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Suppressors Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

blade

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Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 17, 2009
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Woodbridge NJ
My agency recently purchased suppressors for our sniper team. The cans are thread ons and installed on custom Remington 700s with Krieger barrels. We are experiencing a POI change of our cold bore shots of +1" or more. We are also experiencing this if the rifle is allowed to sit for approximately 15 minutes without being fired. The cans are NOT being removed at any time and are printing nicely after the first round is shot. We've confirmed this through a number of cold bore shots and strings of fire with one round being shot approximately every 15 minutes. The deviation seems to be fairly repeatable.

Dialing in dope to overcome the issue is not an option right now.

We contacted the manufacturer (not looking to flame anyone) who explained that its common with the first round pop and the oxygen built up in the can. A suggestion of keeping the bolt closed,empty chamber, between strings of fire was made-to eliminate the amount of oxygen allowed into the can-(may not be possible depending on the range nor is it safe if going to post targets). He also explained that this is common across the board with all manufacturers, which I find had to believe.

This is our first exposure to suppressed precision rifles so we have nothing to compare to.

Is this a common issue with all suppressor manufacturers? Is there a way to eliminate the issue? Thanks for any help and advice.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

I have several cans and one particular can has this type of issue...Gemtech HVT...it was originally a Quick detach mount but I had issues with it printing all over the place so I sent it back to the manufacture to change it to a direct thread on. It still has the issue of the wandering first round - cold bore shot but is better than it was as a QD. Then I got a Thunderbeast 30P-1 and once I got it zeroed it doesn't have a cold bore issue. From the first shot to the last it shoots where I aim it.

So, to answer your question it is not with all suppressors but it is with some. Without knowing the manufacture it will be pure speculation on your particular problems.

When I start hearing the manufacturer start talking about first round this or that and oxygen in the suppressor it makes me think they have heard of the issues before but can't really figure out how to fix it with their suppressor process but really just hope you go away.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

Are you allowed to fire the suppressors wet, and is it just dept policy that won't allow you too dial in dope?
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

My thoughts. Point of Impact (POI) change and to a lesser extent First Round Pop (FRP) is experienced, to some degree, with every make of can.

I think it would help us all if you told us the first round POI location (as opposed to the following grouping).

It is important to remember that POI can be caused by a number of issues and those same issues can "stack." In other words, multiple reasons can come into play.

In a general way:

1. The weight of the suppressor. The addition of anything to the barrel, whether from the pressure of a fore-end (non float), the addition of a muzzle brake, flash hider, etc. will effect accuracy to some degree. It is for that very reason that adding the weight of a suppressor to the very end of a barrel causes Point of Impact (POI) changes. Heavier the can the more the barrel will be effected and is the reason some go with more expensive lighter materials in their suppressors. This would effect every round fired, and as such, appears not to be your problem.

2. The baffle stack. There are numerous configurations and designs found within cans. They all can have great consequences to accuracy and repeatability of POI. Depending on make and model, one can see huge differences between "monocore" (single monolithic machined cores) and more traditional cone baffles. Even within each of those catagories, whether the designer makes his stack asymmetrical, uniform and balanced at each baffle or uses a series of off axis gas paths can make a huge difference. Precision cans, the very best ones, that I have seen all have the same characteristics, they use fully formed and concentric conical baffles, not monocores. This can effect cans as they heat up as well, making it a possible contributor to your problem.

3. Chambers, size and "timing". From the design of the blast chamber, to the size of each post baffle chamber, it all matters for real accuracy and FRP suppression. Here is where we can see the effects of blast chamber design and First Round Pop. Too much oxygen early in the stack and the probability of signifcant FRP is almost assured. This is most likely your problem.

4. QD or screw on. This can matter, but not always. In my experience it has to do with the design of the brake itself, the manner the brake's ports are "cut off" and the resulting dwell and heat sink surrounding the captured jet effects. This also can develop with heat effect, possibly your problem, but I think not.

5. Any manufacturer can produce a can with little or no POI shift. It is fast, cheap and easy to do. Just overbore the can until it all goes away. Some do and, as expected, their cans are loud. The trick, the skill is to produce as high a tolerance bore stack as you can to increase suppression and maintain accuracy. Very few people I speak with recognize that the highest performance suppressor will always provide "boost", that means a perfect 12 oclock rise as the can itself generates additional velocity. Few cans are that good, and fewer people want anything other than as little POI shift as they can get. So we see suppression gladly traded for lack of shift at this ultra high end of the suppressor spectrum.

What to do?

You appear to have both FRP and POI shift, and for the time being you should try the following.

1. Make sure your round has as little unburnt powder entering the can as possible. You did not mention barrel length, in your case it might matter to know. Overcharged loads, allowing for propellant to burn in the blast/primary, will set off FRP in just about any suppressor. You did not mention sub sonic performance or requirement. That leads me to wonder what about FRP is driving your requirement to suppress it. Significant FRP as it relates to revealing position is a study all unto itself and if that is your concern, I would tell you that those that have this as a priority include it on their list right below accuracy and blast suppression (the point being accuracy is first.)

2. Try introducing an artificial gas environment prior to the first round being fired. Rather than to spell this out, ask your armorer to pursue this. There are a number of ways to do this. Remembering that this is an extra step that some will employ that involves charging the can with gas, it requires thoughtful attention if the technique you will use requires the bolt be closed on a chambered round. I would note that ablatives (oils, even the lightest of oils) may not help in the least and can cause considerable issues in centerfire rifle cartridges. Equally unhelpful is charging the can and sealing the end cap with anything that is expected to be removed by the projectile.

Lastly, it is true that some cans are First Round Pop offenders. They cannot really be "fixed" as the designs and tolerances held in those cans simply make them a poor choice in this regard.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

Thanks for the responses guys. Thunder..great post.

They are not Gemtechs. As I said I'm not here to bash anyone, just to gather info to work with. I will say that the manufacturer was spot on with all the claims about his product except the first round shift, which for our application I feel we should have been made aware of. A call to him made us aware that it is a consistent issue with his cans.

Our barrels are 22" with a thread on can and no muzzle brake. 22"s was chosen to ensure all the powder was burnt in the barrel. The cans are made of Titanium throughout. Duty ammo is FGMM 168s which we all shoot exclusively. My POI shift is 1.5" right with good elevation. A teammates shift is 2moa left and 2 moa low. Which to me is a little extreme.

I am our departments armorer and I've been taking copious notes,as I said we are new to suppresed bolt guns so its a learning curve. As far as shooting them wet,no policy. Dope changes are not on the table at this time for our application. My concern is follow up shots with dope dialed in to compensate for first round offset. After the first round is gone things return to zero, then holdoffs come in to play. Charging with gas has been discussed but seconds may count and we may not have the luxury of doing so.

We'll be back on the range tomorrow to gather more info and dope. If the issue remains a constant I have a feeling they're getting boxed up and returned.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

There's a difference between bashing and being factual.
If you feel comfortable letting us know the manufacturer and model, I for one would appreciate it.
Thanks.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

It's a problem I haven't experienced with any of the suppressors I've worked with, but it sounds like something unique to the design of your suppressors is causing a 1.5-2MOA shift on the first round.

Obviously bolt guns often have a clean cold bore shift anyway, so if your department isn't letting you compensate for that, I don't know how you are supposed to work.

Maybe you could time the cans so that the shift works to counter the clean cold bore shift of your rifles and make this a non issue. The first round with LE sounds like the only one that will matter in most cases.

If liability is the primary concern, perhaps the suppressor is just a tool you don't have a tactical need for, and you are better off without, or that you could employ when it benefits the senario and otherwise not use.

There are several tactical benefits to suppressors, some of which increase and some of which decrease a LE/Sniper liability.

The benefits are:
Decreased recoil and muzzle rise (potential for the shooter to spot impact in the event the spotter fails) [most useful when engaging multiple targets or at very long range]
Decreased flash sound and dust signature (this helps when people are expected to be shooting at you) [most often a military senario]
Decreased risk of hearing damage to bystanders / panic / riot in heavily populated areas like stadiums or events [this is mostly a LE concern]

The negative:
You are putting something in front and very near to the bullet flight path. Obviously this increases risk of bullet deviation from the flight path over blind muzzle.
Increased system weight and length

If you don't expect to have to be shooting very near to bystanders, to take multiple shots, or to have people shooting at you, it may be better for liability to have no can.

Apparently The American Sniper Assn. (ASA) recently released the Police Sniper Utilization Report. The data was gathered from 219 sniper shootings over a twenty year period. According to the report the national average is 51 yards.
Other points of interest is that 60% of snipers took the shot within 50 yards. 97% of the engagements took place under 100 yards.

So if you can hit the target with the first round inside 100 yards, that suggests 97% mission success probability. This would suggest that you may be able time your cans into a working configuration by taking advantage of your clean cold bore flier deviation.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

Life is too short to shoot shit suppressors. Did you try these out before you bought them? Cold bore shift is not acceptable nor is it the norm for a quality can. Who makes these cans? They should help you through your issues.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendy300wm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you allowed to fire the suppressors wet, and is it just dept policy that won't allow you too dial in dope? </div></div>

Using an ablative in most centerfire rifle suppressors is usually a real good way to destroy said suppressor. The overpressure caused can blow out a can.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

This!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Azprc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very common in the suppressor world. </div></div>
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

Our clean cold and dirty cold shift without suppressors is so minimal there is no concern, no department policy because its not a concern ,we've documented many cold bore rounds clean,dirty and different weather conditions to support this. I'm sure there are cans out there that will perform (cold clean/cold dirty) the same as our unsuppressed rifles.

Griffin, public alarm, hearing loss and riot are major concerns due to our poulation density. A can would definately be a benefit in this regard.

We are all members of the American Sniper Association. We have read their study on LE engagements. Although statistically the engagements we may see are well under 100 yards the possibility of a shot at a much greater distance always exists and we train for that.

The manufacturer has been good about this all along. The disappointing part is that when we called with our concern about the first round shift he said he was well aware of it and had other LE agency complaining about the same issue and offered that this is a problem associated with all cans.

We did shoot the cans on his supplied rifle and ammo before the purchase. Our testing started when he delivered them and we installed on our rifles.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

If the manufacture says that this is a common issue with their product, well then there are suppressors available that don't have this problem.
I would recommend that you test a few different ones and relegate the suppressors that you purchased to animal control.

For a top notch precision suppressor, the list is fairly short.
The TBAC 30P-1 has a fantastic reputation and most report zero POI shift.
Shark and Surefire are two others that immediately come to mind.
Both of which also have good reputations in regard to POI shift.

One other thing to look into is the threading of your barrels.
If they are factory threaded, they may be true enough to not have baffel strikes, but still be off enough it inject uneven turbulence in the can.

It has been my experience that a suppressed precision rifle can be just as accurate and consistent and an unsuppressed rifle.
In my case, it is even more accurate.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rbdub474</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mendy300wm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Are you allowed to fire the suppressors wet, and is it just dept policy that won't allow you too dial in dope? </div></div>

Using an ablative in most centerfire rifle suppressors is usually a real good way to destroy said suppressor. The overpressure caused can blow out a can. </div></div>

Really I have shot my 300wm through my 7.62ss Surefire can wet plenty of times and she's still going strong
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

I'm interested in the mechanics involved in not recommending artificial environments with centerfire rifle cartridges.
Is the overpressure that's been mentioned caused by the ignition of the volatile ablative, but it's not an issue with water?
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dr. Phil</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the manufacture says that this is a common issue with their product, well then there are suppressors available that don't have this problem.
I would recommend that you test a few different ones and relegate the suppressors that you purchased to animal control.

For a top notch precision suppressor, the list is fairly short.
The TBAC 30P-1 has a fantastic reputation and most report zero POI shift.
Shark and Surefire are two others that immediately come to mind.
Both of which also have good reputations in regard to POI shift.

One other thing to look into is the threading of your barrels.
If they are factory threaded, they may be true enough to not have baffel strikes, but still be off enough it inject uneven turbulence in the can.

It has been my experience that a suppressed precision rifle can be just as accurate and consistent and an unsuppressed rifle.
In my case, it is even more accurate.
</div></div>


This + 1

Everyone of my sticks shoot better with the cans on.
C/L of the bore vs C/L of the stack or core is everything. Only adjustment you should have to make from no can, to can on is up only, due to barrel droop. If it's a Ti can on a 20" varmint taper or better it should be no more than 1/2 moa max .
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

What a solid read.

Here are some targets shot recently by a gifted operator. These were shot through top suppressors designed explicitely for the elimination of all issues surrounding accuracy, from round #1 to whatever. They are also stupendously quiet.

I erased the names of the cans because it simply does not matter. The important issue is.....

No, not all cans experience the problem you have and no you do not have to live with it.

First can -

NOTNAMED1.jpg



Second can -

NOTNAMED2.jpg



dOOd, water can be the greatest offender. We split your term "artificial environment" into three major headings:

1. Mechanical (mesh/steel cloth/foamed metals/etc.)
2. Ablatives (liguids..including grease, oil, water, gels)
3. Gases

Only the second catagory can be a problem because of the much higher pressures found in centerfire rifle cartridges. It has little to do with ignition and mostly to do with hydraulic pressures.






 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

I don't normally see a POI shift from first round to the next few, but it does happen. If the cans are Ti, you might try a teaspoon of water in the rear chamber of the unit just prior to attaching it. If this removes the problem, then we know that the issue is in fact the air in the can and the blast chamber design, which is the most likely problem.

I'm currently using Gemtech, Surefire and AAC suppresors, both thread on and fast attach. None of these have any discernable first round shift and the can on/can off shift is under 1 MOA over 8 seperate rifles/suppressor systems.

I'd advise returning the current units and getting the mfg to supply a corrected design or look at a different supplier. Since you have rifles that are threaded and ready to use, you should be able to get a demo unit transferred to you for T&E to prove the unit on your rifles.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

We had a chance to test out the AAC Cyclone yesterday. I can say that it performed very well. No first round shift, good sound reduction, and repeatable within less than 1 moa when removed and reinstalled. We still have a bit more testing to do with it but right now it looks good. Still waiting to see if Thunderbeast can send us a can for T&E.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

Contact Dale Poling with Elite Iron Suppressors. The cans they build are top notch in my opinion. If there suppressor is timed to the gun there is little to no POI change. Hope this helps. I have several of there cans and they are great people to deal with.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

My SAS titanium Arbitor causes a POI shift of 2 MOA down for my 308 and a 3 MOA down for my 243. However there is no difference between first round and subsequent rounds.

And I find that both rifles shoot tighter groups with the suppressor than without, especially the 243.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We had a chance to test out the AAC Cyclone yesterday. I can say that it performed very well. No first round shift, good sound reduction, and repeatable within less than 1 moa when removed and reinstalled. We still have a bit more testing to do with it but right now it looks good. Still waiting to see if Thunderbeast can send us a can for T&E. </div></div>

Just wanted to put a plug in for AAC Cyclone....I have been running it for several years with no cold bore shift. I don't shoot without it now.....most people here on the hide are fans of the TBAC but i think the Cyclone should be mentioned along with other high performing cans. Very quiet and dead on accurate. I chose the AAC only because I had experience with them before. I am sure the TBAC is awesome as well but I don't own it so I can't comment on it.
 
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Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

+1 for TBAC. My rifle has not been shot without it since the day I got it. Have never seen a POI shift with it.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

I have seen this issue with some of our prototypes (after 1000+ rounds), the design allowed wear of secondary threads. So the first round would pressurize the can, take out some play and the following rounds would be ok. Since that time we have designed out any possibility of this kind of issue.

Can you feel any play anywhere in the can when its threaded on?

We only have 0.75" shift directly high from unsuppressed to suppressed, and for can re-attachment there is no shift, as well as no shift from cold to hot.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

No play at all with the first cans. I've had more time to test the AAC Cyclone, it performs very well. Pretty darn quiet also.
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm currently using Gemtech, Surefire and AAC suppresors, both thread on and fast attach. None of these have any discernable first round shift and the can on/can off shift is under 1 MOA over 8 seperate rifles/suppressor systems.</div></div>

Very interested onlooker here.

I have an AAC 762-SDN-6 mounted on their 51T quick-disconnect mount. It wiggles when attached. The manual (and the AAC rep) state that it isn't a problem, and indeed, the rifle shoots quite precisely (even if there is a constant, repeatable 2 MOA POI shift.)

My question is: "If concentricity of both barrel and suppressor threads is so important (to prevent turbulent instabilities) in a thread-on can, how can it be OK to have a QD can that wiggles around when it is attached? Doesn't that 'wiggle' introduce turbulence? And if so, why is my rifle more precise with the can than it is without it. And why does the manufacturer claim it's 'Not a problem?'"
 
Re: Law Enforcement Suppressor Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm currently using Gemtech, Surefire and AAC suppresors, both thread on and fast attach. None of these have any discernable first round shift and the can on/can off shift is under 1 MOA over 8 seperate rifles/suppressor systems.</div></div>

Very interested onlooker here.

I have an AAC 762-SDN-6 mounted on their 51T quick-disconnect mount. It wiggles when attached. The manual (and the AAC rep) state that it isn't a problem, and indeed, the rifle shoots quite precisely (even if there is a constant, repeatable 2 MOA POI shift.)

My question is: "If concentricity of both barrel and suppressor threads is so important (to prevent turbulent instabilities) in a thread-on can, how can it be OK to have a QD can that wiggles around when it is attached? Doesn't that 'wiggle' introduce turbulence? And if so, why is my rifle more precise with the can than it is without it. And why does the manufacturer claim it's 'Not a problem?'" </div></div>

They overbore the exit hole to take that wiggle into account. Why AAC does not go back to the drawing boards and redesign their mounts, I have no clue. But I would like to see them go for a better system. I take all my brakes from AAC to a machine shop and have them fitted to the suppressors. They lock up tight now, but its a service that most people don't have access to, so that is not fair to the consumer. I want to see them make a new mount because the 18t and the 51t are not up to par. The newer 90t mount is a lot better but there is still room for improvement.