I loaded some once fired brass I got from the hide and the primers are backing out even with 43.7 grains of varget then 44.1 had a sticky bolt and primers and then 44.3 and 44.5 had the primers backing out too. All loads were 5 rounds each and even the sub sonic loads had the primers backing out with 11.0 10.5 and 10.0 of trailboss. Thats all the rounds I tried I had lapua brass after 5 loads I noticed the primers but it could have been doing it the whole time. My rifle is a rem 700 sps varmint well was the barrel is the factory varmint now at 24 inches with a 762SD suppressor the brass was hornady and 168 grain Amax for super sonic and 180 rn for subs. The fps was about 2579 to 2612 for the 44.1 out of 5 and thats as hight as it would go for all the others. Please help
- Thread starter Snipenace
- Start date
Re: Please help me
Do they feel a bit tight when you close the bolt? The reason I ask is that I was having slight pressure problems like that and it took me awhile to realize that I was making the rounds too long. Not much, but enough to seat the bullet into the lands a bit and raise the pressure.
Do they feel a bit tight when you close the bolt? The reason I ask is that I was having slight pressure problems like that and it took me awhile to realize that I was making the rounds too long. Not much, but enough to seat the bullet into the lands a bit and raise the pressure.
Re: Please help me
I had a similar issue when a barrel was dirtier than I realized which also raised the pressure. The barrel would appear to be clean, but some stubborn fouling was just not showing up on the patches. Again, sticky bolt and ejector marks on the brass.
I had a similar issue when a barrel was dirtier than I realized which also raised the pressure. The barrel would appear to be clean, but some stubborn fouling was just not showing up on the patches. Again, sticky bolt and ejector marks on the brass.
Re: Please help me
"...the primers are backing out ..."
Primers can only back out if there is room for them to do so, that is 'excess cartridger headspace' and it's quite common. When chamber pressure gets high enough the case will stretch, forcing the head back to the bolt face and squishing the primer flat to make those who believe in flat primer fairy tales think it's over pressure. Back off on your sizer so the shoulders aren't set back too much, the cases will fit correctly and your primers won't back out.
Then drive up to Hartwell, hit the Swamp Guinnie restraunt and have a belly buster good meal!
"...the primers are backing out ..."
Primers can only back out if there is room for them to do so, that is 'excess cartridger headspace' and it's quite common. When chamber pressure gets high enough the case will stretch, forcing the head back to the bolt face and squishing the primer flat to make those who believe in flat primer fairy tales think it's over pressure. Back off on your sizer so the shoulders aren't set back too much, the cases will fit correctly and your primers won't back out.
Then drive up to Hartwell, hit the Swamp Guinnie restraunt and have a belly buster good meal!
Re: Please help me
Check the part of the case just above the head. That's where you'll find out about pressure. Meaning it will be bulged Were the cases annealed before you bought em? If so that could be the culprit of the sticky bolt and bad pockets meaning they were over annealed. Have done it myself. One more question, are any easier to chamber than others in relationship to locking the bolt?? That's another sign
Check the part of the case just above the head. That's where you'll find out about pressure. Meaning it will be bulged Were the cases annealed before you bought em? If so that could be the culprit of the sticky bolt and bad pockets meaning they were over annealed. Have done it myself. One more question, are any easier to chamber than others in relationship to locking the bolt?? That's another sign
Re: Please help me
My experience indicates that primer backout is often a symptom of excess headspace and/or <span style="font-style: italic">below</span> normal pressures. Subsonics tend to run low pressures, and can be especially prone to this.
The rationale is as follows.
Normally, pressure increases and the case expands to fill the chamber, and then expands further, also stretching the chamber slightly. Then pressure decreases, and everything springs back pretty much together, so the primer has nowhere to go.
When expansions are incomplete and/or unmatched because of low pressure and/or excess headspace, the primer has room to back out.
Excess pressures blow primers, and are usually preceded as pressures get greater by soot marks around the primer. If there are no soot marks, then suspicion falls more toward underpressure. This is reinforced when reducing loads does not cure the backout.
Back off your resizing die so it only resizes most, not all, of the neck, and use charges that are between book min and book max. Only resize further down the neck all the way to include the shoulder <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> the cases exhibit excessive bolt drag when closing the bolt; then return to the almost full-length neck sizing process. This bolt drag can also be a symptom of excess neck length and/or excess bullet seating length.
Short enough to close the bolt can just as easily mean the cases are too short at the shoulder. Don't let that fool ya; it can help lead to case head separations. Don't be fooled into thinking that case head separations can't happen with lower pressures. This is especially true when it's combined with excessive headspace. Cast bullet shooters using bottleneck cases learn this lesson early on.
Bottleneck cases work best with the least amount of brass resizing/movement necessary to allow rechambering. The more you work the brass, the sooner it fails/wears out.
Greg
My experience indicates that primer backout is often a symptom of excess headspace and/or <span style="font-style: italic">below</span> normal pressures. Subsonics tend to run low pressures, and can be especially prone to this.
The rationale is as follows.
Normally, pressure increases and the case expands to fill the chamber, and then expands further, also stretching the chamber slightly. Then pressure decreases, and everything springs back pretty much together, so the primer has nowhere to go.
When expansions are incomplete and/or unmatched because of low pressure and/or excess headspace, the primer has room to back out.
Excess pressures blow primers, and are usually preceded as pressures get greater by soot marks around the primer. If there are no soot marks, then suspicion falls more toward underpressure. This is reinforced when reducing loads does not cure the backout.
Back off your resizing die so it only resizes most, not all, of the neck, and use charges that are between book min and book max. Only resize further down the neck all the way to include the shoulder <span style="font-style: italic">after</span> the cases exhibit excessive bolt drag when closing the bolt; then return to the almost full-length neck sizing process. This bolt drag can also be a symptom of excess neck length and/or excess bullet seating length.
Short enough to close the bolt can just as easily mean the cases are too short at the shoulder. Don't let that fool ya; it can help lead to case head separations. Don't be fooled into thinking that case head separations can't happen with lower pressures. This is especially true when it's combined with excessive headspace. Cast bullet shooters using bottleneck cases learn this lesson early on.
Bottleneck cases work best with the least amount of brass resizing/movement necessary to allow rechambering. The more you work the brass, the sooner it fails/wears out.
Greg
Re: Please help me
Put me down as a believer in flat primer fairy tales, just not in this case. All things being equal, while doing load work up, I sure as hell pay attention to flat primers, as night follows day. Increase the charge weight and primers become progressively flattened, in my world.
Is that velocity listed, a reading for subsonic loads and ALL loads have the primer backing out, correct? I agree that a primer will not/should not back out unless there is a problem with the chamber dimensions. (edit: or the cases have been incorrectly resized)
So, you have sticky bolt and backed out primers with 44.5 grains of Varget and a 168 grain bullet, right? Are you using a suppressor with high velocity as well as subsonic loads?
BB
Put me down as a believer in flat primer fairy tales, just not in this case. All things being equal, while doing load work up, I sure as hell pay attention to flat primers, as night follows day. Increase the charge weight and primers become progressively flattened, in my world.
Is that velocity listed, a reading for subsonic loads and ALL loads have the primer backing out, correct? I agree that a primer will not/should not back out unless there is a problem with the chamber dimensions. (edit: or the cases have been incorrectly resized)
So, you have sticky bolt and backed out primers with 44.5 grains of Varget and a 168 grain bullet, right? Are you using a suppressor with high velocity as well as subsonic loads?
BB
Re: Please help me
ok thanks greg next time I load some ammo Ill try that.
And Buzz the fps I put was for the 44.1 of varget and it stayed about the same with the higher charges also but I would think it would be higher than that with a 24 inch barrel. the subs were running about 1080 at 10.0 grains of tb. and yeah I use suppressor on both
ok thanks greg next time I load some ammo Ill try that.
And Buzz the fps I put was for the 44.1 of varget and it stayed about the same with the higher charges also but I would think it would be higher than that with a 24 inch barrel. the subs were running about 1080 at 10.0 grains of tb. and yeah I use suppressor on both
Re: Please help me
Greg has it nailed I think.
Greg has it nailed I think.
Re: Please help me
and 3 of the 44.1 grain load has ejector marks and the 43.7 does not and the 44.3 does not but the 44.5 has all 5 ejector marks. The headspace from a sticky bolt case to a Fl sized case is only .004. I dont know whats going on!!!!!!! all loads have 5 rounds
and 3 of the 44.1 grain load has ejector marks and the 43.7 does not and the 44.3 does not but the 44.5 has all 5 ejector marks. The headspace from a sticky bolt case to a Fl sized case is only .004. I dont know whats going on!!!!!!! all loads have 5 rounds
Re: Please help me
ok maybe this will help
Before resizing this was a 44.5 grain charge of varget
It has a ejector mark and sticky bolt and the primer backed out to .000 from back of case.
Headspace was 1.625
Trim Length 2.005
Inside neck diameter .313
top of outside neck diameter .340
Base of neck at shoulder start.350
Neck thickness .014
At start of case and shoulder .455
And after FL sizing same case
Headspace 1.621
trim length 2.006
inside neck diameter .307
also top of neck Outside neck diameter .333
Base of neck at shoulder start .339
Neck thickness .012
At start of case and shoulder .448
Primer pocket depth .124
Primer pocket width .212
And the primers are .128 in depth
and the width is .210
And after seating that primer in that case it sets in .004
Ok thats all Anything else that might help?
ok maybe this will help
Before resizing this was a 44.5 grain charge of varget
It has a ejector mark and sticky bolt and the primer backed out to .000 from back of case.
Headspace was 1.625
Trim Length 2.005
Inside neck diameter .313
top of outside neck diameter .340
Base of neck at shoulder start.350
Neck thickness .014
At start of case and shoulder .455
And after FL sizing same case
Headspace 1.621
trim length 2.006
inside neck diameter .307
also top of neck Outside neck diameter .333
Base of neck at shoulder start .339
Neck thickness .012
At start of case and shoulder .448
Primer pocket depth .124
Primer pocket width .212
And the primers are .128 in depth
and the width is .210
And after seating that primer in that case it sets in .004
Ok thats all Anything else that might help?
Re: Please help me
Just one, not that it matters. How did your necks go from .014" to .012" after FL resizing?
Just one, not that it matters. How did your necks go from .014" to .012" after FL resizing?
Re: Please help me
Pressure indications (like ejector marks) at charge levels that should not be an issue generally indicate case necks that are too long. This is even more likely when only a few out of a batch show the symptoms.
That was the cause of the only pressure excursion (polite wording for Kaboom) that I've ever personally witnessed. Make damned sure <span style="font-style: italic">ALL</span> the necks are not too long.
Chambers with tight necks also do his with brass that hasn't been turned small enough. That is why I normally stick to using SAAMI chambers; I won't be bothered with neck turning.
With SAAMI chambers, neck turning isn't an issue, and concentricity/runout has to get pretty bad (over .003") before it impacts accuracy significantly.
Are SAAMI chambers less accurate? Yes, but good handloading diligence and effective load developent can reduce this issue to where it's quite tolerable. In return, some issues ((like concentricity and neck wall thickness) can be set aside as non-issues.
Greg
Pressure indications (like ejector marks) at charge levels that should not be an issue generally indicate case necks that are too long. This is even more likely when only a few out of a batch show the symptoms.
That was the cause of the only pressure excursion (polite wording for Kaboom) that I've ever personally witnessed. Make damned sure <span style="font-style: italic">ALL</span> the necks are not too long.
Chambers with tight necks also do his with brass that hasn't been turned small enough. That is why I normally stick to using SAAMI chambers; I won't be bothered with neck turning.
With SAAMI chambers, neck turning isn't an issue, and concentricity/runout has to get pretty bad (over .003") before it impacts accuracy significantly.
Are SAAMI chambers less accurate? Yes, but good handloading diligence and effective load developent can reduce this issue to where it's quite tolerable. In return, some issues ((like concentricity and neck wall thickness) can be set aside as non-issues.
Greg
Re: Please help me
Good.
Good.
Re: Please help me
I am leaning towards incorrect full length resizing.
Are you using a primer pocket uniforming tool? Are your primers seated below flush?
We have to trust your measurements, and yet, I'm starting to question.....(no offense)
I am leaning towards incorrect full length resizing.
Are you using a primer pocket uniforming tool? Are your primers seated below flush?
We have to trust your measurements, and yet, I'm starting to question.....(no offense)
Re: Please help me
Mallard its not easy or hard to seat them.
Buzz Ill try resetting up my die next time and see how that works. And No I dont have a Primer pocket uniforming tool. They do seat below flush. And I know but I measured 2 times on the same case so and no offence taken.
Mallard its not easy or hard to seat them.
Buzz Ill try resetting up my die next time and see how that works. And No I dont have a Primer pocket uniforming tool. They do seat below flush. And I know but I measured 2 times on the same case so and no offence taken.
Re: Please help me
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: snipenace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok maybe this will help
Before resizing this was a 44.5 grain charge of varget
It has a ejector mark and sticky bolt and the primer backed out to .000 from back of case.
<span style="font-style: italic"><snip></span>
</div></div>
So after firing the primers are flush with the case head or are they actually protruding?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: snipenace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ok maybe this will help
Before resizing this was a 44.5 grain charge of varget
It has a ejector mark and sticky bolt and the primer backed out to .000 from back of case.
<span style="font-style: italic"><snip></span>
</div></div>
So after firing the primers are flush with the case head or are they actually protruding?
