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Range Report What is the ultimate subsonic round?

L

Lofty

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 14, 2008
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What is the best option for an accurate subsonic round that has good bullet selection for terminal performance as well?

What are realistic distances for subsonic rifle rounds like the .338 whisper or the 510 whisper?

I want to build a.quite.hog killer that I can score accurate and deadly hits out to.150 yards or so but still be quite.

Any suggestion?
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

.300 Blackout?? a 220 gr at 1000 FPS is pretty quiet and hits plenty hard but i don't hunt so I don't know if it hits hard enough for pigs.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bhtr9F1cjk

I'm a fan of the .510 whisper and 50 thumper type rounds. .510" bullets just under the speed of sound. Such a large array of .50bmg bullets and others, even some hollow points specifically designed to be fired sub-sonic.

If I ever do a suppressed sub-sonic build it will be a .50 cal.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

+1 on the .510 whisper. I am building an old-school hog killing machine using 500 grain hard cast lead coming out of a 45/70 government.

Jeffvn
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

I don't really think that distances and subsonics are all that compatible. Slow arcing trajectories and inconstant winds can make a mockery of questions like this one.

Also, subsonic aerodynamics are kinda different from the kind of shooting the rest of us do.

For instance, I sometimes suggest seating an open base boattail bullet backwards, and folks just sorta snicker. But actually, the resulting teardrop profile is very stable at low RPM's, nearly ideal for subsonic (aerodynamic) penetration, and the open base exposed lead projectile's front is very close to being a trashcan hollowpoint for terminal performance (you need every bit you can get at those velocities).

I think that in practical terms, it makes little sense to be shooting bigger than .30 cal, that minimal case capacities will still provide all the room one needs for the small propellant charges required, and will do it with higher efficiency.

My nominee is the lowly and ubiquitous 7.62x39, loaded with a biggie open base boattail, seated backward.

No persnickety wildcat brass or dies, fits a myriad existing firearms, and 30cal projos are far from rare.

If you're actually trying to shoot a sub beyond 100yd, you might just as well be using a .22LR.

Greg
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.

If you're actually trying to shoot a sub beyond 100yd, you might just as well be using a .22LR.

Greg </div></div>

I appreciate the feedback but I don't understand. So you're saying a 750 grain projectile at 200 yards traveling subsonic is no better than a .22?

These seem like they would be wicked

Lehigh Defense

 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

Overall, I think the 300 BLK is the best compromise. A 30 caliber bullet will kill a pig easily if placed right. I've only shot one pig with a subsonic round in a hunting situation. It was a 150ish pound pig at 75 yards. I put a 208 Amax through the lungs and it left a 30 caliber hole entry and exit wound. The pig only made it 100 yards or so. It's more like archery in that you need to be close and you will have to follow a blood trail unless you are making headshots.

A 50 would leave a bigger hole, but 30 caliber is much cheaper, more available, bigger selection, lots of load data, and subsonic specific bullet selection will only get better with the proliferation of the 300 BLK. You won't cringe when you shoot it.
-Dan
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

Of course a 750gr slug will pack more whack at 200yd.

I'd just rather be peckin' away with a 10/22 than stokin' a bolt action howitzer.

One, I can buy everything at Dick's; the other, I gotta get something pretty near a Voodoo Witch Doctor to provide me with a lot of my goodies.

Greg
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

My vote is for Jeffvn's idea. A 500 grain round nose lead slug at 1050 fps isn't far off the original black powder load and those were made to perforate the horse and the rider hanging on the off side. If you want more expansion fro that you can use softer lead with a gas check...or, do the split nose technique wherein you place a narrow piece of alumimum foil between the blocks just back of the nose. Opens like a champ. Will take the whole head off at 50 yards. Done it.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

I worked up a 405gr cast bullet at 1050 fps in my Marlin 45-70. Load is 12gr Unique.

It's not a suppressed rifle, but from the 18.5" barrel it's not terribly loud.

Copy2ofP9280013.jpg
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

I am not sure of the energy once it gets there but we were shooting 300blk subsonics suppressed at 300 yards 2-3 weeks ago and hlitting every shot on a man size target. this was only using an eotech and guessing on the hold over. but it made us start thinking what could be possible with this round if we just spent a little on a cheaper nikon bdc to help with hold overs
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">These seem like they would be wicked

Lehigh Defense

</div></div>

Yup. You're on the right track............
cool.gif


IMAG0292.jpg



 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

i would really like to see the damage those inflict. anyone have pictures?
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is the best option for an accurate subsonic round that has good bullet selection for terminal performance as well?

What are realistic distances for subsonic rifle rounds like the .338 whisper or the 510 whisper?

I want to build a.quite.hog killer that I can score accurate and deadly hits out to.150 yards or so but still be quite.

Any suggestion? </div></div>

Terminal performance is only achieved with the Lehigh bullets pictured above. It's a bolt action option.

Stretching out the range for longer hits without running out of scope adjustment and you're back to .300 whisper/fireball or blackout IMO. The 338 Spectre and .510's are cool but screw that projectile cost.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...My nominee is the lowly and ubiquitous 7.62x39, loaded with a biggie open base boattail, seated backward.

No persnickety wildcat brass or dies, fits a myriad existing firearms, and 30cal projos are far from rare...
Greg </div></div>

The 7.62x39 is often overlooked, but I think it is a very viable cartridge to fulfill a subsonic role.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

My current subsonic toys are a 44 cal bullet shoved into a chopped off 30-06 case throwing 460gr cast and a 500SW handi-rifle throwing 780gr cast both at subsonic speeds.

1000+fpE from the 44
1700+fpE from the 500

Off the shelf pistol bullets are easily available for both in 300-330gr version for the 44 and 500-700gr for the 50.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrick10_2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lofty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What is the best option for an accurate subsonic round that has good bullet selection for terminal performance as well?

What are realistic distances for subsonic rifle rounds like the .338 whisper or the 510 whisper?

I want to build a.quite.hog killer that I can score accurate and deadly hits out to.150 yards or so but still be quite.

Any suggestion? </div></div>

Terminal performance is only achieved with the Lehigh bullets pictured above. It's a bolt action option.

Stretching out the range for longer hits without running out of scope adjustment and you're back to .300 whisper/fireball or blackout IMO. The 338 Spectre and .510's are cool but screw that projectile cost.
</div></div>

Yeah, I think Im gonna have a DTA barrel spun up for a .338 whisper and use those Lehigh bullets.

Here piggy piggy.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

As any sub can only be driven so fast, how about bigger bullets?

We've been stuffing Lehigh pills in 458 Socom cases. Examples in my pic above. This project is still in the R&D stages but making good progress. A dedicated sub-only can will follow.

Off the shelf cases and a 1-8" twist barrel spins the almost 600grs. to 1,430 ft.lbs. of thump at the muzzle with 1,050fps. But, it's only good if you want/need a stick fully dedicated to subs and are in love with the spendy Lehigh brass bullets. I do and I am.

DSCF0331.jpg


Here are the numbers. And yea, at 250yds that aerodynamic hunk of brass will drop a wee bit over five (5) FEET with a hundred yard zero on the gun. You'll need a rangefinder and a scope with enough elevation!

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Input Data</span>
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.630 G1 Caliber: 0.458 in
Bullet Weight: 582.0 gr Bullet Length: 2.414 in
Muzzle Velocity: 1050.0 ft/s Distance to Chronograph: 10.0 ft
Sight Height: 1.50 in Sight Offset: 0.00 in
Zero Height: 0.00 in Zero Offset: 0.00 in
Windage: 0.000 MOA Elevation: 0.000 MOA
Barrel Twist: 10.0 in Twist Direction: Right
Temperature: 0.0 °F Pressure: 29.92 in Hg
Humidity: 0.0 % Altitude: 0.0 ft
Vital Zone Radius: 5.0 in

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Output Data</span>
Elevation: 16.959 MOA Windage: 0.000 MOA
Atmospheric Density: 0.08629 lb/ft³ Speed of Sound: 1051.0 ft/s
Maximum PBR: 139 yd Maximum PBR Zero: 117 yd
Sectional Density: 0.396 lb/in² Stability at Muzzle: 1.606

<span style="text-decoration: underline">Calculated Table</span>
Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(yd) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 1051.9 1.001 1429.6 0.000 0.0 ***
25 1.9 7.4 0.0 0.1 1038.1 0.988 1392.3 0.072 0.0 0.0
50 3.4 6.5 0.1 0.2 1024.9 0.975 1357.3 0.144 0.0 0.0
75 2.8 3.5 0.2 0.3 1012.5 0.963 1324.6 0.218 0.0 0.0
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.4 0.4 1000.7 0.952 1293.8 0.293 0.0 0.0
125 -4.9 -3.8 0.6 0.4 989.4 0.941 1264.9 0.368 0.0 0.0
150 -12.1 -7.7 0.8 0.5 978.7 0.931 1237.7 0.444 0.0 0.0
175 -21.5 -11.7 1.1 0.6 968.5 0.921 1212.0 0.521 0.0 0.0
200 -33.2 -15.8 1.4 0.7 958.7 0.912 1187.7 0.599 0.0 0.0
225 -47.3 -20.1 1.7 0.7 949.4 0.903 1164.6 0.678 0.0 0.0
250 -63.8 -24.4 2.1 0.8 940.4 0.895 1142.7 0.757 0.0 0.0
275 -82.7 -28.7 2.5 0.9 931.8 0.887 1121.8 0.837 0.0 0.0
300 -104.2 -33.2 3.0 1.0 923.5 0.879 1101.9 0.918 0.0 0.0
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

Thats what I am talking about!!!

Those Lehigh bullets arent too bad if you save them for taking game.

You can plink with other much cheaper rounds.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

From Jimmy here on the hide.
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Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

No big secret here, the heavier the projectile the more energy your going to have down range. We are limited to around 1050 fps not to crack. Having said that the 50 bmg, and numerous other .510 bore calibers, can be made to shoot a projectile at over 1000 grains subsonic with a ridiculously high BC. Rumor is some guys are doing something like this and getting very good performance to 600 meters. I can tell you 300 AAC blackout or Wisper is my favorite (Same exact performance that Greg mentioned with 7.62x39) because with just a simple mag change you can rock 125 grain projectiles and emulate 7.62x39 performance but with much better projectiles for the .308 bore than .311 bore. Then with a simple and quick barrel change, thanks to LMT, in about 30 seconds you can rock .556 from the same gun, same bolt and mags. Simple, easy and crazy quiet!!! Oh and that's a 6 lb gun with much improved capacity than a .510 bore. Just my .02
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

I've suggested this before, but for the most part, people who build subsonics are (un?)consciously trying to replicate pistol round performance in a rifle chambering. At the very least, there's going to be empty case capcity, and that's not efficient from a load density perspective.

Maybe this is a no-brainer, but why aren't these projects being built on pistol chamberings?

45 and 50 caliber straight-wall handgun chamberings do exist. For subsonics, they possess at least enough case capacity.

If a large diameter, massive slug is so much better; why are folks even considering something less than 45 caliber?

Greg
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've suggested this before, but for the most part, people who build subsonics are (un?)consciously trying to replicate pistol round performance in a rifle chambering. At the very least, there's going to be empty case capcity, and that's not efficient from a load density perspective.

Maybe this is a no-brainer, but why aren't these projects being built on pistol chamberings?

45 and 50 caliber straight-wall handgun chamberings do exist. For subsonics, they possess at least enough case capacity.

If a large diameter, massive slug is so much better; why are folks even considering something less than 45 caliber?

Greg </div></div>


See my post above:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My current subsonic toys are a 44 cal bullet shoved into a chopped off 30-06 case throwing 460gr cast and a <span style="font-weight: bold">500SW handi-rifle throwing 780gr cast both at subsonic speeds</span>.

1000+fpE from the 44
1700+fpE from the 500

Off the shelf pistol bullets are easily available for both in 300-330gr version for the 44 and 500-700gr for the 50. </div></div>




The only reason we considered the 30-06 chop-off project is that the round happens to fit into a standard AR15 lower and feed from mags that have a new follower and slightly modified lips and it cycles the action in a 16.5" barrel. Like the 450 Bushy and 458 SOCOM but we did it at home in 2001/2002.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this is a no-brainer, but why aren't these projects being built on pistol chamberings?

Greg </div></div>

My original idea was to use the 500 S&W as I had an Encore in that chambering. Three drawbacks: 1.) No long pointy bullets in true .500" diameter. Heavy cast yes, but really crappy BC's. I wanted more range than a musket. 2.) Semi-rimmed or rimmed cases are hard to get to feed in anything but a single shot. I wanted fast follow-on shots. 3.) Standard factory twist rates for pistol caliber barrels are waaay to slow to stabilize the very long tapered bullets.

The 458 Socom has just about the same case capacity as the 500 S&W, there were .458" bullets available in the shape I wanted and I got barrel blanks made with fast twists for cheap. Rebated rim of the case feeds fine in Savage center-feed. All issues solved. It isn't a pistol caliber, but it is legal for deer when rifle hunting in Indiana. It met all my requirements.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wicked Weapons</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe this is a no-brainer, but why aren't these projects being built on pistol chamberings?

Greg </div></div>

My original idea was to use the 500 S&W as I had an Encore in that chambering. Three drawbacks: 1.) No long pointy bullets in true .500" diameter. Heavy cast yes, but really crappy BC's. I wanted more range than a musket. 2.) Semi-rimmed or rimmed cases are hard to get to feed in anything but a single shot. I wanted fast follow-on shots. 3.) Standard factory twist rates for pistol caliber barrels are waaay to slow to stabilize the very long tapered bullets.

The 458 Socom has just about the same case capacity as the 500 S&W, there were .458" bullets available in the shape I wanted and I got barrel blanks made with fast twists for cheap. Rebated rim of the case feeds fine in Savage center-feed. All issues solved. It isn't a pistol caliber, but it is legal for deer when rifle hunting in Indiana. It met all my requirements. </div></div>

WW some comments on the technical aspects:

1) Long and pointy doesn't help at subsonic speeds, it actually hinders and a teardrop going through the air is far more efficient than a standard projectile. It also makes a lot less projectile noise, even at subsonic speeds, than a regular bullet does.

2) For fast follow ups and mag fed stuff you might take a look at the Ruger 44 mag bolt action as it has either 3 or 5 round magazines and you can get store-bought projectiles at 330gr or make your own that approach 450gr all without going to a faster than normal twist.

3) Building on the commentary from #1, the aerodynamically optimal shapes for high subsonic (compressible, subsonic flow) will stabilize at extreme weights compared to their supersonic rifle counterparts.

The information in #1 and #3 comes from computational fluids software developed by myself and the co-founder of our budding engineering firm and development work that we've been working now for about 2 years in various aspects of the CFD realm in small arms ballistics.

A 45acp isn't a really good setup for this in all regards but a 44 mag and 500 SW mag make excellent, affordable, subsonic calibers.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 45acp isn't a really good setup for this in all regards but a 44 mag and 500 SW mag make excellent, affordable, subsonic calibers. </div></div>

Agreed. For the 500 S&W in my 15" Encore pistol I am currently loading Remington 385gr. core-lokt hollow points over 16.5gr of Trail-Boss and getting 990-1015 fps. Bullets are seated out past revolver length to take all the powder without compressing. Accuracy is good. Recoil is mild. Simple, easy and requires nothing expensive or fancy. It makes deer dead too. It just ain't very sexy.

R&D with the 458 Socom/Lehigh combo is my attempt to get bigger bullets at subsonic velocities to longer ranges with better accuracy and more terminal effect. There is still a lot of work in progress, but the results are encouraging so far. There are likely other/better avenues to my goal, this is just the one I've decided to try first.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

Maybe I have overlooked it but I see nothing mentioned about 308 winchester with using either Trail Boss or Clays. Hodgdon lists data for them in the online reloading manual. A buddy is shooting about 10 gr. of the Trail Boss with a 180 grain round nose and getting some outstanding accuracy and very cheap to shoot. With his can on it is silly quiet and with a clean barrel it usually will shoot under 1 moa.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K&KCustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe I have overlooked it but I see nothing mentioned about 308 winchester with using either Trail Boss or Clays. Hodgdon lists data for them in the online reloading manual. A buddy is shooting about 10 gr. of the Trail Boss with a 180 grain round nose and getting some outstanding accuracy and very cheap to shoot. With his can on it is silly quiet and with a clean barrel it usually will shoot under 1 moa.</div></div>
That is because the word "ultimate" was used in the subject line.
 
Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

archery ? crossbow ?
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Re: What is the ultimate subsonic round?

It is hard to beat an old beat up Hyundai for a very good subsonic projectile, maybe not the best but pretty good. That round is deadly on dead, as proven by me repeatedly when I lived in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. The effects on the deer were pretty devastating and the round maintained at least 98% of its mass after harvesting the deer. For a round with that much weight the range is outstanding and the recoil minimal.

wade
 
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