Another stupid question.

[Lofty]

So I am working on some once fired cases in my Redding full length sizing die.

When I try to run the shell up into the die, the decapping pin is very hard to get into and out of the case mouth. I've used some Imperial sizing die wax on a Qtip in the inside the neck mouth and outside the case, but it's still REALLY sticky going in and out.

Is it supposed to be that hard?

 

[Mordamer]

Re: Another stupid question.

I have seen this with new brass but never with once fired brass. Have you tried taking the die apart and inspecting the expander and internal surfaces to make sure everything is ok?

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

Yes, I did......but what am I looking for?

Everything seems fine but the expander will not go into the case mouth by hand....not even close.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

Here's a pic of the expander.

And this is as far as the case can go on a fired brass by hand. It requires a lot more force than I would have thought to push the expander through the case mouth.

 

[easternncnative]

Re: Another stupid question.

I recommend that you measure the diameter of the expander with calipers just to make sure it's the correct diameter. It's not unheard of for the wrong size expander to end up on a sizing die.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: easternncnative</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I recommend that you measure the diameter of the expander with calipers just to make sure it's the correct diameter. It's not unheard of for the wrong size expander to end up on a sizing die. </div></div>

I get .242, it's a .243 die. The bullets seem to seat with proper tension.....I just don't know why it's so stiff.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Another stupid question.

one of the consequences of firing is the transmigration of brass from the case head zone to the neck/shoulder zone_this can cause two results:1)a thicker neck or 2)a doughnuts on the inside junction between shoulder and neck_both can give you the problem encountered,and the knurled head of your dec.pin/xpander for sure will utterly stiffen the resistence on his travel_

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

Ummmmm.....so that's normal?

 

[shoot4fun]

Re: Another stupid question.

Lofty,
I started using the Imperial Dry Neck Lube for lubing inside of necks. It is mixed in ceramic media (I think) and it has stopped all the chatter caused by sticky expander balls.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Another stupid question.

it can happen,but FORCING a knurled xpander/dec.pin is not the right way_1)please,try with a reversed rill bit, of the actual size of the inside neck,and see if,after traveli'smoothly inside the neck,it will encounter some obstacle at the shoulder junction level:if the answer is YES,you have a donut,and can remove it even with a proper size hand-held drill bit,or w.the proper reamer_2)if the answer above is NOT,you can have 1)a die that sizes too much the neck OR a xpander too much large,OR a thickened neck_my first choice will be keepin'the die,but trashin' away his redd.dec./xpander,decapping the brass w.a cheap Lee Univ.Decapper_expanding the necks w.a proper Sinclair Expandin Die_if the problem will continue again,can be advisable preparing the brass w.some neck turning,but at distance the "if"s can be more...P.S. : are you SURE your decap./resizer is properly adjusted in height,inside the die ?

 

[DubGunner]

Re: Another stupid question.

Another stupid question, what's the purpose of a knurled expander? Seems like that would create tons of friction problems.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DubGunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another stupid question, what's the purpose of a knurled expander? Seems like that would create tons of friction problems. </div></div>removing carbon deposits and/or other garbage from the inside of the neck,I suppose_go figure...

 

[joemusso]

Re: Another stupid question.

is there a bushing in the die you are using?
if so it might be to small for the expander.

i use a .333 bushing and the expender will not go in to the case. i do not use the expander when i FL resize.
just a thought.

another thought did you buy this brass new or use if used it might have been resized already.
thank you
joe

 

[Temp9]

Re: Another stupid question.

If you're having problems getting your expander to go into once-fired cases, I would be very concerned about your neck release upon firing. Your necks should be expanding larger than the bullet diameter upon firing. If it isn't, I believe you could get some strange, potentially dangerous pressure situations.

Do you have a tight neck chamber? If you do, you have to turn the necks. If not, I would get your chamber checked anyways. Your expander die seems to measure properly, meaning something about your brass is off. Since your brass conforms to the chamber, it seems the logical place to look is the chamber. By the way, you should be able to slip a bullet into your once fired cases without much or any tension.

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">is there a bushing in the die you are using?
if so it might be to small for the expander.

i use a .333 bushing and the expender will not go in to the case. <span style="color: #FF0000">i do not use the expander when i FL resize.</span>
just a thought.

another thought did you buy this brass new or use if used it might have been resized already.
thank you
joe </div></div>

Any chance the OP is FL sizing w/o the expander? That would give him the too small neck dia. thing.

OFG

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

No, I full length sized with the expander.

Non of my brass once fired would allow me to finger seat a bullet though.

How do you know the correct neck tension?

 

[Temp9]

Re: Another stupid question.

Neck tension is found by measuring the diameter of your neck, seating a bullet, then re-measuring the diameter of your neck. Take the difference, and that's your neck tension. Once fired cases shouldn't have any (ie. bullet drops in).

What barrel are you using?

 

[easternncnative]

Re: Another stupid question.

The knurled part of the expander assembly is much smaller than the expander ball itself and should not be contacting the inside of the case at all. The knurled part is there only so you can grip it while tightening the depriming pin.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No, I full length sized with the expander.

Non of my brass once fired would allow me to finger seat a bullet though.

How do you know the correct neck tension? </div></div> neck turning

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

So my necks measure .273 after sizing, .274 after seating a 115 DTAC.

Doesn't seem like too much tension. I just pulled a factory loaded .243 by Corbon in Lapua brass and the force to remove the bullet seems identical to my loads.

Could it be that the small neck diameter of the 6mm shell just doesn't allow for a lot of expansion?

I'm sure its not a chamber issue, the gun fires fine with absolutely no signs of pressure. Primers look fine, no sticky bolt and velocities are moderate.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Another stupid question.

All I can suggest are only others "probable"solutions:you can remove the knurled cylindrical head of your redd.xpander,and try substituting it with a Redding tapered sizing button,smooth finished,selled by Sinclair (under $15)_or buy a proper hand-held inside neck reamer (Wilson/Sinclair),to obtain the internal neck dia.of your choice_I say "probable" because,by e-mail only,my limited diagnostic capabilities can't do better than that_ I hope that something among all my rap can be,if not a real answer, a useful input to resolve the matter above_

 

[JByrd]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my necks measure .273 after sizing, .274 after seating a 115 DTAC.

Doesn't seem like too much tension. I just pulled a factory loaded .243 by Corbon in Lapua brass and the force to remove the bullet seems identical to my loads.

Could it be that the small neck diameter of the 6mm shell just doesn't allow for a lot of expansion?

I'm sure its not a chamber issue, the gun fires fine with absolutely no signs of pressure. Primers look fine, no sticky bolt and velocities are moderate. </div></div>

Neck tension is specific to that lot of brass and that particular bullet brand. Drop bushing size by .001 if your .274 after seating you need to be .272 before seating the bullet.

As far as the button on the decap stem, its gonna be a little more snug when you drop a bushing size. The fix is tighten the button on the stem real good place the stem button assembly only in a drill press and let it spin. Use fine grit sand paper to bring the size down till its real close to fitting your necks. Then do the final reduction /smoothing with steel wool. You will have a custom fit glass smooth button for the brass you like that matches the bullet you like that matches the rifle.

 

[JByrd]

Re: Another stupid question.

.001 neck tension is okay but for the nasty dusty tac match environment, i stick to .002 ,i learned the hard way at a match. Luckily a good friend had an otis to knock proj. Out. And it was on the last rd. In a string of fire

 

[steve123]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my necks measure .273 after sizing, .274 after seating a 115 DTAC.

Doesn't seem like too much tension. I just pulled a factory loaded .243 by Corbon in Lapua brass and the force to remove the bullet seems identical to my loads.

Could it be that the small neck diameter of the 6mm shell just doesn't allow for a lot of expansion?

I'm sure its not a chamber issue, the gun fires fine with absolutely no signs of pressure. Primers look fine, no sticky bolt and velocities are moderate. </div></div>

Looks like you only have .001 neck tension. That's not much. Normal is .002. With that little amount of neck tension there's a risk of the bullet being shoved into the case upon chambering. The distance the bullet could be shoved in can vary with each case from a little to a lot. Using dry neck lube or sizing wax will make this problem worse. Also if you are into the lands with the seating depth at all your going to eventually get a bullet stuck in the lands upon ejecting a loaded round.

Of course if your rifle is a single shot then it's a mute point except for seating into the lands.

How much does the neck size to when sized without the expander ? - You can get away with .003-.004 neck tension but personally I wouldn't want to have more than .004.

What does the neck measure on a fired case ?

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

So it sounds like the answer is to just use my Wilson neck sizer to decap and size the neck and use my full length when I need it without the decapping pin and neck expander?

 

[JByrd]

Re: Another stupid question.

I run the custom ball so i know necks are perfect. It takes any little dings out before they are sized,but to each his own

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

I didn't exactly understand what you were suggesting.

Take a properly sized case and polish my expander ball down until it just fits in the neck? But don't I want some spring off the expander?

 

[JByrd]

Re: Another stupid question.

No it can take some of the neck tension back out if it drags. Just a light contact ,no drag

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

Gotcha.....Im gonna try that.

 

[steve123]

Re: Another stupid question.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So my necks measure .273 after sizing, .274 after seating a 115 DTAC.

Doesn't seem like too much tension. I just pulled a factory loaded .243 by Corbon in Lapua brass and the force to remove the bullet seems identical to my loads.

Could it be that the small neck diameter of the 6mm shell just doesn't allow for a lot of expansion

I'm sure its not a chamber issue, the gun fires fine with absolutely no signs of pressure. Primers look fine, no sticky bolt and velocities are moderate. </div></div>

Looks like you only have .001 neck tension. That's not much. Normal is .002. With that little amount of neck tension there's a risk of the bullet being shoved into the case upon chambering. The distance the bullet could be shoved in can vary with each case from a little to a lot. Using dry neck lube or sizing wax will make this problem worse. Also if you are into the lands with the seating depth at all your going to eventually get a bullet stuck in the lands upon ejecting a loaded round.

Of course if your rifle is a single shot then it's a mute point except for seating into the lands.

How much does the neck size to when sized without the expander ? - You can get away with .003-.004 neck tension but personally I wouldn't want to have more than .004.

What does the neck measure on a fired case ?

</div></div>

I know you are planning on polishing down the expander, which is a good idea but can you answer my 2 questions.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Another stupid question.

Im sorry Steve......I cant answer that right now because I have no fired brass that I havent resized already.

I did 200 cases the other day and have to wait until I shoot some more.

Ive got a Wilson neck die with a .270 and a .271 bushing....I might run them through it to tighten the necks up a tad.

 

[JByrd]

Re: Another stupid question.

Without the expander is a good question b/c your current bushing may be giving you the .002 reduction and then the expander comes through on the way out and drags it back out to .001 nect tension. This is highly likely since the ball is so tight

 

[steve123]

Re: Another stupid question.

Yep the Wilson neck die will solve the neck tension problem, extra step is all.

You might be close to those measurements not using the expander. I don't like using expanders anymore because they stretch the neck when pulled out which means more work hardening on the necks and frequent trimming.

I'm running .0015 neck tension on my 6x47L. It works because the cases are so clean from running the brass through the ultrasonic and STM method.