Bushing dies?

[FamilyMan]

I Have a .243 w/factory chamber and am wondering if i am going to see a noticeable difference(worth spending the money) in my rounds if I start sizing with a FL bushing die bumping the shoulder back .002 vs just the standard FL w expander ball and still bumping back .002 That i use now? to my understanding the bushing die just helps reduce run out and works the brass less but does that translate to noticeable accuracy increase or just case life?

also if i was to get a bushing die, how do i measure to find the size bushings that i need? i have been searching the site and havent found it yet

 

[roggom]

Re: Bushing dies?

I like the fact of working the brass less and consistent neck tension. As for measuring, you take a loaded cartridge and measure the neck, then subtract 1 thou. It used to be 2 thou but Redding now suggest 1.


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[FLIGHT762]

Re: Bushing dies?


Like the above post recommends, measure the O/D of a loaded round and subtract .001"-.002". This measurement will change depending on what brass you use.

Here's some other threads on the subject:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...355#Post3257355

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...417#Post2944417

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...526#Post2863526

 

[FamilyMan]

Re: Bushing dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you take a loaded cartridge and measure the neck, then subtract 1 thou. It used to be 2 thou but Redding now suggest 1.</div></div>
Is only .001 neck tension to light to be used in a firearm that is used in the field and matches where your not just firing from s bench but moving around a lot? I only ask because I thought I had read somewhere that .001 neck tension was only for bench guns.

 

[roggom]

Re: Bushing dies?

I went with the Redding recommendation. http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips

I hunt and shoot recreationally, using a 308, 178 Amax and Lapua brass. My loaded ammo measures .338 and I run a .337 bushing. Now my loads are compressed Varget 2.830 and thicker brass. I can not push twist the bullets by hand. Even seated with two hands I can not push the bullet in further against my bench.

If you loads are longer seated and thin cases, you might want to go with .002 or more, but I have not had a bullet come unseated. either way, I would recommend reworking your load to ensure the pressure hasnt increased.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Bushing dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you take a loaded cartridge and measure the neck, then subtract 1 thou. It used to be 2 thou but Redding now suggest 1.</div></div>
Is only .001 neck tension to light to be used in a firearm that is used in the field and matches where your not just firing from s bench but moving around a lot? I only ask because I thought I had read somewhere that .001 neck tension was only for bench guns. </div></div>
Yes. IMO, ,001" is not near enough for a hunting or tac rifle. I run .003" tension as a minimum and .004" to .005" normally. When you load enough ammo, not all your cases will be exactly the same neck thickness, and with .001" clearance, you will have some bullets seat very soft. I ran .002" tension for a while on my 300 WM, and I often had bullets that moved out or got pushed in. It's dangerous, IMO, running .001" tension.

 

[roggom]

Re: Bushing dies?

^^ I respect your opinion as you seem to reload for a living. I would be curious if you can run that by Redding or Forster and see how they respond. Just that it seems they changed their specs for a reason, I am guessing pressure, but not sure. I just can not see them recommending .001 if it were dangerous.

Not trying to prove anyone wrong or right, but rather validate the "standard."

 

[Clark]

Re: Bushing dies?

I used a Redding FL "S" die on .223 for years. Thousands of rodents died.
I had Forster, RCBS, Lee, and Lee collet neck dies sitting on the shelf gathering dust.

I decided to test the dies.

I have (4) factory .223 rifles and (1) 223 rifle with a .250" neck.
I measured the headpace of each rifle and the neck length space of each rifle and calculated how much should set back I would need worst case and how much trim I would need worst case [assuming the firing pin pushes the cartridge forward until the case shoulder touches the chamber shoulder].
I would take a random selection of 22 pieces of brass [each population dedicated to a die] then load them at 66 kpsi [a little hotter than 55 kpsi SAAMI registered pressure. I would have gone even hotter, but that was all the powder that would fit.] fire them [in a Ruger #1] and reload them and fire them 10 times and measure the case length growth and measure concentricity run out of the final ammo. I was trimming with an RCBS 3 way cutter in a vertical milling machine with a Lee Shell holder and Lee lock stud in the mill vise. I was measuring concentricity with a Sinclair concentricity gauge. No brass were harmed with expander balls in this test, as a more benign Lee decapping die was used.

What I learned was:
1) The Redding FL "S" die was worst for case growth and concentricity.
2) The Lee collet neck die was best for case growth and concentricity.
3) The best for concentricity with the shoulder pushed back was with using first the Lee collet neck die and then sizing with a factory honed out neck Forster FL die.
4) Pushing the shoulder back so far that it will fit in any of 5 different rifles results in a lot of trimming.
5) Brass shrinks when fired and grows even more when FL sized [grows a tiny amount when neck sized]. The hotter the load, the more the brass shrinks when fired.

How did my behavior change as the result of the tests?
1) The Redding FL "S" die now gathers dust on the shelf.
2) The Lee Collet neck die gets used.
3) I dedicate brass to a single rifle.
4) No more setting all shoulders back far enough for any of the rifles.

 

[2Shots]

Re: Bushing dies?

I shoot 243 in competitions like a lot on here do. I don't push the round that hard, usually in the 2950 to 2975 range with a 115 so I neck size only. I haven't had to bump the shoulder back yet, but if I ahve test loaded rounds in the 3050 to 3100 range and I would probably need to bump, they are a little stiff. I have been loading with a redding bushing die with a .001" undersize bushing. The bullets go in soft, I think a little too soft. I have had a round stick in the lands and pulled the bullet out in a match leaving the bullet stuck in the forcing cone and powder everywhere. Thankfully a buddy had a rod with him so I didn't miss a stage. But I load to within about .010" of the lands so there isn't much room for error, It might have worked long in the mag from recoil but I can't be sure. So try a couple of loads and see for yourself.

 

[ChadTRG42]

Re: Bushing dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The bullets go in soft, I think a little too soft. I have had a round stick in the lands and pulled the bullet out in a match leaving the bullet stuck in the forcing cone and powder everywhere. </div></div>
^^ This is why. I've seen this many, many times in comps and at the range.

Can you size to .001" tension- Sure. I used to also. But not anymore. There simply is not enough tension to properly hold a bullet in place for competition shooting or hunting. If you baby your ammo from the ammo box to the chamber, single feed your rounds, and fire each round after chambering, then .001" tension might work for you. 90% of the shooters on this forum, a .001" neck tension would not apply to. We carry our ammo in a pack, in ammo boxes or loaded magazines, fire multiple rounds at a time, and often eject loaded rounds from the chamber. If you use .001" tension in these situations, you risk sticking bullets in the rifling, bullets moving or falling out of the case, and bullets being seated deeper when in mags or during recoil. So, load .001" tension at your own risk. I used to load to .001" tension to help gain accuracy. And I can't tell the difference between my .003-.004" tension and .001" tension. I don't see a benefit in my group sizes or fps ES in my comp and hunting guns. It's not worth the risk.

 

[2Shots]

Re: Bushing dies?

Thanks Chad glad to hear I wasn't the only one. Funny you mentioned the .003 to .004 tension. I shot the tennessee prs match last weekend and need to take 225 rounds of ammo. I only had about 175 rounds of fire formed brass so I was forced to use new brass with my neck sized brass. I was concerned about different neck tensions and the affect on group size and accuracy so I went to the range and shot 4 groups side by side at 400 yds to see the difference side by side with the sized and light tension next to the new and tight tension. Well lets just say it was a surprise, the new tight necked new loads shot inside my fire formed loads, not sure why but they did. They were both good groups 2" to 3" but both times the new were a little better and exact same point of impact.

 

[FamilyMan]

Re: Bushing dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^ I respect your opinion as you seem to reload for a living. I would be curious if you can run that by Redding or Forster and see how they respond. Just that it seems they changed their specs for a reason, I am guessing pressure, but not sure. I just can not see them recommending .001 if it were dangerous.

Not trying to prove anyone wrong or right, but rather validate the "standard."</div></div>
I called redding and talked to Chris in the tech support and he told me to subtract .002 and then possible order the .003 as well to be on the safe side which contradicts the video but makes sense to me because the .001 just seems too light for anything but a dedicated bench gun.

 

[Down South]

Re: Bushing dies?

I shoot Lapua brass and to this day, the best groups I have ever shot was brand spanking new brass straight out of the box with zero prep work. Go figure.

 

[roggom]

Re: Bushing dies?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^ I respect your opinion as you seem to reload for a living. I would be curious if you can run that by Redding or Forster and see how they respond. Just that it seems they changed their specs for a reason, I am guessing pressure, but not sure. I just can not see them recommending .001 if it were dangerous.

Not trying to prove anyone wrong or right, but rather validate the "standard."</div></div>
I called redding and talked to Chris in the tech support and he told me to subtract .002 and then possible order the .003 as well to be on the safe side which contradicts the video but makes sense to me because the .001 just seems too light for anything but a dedicated bench gun. </div></div>

Cool, thanks for the follow up, I will go ahead and email them to get their online info straight. The paragraph I cited also contradicts the info in their FAQ page; which also mentions .002. I have all three, .335, .336 and .337 so looks like I will be switching out the bushing. I dont have to worry about bullets getting stuck in the lands, as I seat mine deep, but I do transport them loose in a Lapua blue box in the back of my Jeep. Tracking Antelope can be like on safari, going across dirt roads and open prairie. I can just imagine those cartridges banging around like a frickin Yahtzee cup.