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Gunsmithing Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

kortik

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Apr 6, 2010
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www.borkatools.com
Here is the picture of the sheared cross bolt, used with EGW HD tactical rings. Nut was torqued to 65 inch-lbs., per EGW recommenations.
EGW%20cross%20bolt.JPG

This bolt has, what appears to be, 10-32 threaded shank, at least this is what I was able to determine by using calipers and comparing it to the actual 10-32 screw.

It is certainly heat treated, as evident by both the appearance of the sheared area and some primitive test done with use of the file.

Anyway, doing some research on the net, I was somewhat puzzled by that 65 inch-lbs. recommendation. It seems to me, that 65 inch-lbs. is a good torque value for 1/4"-28 and similar diameter threads, which even grade 2 bolt can handle safely. But for 10-32, recoomended torque values are in the range from 20 inch-lbs. to 60 inch-lbs., depending upon the grade of the bolt, and no more than 50 inch-lbs. if threads are lubed. This crossbolt must be at least grade 8 if there is a chance for it at all to resist stress occuring at 65 inch-lbs. in static, but what about integrity of the same bolt repeatedly exposed to recoil impulse?

Any practical suggestions or opinions regarding correct torque values for 10-32 threads?
Is 65 inch-lbs. realistically a good torque value to be applied to 10-32? If not, what torque would you use?
Could you tell, by looking at the sheared area, what is the likely cause of the bolt failure?

Thank you for your input.

Boris
Borka Tools

 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

I would not go over 50 on a #10.

I generally torque as follows:

1/4 60 inch
#10 45 inch
#8 30 inch
#6 18 inch
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not go over 50 on a #10.

I generally torque as follows:

1/4 60 inch
#10 45 inch
#8 30 inch
#6 18 inch </div></div>

I'm in complete agreement with your recommendations. 45 inch-lbs. for 10-32 is plenty strong and safe enough. Still can't figure out that 65 inch-lbs. recommendation from EGW, seems like a lot of torque for 10-32. Could it be that it was originally applicable to 1/4" screws and was not appropriately adjusted to the cross bolt with 10-32 threads?
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

That bolt Boris posted a pic of is mine. I called EGW this week and they swore they had never heard of one of their bolts shearing. I have sheared a few, and I don't think it is a bad batch, I think it is incorrect or unclear instructions from EGW as to the torque specs.

I torqued the bolts to 65 in/lbs per the package instructions with a Borka, but did it wet (wet includes lube or Loctite). Boris told me that the 65 is torqued dry, and EGW confirmed this. Yet EGW mentions blue loctite in their torque instructions for their mounts. I have always measured torque on a wet bolt (cars, guns, bikes, etc) so dry numbers were foreign to me - learned something new!

For total clarity, there is nothing wrong with my torque wrench. In fact Boris has gone above and beyond to test the wrench and ensure it is within spec. The Borka is a solid and reliable tool.

Even dry, it seems 65 in/lbs may be much for the size bolt shown.
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

Wet vs dry is a huge difference Here is a chart that gives you an idea of what "wet" gets you compared to dry threads. Also torque values differ depending on the class of thread fit and type of fastener ( bolt and nut take much less than a socket head cap screw)

http://www.cncexpo.com/InchBoltTorque.aspx
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

Well, a set of Seekins rings should be at my doorstep tomorrow...

And in the chart Glen referenced, it states lubricating is the preferred method, but one needs to be clear on which method given torque specs are for.
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

well thank you
smile.gif


Suggested torque is 50-55 on the clamps, and that would be dry.
Caps 15-25 (or use your scope MFG's spec if its different)

We have never used loctite on our screws, but if you must apply it around the head of the screw after its tightened down. The loctite will still work but will just be on the first couple threads and around the head.
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heatseekins</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wet vs dry is a huge difference Here is a chart that gives you an idea of what "wet" gets you compared to dry threads. Also torque values differ depending on the class of thread fit and type of fastener ( bolt and nut take much less than a socket head cap screw)

http://www.cncexpo.com/InchBoltTorque.aspx </div></div>

Glenn,

What's your take on that 65 inch-pounds torque for 10-32 threads? Even for dry threads, I personally would not consider it to be an attractive proposition, from durability point of view. Needless to say, in case of wet threads, such bolt will be simply overstressed...
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

I go off of what the machinists handbook says and i don't have it with me right now. Nuts, bolts are completely different than socket head screws like i am used to using. I do not think that 65inlbs would be far out of line if it was. ASSUMING the sheared part was made from quality steel. There is always a safety factor figured into the values. If it were socket head screw you could go over 100 safely. .

Just because its heat treated doesn't mean anything. some steel gets very brittle with heat treat.

Here is a good chart to show what you can expect with different types of "wet" threads

BOLT TORQUE FACTORS

LUBRICANT OR PLATING TORQUE CHANGES
Oil Reduce torque 15% to 25%
Dry Film (Teflon or moly based) Reduce torque 50%
Dry Wax (Cetyl alcohol) Reduce torque 50%
Chrome plating No change
Cadmium plating Reduce torque 25%
Zinc plating Reduce torque 15%
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be that it was originally applicable to 1/4" screws and was not appropriately adjusted to the cross bolt with 10-32 threads? </div></div>

That would be my guess.
 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kortik</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Could it be that it was originally applicable to 1/4" screws and was not appropriately adjusted to the cross bolt with 10-32 threads? </div></div>

That would be my guess. </div></div>

That would be also the only reasonable explanation I got...

 
Re: Scope rings cross bolt - your opinions, please...

The table I have in front of me suggests 68 in-lb dry, 51 in-lb lubed for Grade 8. I usually don't assume that anything is above Grade 5 unless it's marked accordingly, so that would put it at 49/36 dry/lubed. Standard grades of Loctite aren't the greatest thread lubricant, so it might be possible to shoot for a torque somewhere in-between the dry and lubed values when using that compound. If in doubt, go with the lower value; we're not torquing rod bolts or wheel lugs.

The load that the fastener experiences in recoil is likely trivial compared to the load applied during assembly. Even the lesser values from above result in a clamp load of 1285 lbs. Considering that the surface friction between the ring clamping surface and the mounting rail will take some of the force, I'm guessing that the crossbolt could be much wimpier and still not deform due to recoil.