Just curious for those of you who weigh their brass before reloading. What variations in weight do you use? I use one grain and wonder if this is enough or not enough? Seems like unless your really into making some super accurate target rounds, one grain "might" be enough but have thought about going to two grains. Why? Because I find that 40% is in within normal specks, 36% within one grain, 16% within two grains, and 8% is at or above a three grain difference from the normal which I discard. This last batch was 500 rounds of Remington. Also, I think smaller brass would have tighter weights and two grains might be acceptable for shells holding 60 or more grains of powder. Your opinions please……….
- Thread starter barryaclarke
- Start date
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
You should segregate in .1 grain increments. Hopefully out of 500 brass this would give you at least 250 lots to test from.
You should segregate in .1 grain increments. Hopefully out of 500 brass this would give you at least 250 lots to test from.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should segregate in .1 grain increments. Hopefully out of 500 brass this would give you at least 250 lots to test from.</div></div>
That's funny!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You should segregate in .1 grain increments. Hopefully out of 500 brass this would give you at least 250 lots to test from.</div></div>
That's funny!
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
If you really want to spend the time and "do it right" skip weighing the empty brass and sorting there.
Start sorting by overflow water capacity of the fired brass and you'll tend to see a lot more uniformity as well as you'll end up having a slightly different sorting set than if it was just by weight alone.
The fired water capacity gets you the closest approach to actual "usable case capacity" and that has a lot to do with consistency.
I don't bother sorting by weight or water capacity or anyting like that and I get routinely 1/2 MOA groups or better at distances over 600yd.
If you really want to spend the time and "do it right" skip weighing the empty brass and sorting there.
Start sorting by overflow water capacity of the fired brass and you'll tend to see a lot more uniformity as well as you'll end up having a slightly different sorting set than if it was just by weight alone.
The fired water capacity gets you the closest approach to actual "usable case capacity" and that has a lot to do with consistency.
I don't bother sorting by weight or water capacity or anyting like that and I get routinely 1/2 MOA groups or better at distances over 600yd.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
Hi,
When you said to segregate in .1 grain increments, did you mean one (1.0) Seems like .1 would be very small..........
Hi,
When you said to segregate in .1 grain increments, did you mean one (1.0) Seems like .1 would be very small..........
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
I just did a little experiment for my own satisfaction after reading some of the comments regarding this question. First, I am shooting a Sako 22-250 Varmint with a 24 inch barrel, 1:14 twist, Remington brass, Winchester larger rifle primers, 37 grains of Varget pushing a Hornady 50 grain V-Max and sighted with a Nightforce 8x32 BR scope. I loaded 20 rounds of brass that had the "exact" identical weights. Then I took five pieces of brass that weight three grains
more and loaded those identical to the others. At the range shooting at 50 yards, I was able to keep five interlocking four round groups with the identical weighted brass without any trouble. Then I shot one round of the heavier brass at each of the five targets. Each time the bullet pulled high and to the right by about 1/2 and inch. Hmmm, maybe weighing brass might not be such a bad thing after all. It also tells me that it really doesn’t matter what the weight of the brass, but to keep them in the same weight category as one another. You might have to adjust the scope just a tad, but the bullets should end up in the same place. Yes, I might be new, but I learned something interesting and thought I would share...........
I just did a little experiment for my own satisfaction after reading some of the comments regarding this question. First, I am shooting a Sako 22-250 Varmint with a 24 inch barrel, 1:14 twist, Remington brass, Winchester larger rifle primers, 37 grains of Varget pushing a Hornady 50 grain V-Max and sighted with a Nightforce 8x32 BR scope. I loaded 20 rounds of brass that had the "exact" identical weights. Then I took five pieces of brass that weight three grains
more and loaded those identical to the others. At the range shooting at 50 yards, I was able to keep five interlocking four round groups with the identical weighted brass without any trouble. Then I shot one round of the heavier brass at each of the five targets. Each time the bullet pulled high and to the right by about 1/2 and inch. Hmmm, maybe weighing brass might not be such a bad thing after all. It also tells me that it really doesn’t matter what the weight of the brass, but to keep them in the same weight category as one another. You might have to adjust the scope just a tad, but the bullets should end up in the same place. Yes, I might be new, but I learned something interesting and thought I would share...........
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
There you go, empirical evidence that weighing brass makes a difference. We now have a scientific study to back up the theory.
I have shot thousands of rounds of weight segregated brass and could never tell a difference.
Thanks for your help on this.
There you go, empirical evidence that weighing brass makes a difference. We now have a scientific study to back up the theory.
I have shot thousands of rounds of weight segregated brass and could never tell a difference.
Thanks for your help on this.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
barry, Did you mean three grams or grains of difference? My rough math says 500grams/pound 7000gr/pound 7000/500=14gr/gm 14*3=42gr difference in case weight. If you meant grams were you using the same brand/lot# of brass? If you meant grains I wonder if what is the most weight variance tolerated before your results are noticed. I wonder if being in a node opposed to not in node makes more dramatic findings. I have noticed simular results when mixing brands of brass same load.(random unwieghed scavenged) I'm over thinking this there's probally a sticky covering this. I'm off searching.
barry, Did you mean three grams or grains of difference? My rough math says 500grams/pound 7000gr/pound 7000/500=14gr/gm 14*3=42gr difference in case weight. If you meant grams were you using the same brand/lot# of brass? If you meant grains I wonder if what is the most weight variance tolerated before your results are noticed. I wonder if being in a node opposed to not in node makes more dramatic findings. I have noticed simular results when mixing brands of brass same load.(random unwieghed scavenged) I'm over thinking this there's probally a sticky covering this. I'm off searching.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
Yikes, I was soooo thrilled about this finding that I posted "grams" instead of "grains". Thanks for pointing this out and I change my post.
Yikes, I was soooo thrilled about this finding that I posted "grams" instead of "grains". Thanks for pointing this out and I change my post.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
When you say that you never saw a change in segregated brass or could tell the difference, two questions. First, were you using a highly accurate rifle and secondly, were you bench shooting? The reason I ask is my targets showed a 1/2 inch drift to the upper right from the interlocking groups at 50 yards while using the heavier brass. If I took those heavier rounds and shot them at one target, I would have had a cloverleaf design. Thus, those too were shooting very well an would have had an interlocking group. I would suspect at a 100 yards, even if I was shooting brass that was not weighed, I would be within MOA and many would be thrilled with that kind of grouping. I was after the fact of why I could shoot interlocking groups and then I would have a round that I would classify as a flyer hitting 1/2 inch to the upper right. Also, if one was using better brass that has more weight uniformity such as Lapua or LC, maybe the so called flyers would not be so evident. Just my thoughts of what I have found so far with a little target shooting and having fun…………….
When you say that you never saw a change in segregated brass or could tell the difference, two questions. First, were you using a highly accurate rifle and secondly, were you bench shooting? The reason I ask is my targets showed a 1/2 inch drift to the upper right from the interlocking groups at 50 yards while using the heavier brass. If I took those heavier rounds and shot them at one target, I would have had a cloverleaf design. Thus, those too were shooting very well an would have had an interlocking group. I would suspect at a 100 yards, even if I was shooting brass that was not weighed, I would be within MOA and many would be thrilled with that kind of grouping. I was after the fact of why I could shoot interlocking groups and then I would have a round that I would classify as a flyer hitting 1/2 inch to the upper right. Also, if one was using better brass that has more weight uniformity such as Lapua or LC, maybe the so called flyers would not be so evident. Just my thoughts of what I have found so far with a little target shooting and having fun…………….
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BarryAClarke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just did a little experiment for my own satisfaction after reading some of the comments regarding this question. First, I am shooting a Sako 22-250 Varmint with a 24 inch barrel, 1:14 twist, Remington brass, Winchester larger rifle primers, 37 grains of Varget pushing a Hornady 50 grain V-Max and sighted with a Nightforce 8x32 BR scope. I loaded 20 rounds of brass that had the "exact" identical weights. Then I took five pieces of brass that weight three grains
more and loaded those identical to the others. At the range shooting at 50 yards, I was able to keep five interlocking four round groups with the identical weighted brass without any trouble. Then I shot one round of the heavier brass at each of the five targets. Each time the bullet pulled high and to the right by about 1/2 and inch. Hmmm, maybe weighing brass might not be such a bad thing after all. It also tells me that it really doesn’t matter what the weight of the brass, but to keep them in the same weight category as one another. You might have to adjust the scope just a tad, but the bullets should end up in the same place. Yes, I might be new, but I learned something interesting and thought I would share........... </div></div>
This experiment could be confounded by "Precognition." What I mean by that is that the very act of segregating a cartridge- because it is different- may cause you to subconsciously shoot it differently. A better experiment would be to make up lots of cartridges that are segregated by case weight (at least two distinguishable case weights). Then have someone else pull 5 from each segregated lot to serve as the control groups (one for each lot). That person would then randomly assign cartridges from both lots to test groups- containing 1 to 4 rounds from a single lot and the remainder to the other lot. The test groups would be given numeric identifiers- not denoting whether they are control groups or test groups. The shooter who would shoot each group, because s/he does not have information as to what is in each group, would be less likely to be more careful with the group that s/he though "should" shoot best- or less careful with the "poor performer." The results may well be the same, but would be more definitive as they would be coming from a better controlled experiment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BarryAClarke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just did a little experiment for my own satisfaction after reading some of the comments regarding this question. First, I am shooting a Sako 22-250 Varmint with a 24 inch barrel, 1:14 twist, Remington brass, Winchester larger rifle primers, 37 grains of Varget pushing a Hornady 50 grain V-Max and sighted with a Nightforce 8x32 BR scope. I loaded 20 rounds of brass that had the "exact" identical weights. Then I took five pieces of brass that weight three grains
more and loaded those identical to the others. At the range shooting at 50 yards, I was able to keep five interlocking four round groups with the identical weighted brass without any trouble. Then I shot one round of the heavier brass at each of the five targets. Each time the bullet pulled high and to the right by about 1/2 and inch. Hmmm, maybe weighing brass might not be such a bad thing after all. It also tells me that it really doesn’t matter what the weight of the brass, but to keep them in the same weight category as one another. You might have to adjust the scope just a tad, but the bullets should end up in the same place. Yes, I might be new, but I learned something interesting and thought I would share........... </div></div>
This experiment could be confounded by "Precognition." What I mean by that is that the very act of segregating a cartridge- because it is different- may cause you to subconsciously shoot it differently. A better experiment would be to make up lots of cartridges that are segregated by case weight (at least two distinguishable case weights). Then have someone else pull 5 from each segregated lot to serve as the control groups (one for each lot). That person would then randomly assign cartridges from both lots to test groups- containing 1 to 4 rounds from a single lot and the remainder to the other lot. The test groups would be given numeric identifiers- not denoting whether they are control groups or test groups. The shooter who would shoot each group, because s/he does not have information as to what is in each group, would be less likely to be more careful with the group that s/he though "should" shoot best- or less careful with the "poor performer." The results may well be the same, but would be more definitive as they would be coming from a better controlled experiment.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
In my rifle my heavy brass usually groups the same as my light brass. However the heavy brass hits just high enough at 600 yards to move me out of the ten ring
In my rifle my heavy brass usually groups the same as my light brass. However the heavy brass hits just high enough at 600 yards to move me out of the ten ring
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
This is an excellent and a well made point regarding "Precognition" and is one that I had not thought of or even considered. Also, I wonder how these rounds would perform when shot in a different rifle because several have said that there is little or no difference? Could it be the overall weight of the brass such as the difference between a .223 and a .308? Maybe I am going overboard because I still weigh each powder charge off my Dillon 550 as it comes around to the bullet seating……….
This is an excellent and a well made point regarding "Precognition" and is one that I had not thought of or even considered. Also, I wonder how these rounds would perform when shot in a different rifle because several have said that there is little or no difference? Could it be the overall weight of the brass such as the difference between a .223 and a .308? Maybe I am going overboard because I still weigh each powder charge off my Dillon 550 as it comes around to the bullet seating……….
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
if your willing to weigh each charge and not segregating cases by weight ur fooling urself
if your willing to weigh each charge and not segregating cases by weight ur fooling urself
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
Could one of you case weighers tell me how your scale tells you WHERE that extra grain of brass resides in the case EXACTLY?
Case weight has been proven by many to have little to NO correlation to actual case capacity, and case capacity is the important factor. If you can prove where that extra brass resides then you may have a case(no pun intended), but until you can draw a correlation between case capacity variance and weight variance, you are farting in a tin can.
Finding a good node is far more important than weighing cases. When you find a good node then you may find little difference between BRANDS of brass let alone weight within a single lot of one manufacturer.
When I found a good node in my '06 ( and I can assure you it is not your daddie's deer rifle) I can switch from LC69(once fired) to Lapua with less than 1/2 minute difference at 1000yds. Unfired LC69 will be a bit more than 1/2 minute elevation but I drop it 1/2 grain and it is dead on with the Lapua. Groups are the same.
I have fiddled with weighing brass many times in 30 years and owned many fine and accurate rifles. I can say this without reservation. There is no place for weighed brass in a tactical rifle and doubt the usfulness of calculated water capacity sorting in a tactical rifle as well. I quit shooting benchrest competition in '99 and no longer need to try and shoot a 3" group at 1000yds. I am supremely pleased to hit a 12" plate at 1000yds and call it good enough.
Could one of you case weighers tell me how your scale tells you WHERE that extra grain of brass resides in the case EXACTLY?
Case weight has been proven by many to have little to NO correlation to actual case capacity, and case capacity is the important factor. If you can prove where that extra brass resides then you may have a case(no pun intended), but until you can draw a correlation between case capacity variance and weight variance, you are farting in a tin can.
Finding a good node is far more important than weighing cases. When you find a good node then you may find little difference between BRANDS of brass let alone weight within a single lot of one manufacturer.
When I found a good node in my '06 ( and I can assure you it is not your daddie's deer rifle) I can switch from LC69(once fired) to Lapua with less than 1/2 minute difference at 1000yds. Unfired LC69 will be a bit more than 1/2 minute elevation but I drop it 1/2 grain and it is dead on with the Lapua. Groups are the same.
I have fiddled with weighing brass many times in 30 years and owned many fine and accurate rifles. I can say this without reservation. There is no place for weighed brass in a tactical rifle and doubt the usfulness of calculated water capacity sorting in a tactical rifle as well. I quit shooting benchrest competition in '99 and no longer need to try and shoot a 3" group at 1000yds. I am supremely pleased to hit a 12" plate at 1000yds and call it good enough.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
If case weight variance corresponded to case capacity with more consistency, I'd give it a higher priority than I do. It doesn't, and I don't; mainly because the weight variances can be in areas of the case, like the extractor groove, that have no effect on case capacity.
I fire the cases once, then do prep like flash hole reaming, whioh might affect case weight. I then weigh all, and cull the upper- and lowermost weighted ten cases (per 100), because I will need sighters, and the others are the ones I will actually be needing to shoot for score. Somewhere in all of this, case weight probably has some importance, but it's not painfully crucial to me.
Case capacity measured by more precise means has some real importance, but again, it's not huge; and for my purposes, the 'cull the worst ten' approach probably does as good a job as any other method, and it's a whole lot quicker and easier.
Think about competing consequences, and then; K.I.S.S!
Greg
If case weight variance corresponded to case capacity with more consistency, I'd give it a higher priority than I do. It doesn't, and I don't; mainly because the weight variances can be in areas of the case, like the extractor groove, that have no effect on case capacity.
I fire the cases once, then do prep like flash hole reaming, whioh might affect case weight. I then weigh all, and cull the upper- and lowermost weighted ten cases (per 100), because I will need sighters, and the others are the ones I will actually be needing to shoot for score. Somewhere in all of this, case weight probably has some importance, but it's not painfully crucial to me.
Case capacity measured by more precise means has some real importance, but again, it's not huge; and for my purposes, the 'cull the worst ten' approach probably does as good a job as any other method, and it's a whole lot quicker and easier.
Think about competing consequences, and then; K.I.S.S!
Greg
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
I am not anal enough to weight brass, what is next?? weight primers !! pass
if I get consistent 1/2 MOA without weighing, scutanizing, loosing hair and sleep over my loading technique it adds nothing to the accuracy, ergo, not worth doing/worrying about it.
go shoot more and measure less.
cheers.
I am not anal enough to weight brass, what is next?? weight primers !! pass
if I get consistent 1/2 MOA without weighing, scutanizing, loosing hair and sleep over my loading technique it adds nothing to the accuracy, ergo, not worth doing/worrying about it.
go shoot more and measure less.
cheers.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
thats not true , there is a correlation between case capacity in water and weight of a brass cartridge. Cases that have weighted 3-5 grains less ( 50 bmg cases) typically show 3-5 grains less case capacity in water as well. At least from my own experinces.
but, to the op , your using remington brass , just give up. If your going to go anal and weight sort, you should be wasting your time mulling over lapua brass , not some cheap shit alternative.
thats not true , there is a correlation between case capacity in water and weight of a brass cartridge. Cases that have weighted 3-5 grains less ( 50 bmg cases) typically show 3-5 grains less case capacity in water as well. At least from my own experinces.
but, to the op , your using remington brass , just give up. If your going to go anal and weight sort, you should be wasting your time mulling over lapua brass , not some cheap shit alternative.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
Riddle me this....if we fl size brass and all the external measurements are the same where would the extra weight (brass) be. Logic would dictate that it should have to be on the inside of the case would it not. I understand that this is not benchrest shooting however ever member can tell you and brag about their group sizes. Any extra case prep u feel needs done go ahead and do it. If its worth it to you to do it then the time is worth it. I personaly enjoy loading ammo when i cant be at the range. Case sorting and brass prep is a great way to pass a cold dark winter. I start with weight sorted brass and uniform the primer pockets and flashholes. then turn the necks and use bushing dies in stages to achieve low run out. I also use br primers. Then sort loaded ammo and only shoot ammo that reads .002 run out or less in matches. Does any of this amount to a pinch of shit in my score. Alittle? Mabe? who knows. However when im laying behind the rifle I have 100% confidence that my equiptment and ammo are the best they can be. I also know that when a bullet drifts out into the 8 ring i put it there. To each there own
Riddle me this....if we fl size brass and all the external measurements are the same where would the extra weight (brass) be. Logic would dictate that it should have to be on the inside of the case would it not. I understand that this is not benchrest shooting however ever member can tell you and brag about their group sizes. Any extra case prep u feel needs done go ahead and do it. If its worth it to you to do it then the time is worth it. I personaly enjoy loading ammo when i cant be at the range. Case sorting and brass prep is a great way to pass a cold dark winter. I start with weight sorted brass and uniform the primer pockets and flashholes. then turn the necks and use bushing dies in stages to achieve low run out. I also use br primers. Then sort loaded ammo and only shoot ammo that reads .002 run out or less in matches. Does any of this amount to a pinch of shit in my score. Alittle? Mabe? who knows. However when im laying behind the rifle I have 100% confidence that my equiptment and ammo are the best they can be. I also know that when a bullet drifts out into the 8 ring i put it there. To each there own
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
How many variations in case construction can contribute to weight variation yet yield no difference in internal volume?
How about actual extractor rim variations? Groove dimensions? Primer pocket depth, along with flash hole size variations.
Unless you're measuring the actual volume it's really of no value.
I agree with those that shoot "matched sets" getting better results. No doubt they take more care in their shots than they might with their "foulers" that they consider the unmatched brass to be.
How many variations in case construction can contribute to weight variation yet yield no difference in internal volume?
How about actual extractor rim variations? Groove dimensions? Primer pocket depth, along with flash hole size variations.
Unless you're measuring the actual volume it's really of no value.
I agree with those that shoot "matched sets" getting better results. No doubt they take more care in their shots than they might with their "foulers" that they consider the unmatched brass to be.
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
Case dimensions prior to firing are only important in that they feed/fit inside the chamber and support the components so cartridge ignition can be started.
They do <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> constitute true case volume.
True case volume is not achieved until pressure expands the case to conform to the chamber's interior dimensions.
Greg
Case dimensions prior to firing are only important in that they feed/fit inside the chamber and support the components so cartridge ignition can be started.
They do <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> constitute true case volume.
True case volume is not achieved until pressure expands the case to conform to the chamber's interior dimensions.
Greg
Re: Variations in brass weights before reloading
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Riddle me this....if we fl size brass and all the external measurements are the same where would the extra weight (brass) be. Logic would dictate that it should have to be on the inside of the case would it not. I understand that this is not benchrest shooting however ever member can tell you and brag about their group sizes. Any extra case prep u feel needs done go ahead and do it. If its worth it to you to do it then the time is worth it. I personaly enjoy loading ammo when i cant be at the range. Case sorting and brass prep is a great way to pass a cold dark winter. I start with weight sorted brass and uniform the primer pockets and flashholes. then turn the necks and use bushing dies in stages to achieve low run out. I also use br primers. Then sort loaded ammo and only shoot ammo that reads .002 run out or less in matches. Does any of this amount to a pinch of shit in my score. Alittle? Mabe? who knows. However when im laying behind the rifle I have 100% confidence that my equiptment and ammo are the best they can be. I also know that when a bullet drifts out into the 8 ring i put it there. To each there own </div></div>+ 1 on this brother do what makes you feel good.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aloreman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Riddle me this....if we fl size brass and all the external measurements are the same where would the extra weight (brass) be. Logic would dictate that it should have to be on the inside of the case would it not. I understand that this is not benchrest shooting however ever member can tell you and brag about their group sizes. Any extra case prep u feel needs done go ahead and do it. If its worth it to you to do it then the time is worth it. I personaly enjoy loading ammo when i cant be at the range. Case sorting and brass prep is a great way to pass a cold dark winter. I start with weight sorted brass and uniform the primer pockets and flashholes. then turn the necks and use bushing dies in stages to achieve low run out. I also use br primers. Then sort loaded ammo and only shoot ammo that reads .002 run out or less in matches. Does any of this amount to a pinch of shit in my score. Alittle? Mabe? who knows. However when im laying behind the rifle I have 100% confidence that my equiptment and ammo are the best they can be. I also know that when a bullet drifts out into the 8 ring i put it there. To each there own </div></div>+ 1 on this brother do what makes you feel good.
