my last question:

I've decided to go with a mil/mil FFP scope to teach myself milrad shooting and to play the game described in my OP (a guy at SWFA told me its called "Send It").

I've worn the Hide out reading scope reviews, and based on the reticle style I would like to start with, plus too many comments about a scope having a tight eyebox...etc, I've narrowed my choice down to 2 scopes in my price range:

SWFA SS 3-9x42 FFP
Vortex 4-16x50 Viper PST FFP

I would like the extra mag on the Vortex, but not at the sacrifice of glass quality if the SS 3-9x42 is better. My thinking is if the glass is of similar quality between the two, I'll spend the extra $ on the Vortex for more mag. If not similar, I'll stay happy with the SS 3-9x42 for now until I get some more experience under my belt in deciding on a better high dollar scope.

Looking for opinions on glass vs. glass from those who have owned or used both of the above scopes.

Thanks!
 
Re: Fast on Steel

I shoot a match that is somewhat similar to yours except with a par time and we take two shots per steel, however the steels are smaller. We shoot from 210Y to 1090Y. I use holdovers and holdoffs primarily and do well.

Personally I'd feel at a huge disadvantage with a lower powered scope like the 3-9 you are considering. I think you are making the best decision going FFP though.

What about the Weaver 3-15 tactical, they have pretty good glass, supposedly better than Vortex PST's???

I use a Horus HDMR 3.5-21 with H-59 reticle. The Horus reticles are designed for accurate holdovers within a click or same .1 mil.

Except for in your face distances I can't imagine needing less than 3.5. I use 21x a lot and 12-18x most often for field course or tactical matches.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoresroad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
SWFA SS 3-9x42 FFP
Vortex 4-16x50 Viper PST FFP
</div></div>
I've owned both of these scopes. In my particular two, the glass quality was very close regarding clarity and brightness. In the end I sold the SS and kept the PST for its better features. The PST doesn't just have SOME better features, it has a LOT of better features.

However, I have read many comments on the Hide that, over time, have directed me to believe the quality on the PST glass is hit or miss. In other words, you can get great ones or bad ones, or anything in between. I have no idea if mine is good, average, or bad (compared to other PSTs), but it's pretty great.

If you get to compare these two in real life, set the zoom level identical on the two scopes. This is important. If you set at max magnification levels, where one scope has a much higher magnification than the other, it will always look worse (assuming comparable quality scopes).
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the Weaver 3-15 tactical, they have pretty good glass, supposedly better than Vortex PST's???</div></div>

Thanks Steve,

The only reason the Weaver didn't make my list was because I think I will need more than 5 mils of holdover at 800 yards? I also don't like the plain mil-dot reticle on the Weaver. I think I'll prefer the numbers on the Vortex or the hash mark at 5 mil on the SS to help my eyes find the mil count faster for holdovers at longer ranges. If the Weaver had a reticle like the Vortex or SS I would buy it from what I have read.

 
Re: Fast on Steel

Thanks, Bedlam.

I'm hoping there are some other SH members who have seen both also. If the general consensus is they are pretty close then I'll go with the Vortex. I just don't want to give up better glass for more magnification. Maybe the variability in glass quality on the PST will come out with some further feedback on the two scopes.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 33shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That sounds perfect for a Bushnell HDMR with H59 </div></div>

An HDMR with an H59 or G2 seems to be the consensus from many. I can go the extra $ for an HDMR G2, but I've seen so many comments about the potential of getting an HDMR with bad glass that I'm gun shy. Since I'm new to high power scopes I probably won't even know if I've got bad glass or not until I figure it out later on when I get more opportunity to look through more high end scopes at distance.

Would a "bad glass" HDMR be at least as good as an average glass PST 4-16x50 or SS 3-9x42. I don't want to spend more and get less (the HDMR H59 and G2 reticles do look great for holdover shooting).

Thanks to everyone for helping me get my mind around all this. I'm trying to get this done and do the deal and start shooting so I promise I'll not keep this thread alive forever. Lot's of great scope reviews on Sniper's Hide, but I didn't find any specifically talking about scopes good for holdover competitions in the 100 to 800 yard range.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

Dont get a BDC scope, get a mil dot or moa reticle scope. Nightforce 2.5-10 in mil dot reticle will do fine.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

i can't comment on a lot of this, but if there's any sub $1000 scope out there with discernibly better glass than the vortex pst, i'd be surprised.

you will not be giving up any "glass quality".

i also agree about the BDC scope. IMO it's better to learn mil or moa, get a reticle graduated as you choose, and rock on.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

An MP8 reticule like in the IOR 2.5-10, super sniper 3-9, and to a lesser extent the bushnell G2 or the ACOG reticule that is timed for a 150gr would be what I'd want. ACOG probably fastest on large steel esp/if you've practiced indexing targets with the reticule to guesstimate range.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LoneWolfUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would put a Bushnell HDMR with G2 reticle on a .260 gas gun for this game. </div></div>
^ ^ ^ This ^ ^ ^

I was fortunate to get in on the group buy, and it's a great optic! It's FFP with an excellent Mil-graduated reticle. You will find them in FS section sometimes. Here's the link to the (now expired) HDMR G2 grop buy for some photos of scope and reticle.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2716145#Post2716145

Another option is the Elite with G2. A true "Mil-Dot" (as in big dots) may be a bit coarse for what you are doing. Whatever you do, keep your reticle and turrets the same (Mil-Mil, or MOA-MOA).

Kevin
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoresroad</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 33shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That sounds perfect for a Bushnell HDMR with H59 </div></div>

An HDMR with an H59 or G2 seems to be the consensus from many. I can go the extra $ for an HDMR G2, but I've seen so many comments about the potential of getting an HDMR with bad glass that I'm gun shy. Since I'm new to high power scopes I probably won't even know if I've got bad glass or not until I figure it out later on when I get more opportunity to look through more high end scopes at distance.

Would a "bad glass" HDMR be at least as good as an average glass PST 4-16x50 or SS 3-9x42. I don't want to spend more and get less (the HDMR H59 and G2 reticles do look great for holdover shooting).

Thanks to everyone for helping me get my mind around all this. I'm trying to get this done and do the deal and start shooting so I promise I'll not keep this thread alive forever. Lot's of great scope reviews on Sniper's Hide, but I didn't find any specifically talking about scopes good for holdover competitions in the 100 to 800 yard range. </div></div>

Because of this post right here, I definitely think you should get the HDMR. You need FFP, you need a great reticle. You'll be satisfied with the glass, even if you get a "bad" one, because you don't have a Premier, S&B or Benny that you've gotten used to...plus, superior glass isn't needed for your game. Seriously, the HDMR is going to do you well. It will also provide more versatility for any other rifle endeavors you get involved in with its extra magnification. These have gotten popular for a reason, and if/when you want something else, you'll be able to sell if for a reasonable price.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

I think the HDMR glass is ok for the price. It's no better or worse than the others in that price point I've looked through. The scope has all the features your looking for.
 
Re: Fast on Steel

Thanks for everyone's input on this thread...I learned something from every single comment.

I just purchased a Bushnell 3.5-21x50 G2DMR that I now feel confident will be a good fit for me as I explore long range shooting.

Appreciate everyone's help!
 
Re: Fast on Steel

shoresroad,

Good decision and you won't regret it. This will be a scope that will last you a lifetime. You can always upgrade, and put this on another rifle. You never have too many.

A good thread to get you started learning your reticle:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...184#Post3053184

. . . good photos showing breakdown of reticle.

Kevin
 
Re: Fast on Steel

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shoresroad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just purchased a Bushnell 3.5-21x50 G2DMR that I now feel confident will be a good fit for me as I explore long range shooting.</div></div>

Excellent choice.