Forster vs. Lee collet die

[kansas]

I've just started reloading for long range shooting and, on the advice of a friend, bought the Lee collet die however I did something, or somethings wrong and messed the die up. I don't think that the collet was opening up like it was supposed to and I forced a round into the die and it pushed the die cap up enough that it stripped the threads. It appears the cap of the die is aluminum and it really didn't take that much force to strip the threads. I know that Lee will fix or replace the part or die for nothing however I was wondering if there is a better die out there for neck sizing. I was looking at the Forster and it comes with three bushings however it is quite pricey. I'll send the Lee back for repair any way but is the Forster worth the extra money?
Thanks.

 

[kass]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

What case were trying to resize? Did you follow Lee's instructions when setting up the die? I have once had the wrong collect installed in a die body(222 collect in a 223 body) which would cause such an issue as yours . I know that yours is now D.O.A. but have found Lee's collect die very useful,especially in neck tension control and neck run out. Send them the die for replacement, learn how to use it,you will soon like it. The die does have its fault's,the biggest is that the steal collect contacts a aluminum piece that actuates the collect during use. This contact causes the aluminum to gall and eventually disables the die. A high volume reloaded may need to replace their die every few years. But they are cheap and work very well ! Correction contacts another steel piece that galls

 

[zuke]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

That's a safety feature built into the die.
Better to break a cheap part then destroy the die.
That's why they include instruction's in EVERY set of dies they sell.

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

+1 on Lee collet dies. I have 3 and use them in a RCBS Rockchucker. Set-up is critical so you don't over stress them, follow the instructions.

OFG

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Once we put enough pressure on the lever to form the case mouth to the central mandral that's as far as it's gonna go. Continuing to put more pressure on the lever is gonna bend or break something so Lee made that cap to serve as a 'fuse', it blows out rather than damage something more costly.

You have the best neck die available for factory chambers. Get a new cap and read/follow the die directions,

 

[kansas]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

I was sizing new brass (.308 Lapua) and had already sized 50 pieces when it started buckling the brass. I stopped and took the die apart and tried to open the collet like the instructions say however I must not have accomplished it. The instructions call for quite a bit of pressure to "close the collet" so I was leaning on the press handle fairly hard. Thanks for the feedback. I'll send this back and have them fix it and try again.

 

[jagged77]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Sometimes you need to use a bit of lube on the neck to stop the collet from gripping and buckling (especially after annealing). I set mine up to use the full stroke of the press, that way pressure on the case mouth is the same for every case as you bottom out on the ram stroke.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Also...take the collet out and grease the outside of the "fingers" to let it release easier. I use some moly grease on them and have zero problems.

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

in more than ten years,I never managed to destroy a Lee Collet,despite all my efforts and the repeated use on a RCBS Ammomaster_ Please,don't trade your Lee for anything else,because nothing on the market,at my knowing,perform this way_despite his apparent simplicity,the Lee Collet can be really finely tuned_keep it clean and well lubed,and if recessary you can slighly dremel-polish the portion of the claws contacting the brass,reducing the eventuality of excessive gripping and consequent buckling_

 

[Clark]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Yesterday I was converting 308 brass to 260 brass, turning necks and resizing.
I did not want to use a stock Forster FL die, as the neck in the die is a go with a .284" pin gauge. I could hone that out or have Forster hone that out. But I was trying get something done.
The Lee Collet decapping pin was .062" and the Lapua flash hole in Palma brass is .061". A couple minutes of spinning the pin with 150 grit and it was .060".
The folks at Lee may have been reading forums, as the new Collet neck dies need no polishing of the a) collet, b) collar and c) mandrel/ decapping pin.

I did have another problem, shrinkage.
As Seinfeld says, "Like a frightened turtle."
I tried to de burr the inside edge of the collet neck, but that is way up in there and hardened steel.
Then I figured out the solution. Where should I post that?
I will put it somewhere in this thread:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...428#Post3440428

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

My buckling incidents w.Lee Collet are related at my try to obtain 8x57js from well-used 30.06 _ In my case,I think to have forgotten some more accurate brass prep.step before torturing my Lee Collet,therefore it was MY fault only_

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

When I first bought it, I had a few issues with the collet die: once the brass from the inside of the case neck galled to the mandrel and ripped the neck right off the case on the down stroke; and once I had a stove-piped case like in the pictures above. Both times I'm pretty sure it had to do with lubrication. Since those incidents, I now pop open the aluminum cap and put a drop of 3-in-1 oil into the chamber. 3-in-1 is very light and easily flows down the mandrel and into the collet to keep a nice thin coating on all the parts, yet not enough to have to clean the cases after sizing. I put a small drop in every 200 or so cases. I've never had a problem since.

 

[500grains]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Clark, no need to Hide your feelings by being Snippy.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

When I first started useing a Lee collet die I was useing Remmy brass.So when I tried out my first 100 cases of Lapua brass I found that the Lapua brass had a thicker neck than the Remmy did.At first I thought that the collet had got stuck in the other part of the die.Nope not stuck just that the Lapua brass was thicker.The necks came out all messed up around the necks.Some even looked like a no neck case.

So you say your useing Lapua brass.I say to you to take a wooden dowel and use it to spread out the collets fingers.This will allow the Lapua brass to pass through the collet with out messing up the brass.You will have to do this from time to time for the fingers will return to their place after use.Or you can turn your necks to remove some of the necks brass so that they want be so thick.


Your die did what it was made to do so don't blame it.Like many have said poilishing the matting parts with a little grease will help out a lot.If the collet ever gets stuck and not knowing it the closed collet will push the necks down into the shoulder.

I too use a Rockchucker press.To help me from putting to much pressure on the die I made marks on my press.Being right handed I put the marks on the left side of the press.The two parts are at the bottom of the press where one part moves and the other doesn't.So now when the marks line up I stop putting pressure on the press.So fare this has given me some of the best groups to date.Another trick to being able to feel the collets working is to deprime before resizing.This will allow you to really feel the collets doing their job to resize the neck like they should.

 

[zuke]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

I found this online year's ago and saved it.

Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .

If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.

There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
This is not a problem once you learn how to use them.
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.

 

[Clark]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zuke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this online year's ago and saved it.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started ...[blah blah blah] ...the use of this information.
</div></div>
Zeke,
I had to read that thousand words you copy and pasted and understand it all to know that it was not relevant to the OP's problem

<span style="font-style: italic"> <span style="font-weight: bold">Sometimes the case will not not go into the collet as the case mouth hits the lower edge of the collet neck. That can smash brass</span></span>
That is not die use problem.
That is a die design problem or a die repair problem.
Go back and read the OP, read my post, go to the link where I give the answer.

 

[500grains]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Clark, I need a bedtime story. Will you read the OP to me?

 

[wilecoyote]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zuke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I found this online year's ago and saved it.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite.
</div></div> I respectfully disagree about the use of any graphite powder compound,because in my opinion,in this case,graphite can behave as fine abrasive more than as lubricant,w.the added property of finaly embedding herself in the brass_if "aluminized",the thing will be even worst_ moly powder is a mess by himself,as will be a mess touch it/inhale as in the case above__ beside the use instructions from the Lee Collet box that MUST be readed,and the necessary attention to the tolerances between the opening diameter of the claws and the diameter and/or thickness of various brass brands,turned or unturned,etc.,can even happen that,for some factors,the Lee Collet simply fail to adequately resize some necks(with consequent falling inside of the bullet): in this eventuality,I have seen that the insertion of a little metal disc of adequate thickness(more or less 2 mm.) under the screwing top can resolve this problem__ I hope can help_ (about the problems above encountered by someone w.the decap.pin,I'm oriented to decapping first with a univ.decapper,therefore the first sabotage applied to my Lee Collets was cutting away their decap.pins)

 

[zuke]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Like I said,I found it and saved it.
I don't use collet dies yet, and when I do I'll read it all.
As for the "smart"reply's..........

 

[500grains]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[Go back and read the OP, read my post, go to the link where I give the answer. </div></div>

I think you are being short with that fellow.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

There is no "shoulder" inside Lee's collet neck die for case mouths to hang up on nor is there any need to lube any part of the cases with it.

The only possible way to crunch necks in that die is to push a case in when the collet is already jammed fully up. Lee's collet sleeve will hang up if we 'dry fire' the die by pushing the ram hard up without a case in the shell holder and the die's instruction sheet clearly tells us not to do that. Then, if there is a case in the die, as there should be, the case will pull the collet sleeve free on the down stroke, every time.

There is no need to return the die to Lee to free a hung up collet, we can disassemble it and free it ourself quite easily. Remove and clean the collet sleeve, then put a thin layer of grease on the cone (at the top), reassemble the die and push the collet back in, all will be well.

 

[oldfatguy]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Been using Lee collet dies for 223 and 308 for a while now with no problems at all. Have the Rockchucker set up per the post above.

But, I just started annealing and had two of 50 WW 223 cases that went into the die with more then typical force required and came out with a brass ring around the shoulder. About 25 of 50 had "drag marks" on the necks. Next ran 50 annealed Lapua cases thru with no rings or drag marks.

Difference was that the WW were dry and the Lapua still had the Hornady-One-Shot lube on them from going thru the body sizing die.

So is it the lube or the differnt brass?

OFG

 

[jagged77]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oldfatguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Been using Lee collet dies for 223 and 308 for a while now with no problems at all. Have the Rockchucker set up per the post above.

But, I just started annealing and had two of 50 WW 223 cases that went into the die with more then typical force required and came out with a brass ring around the shoulder. About 25 of 50 had "drag marks" on the necks. Next ran 50 annealed Lapua cases thru with no rings or drag marks.

Difference was that the WW were dry and the Lapua still had the Hornady-One-Shot lube on them from going thru the body sizing die.

So is it the lube or the differnt brass?

OFG

</div></div>

Brass after annealing has a different surface finish (feel an unlubed annealed neck and you see what I mean) and tends to stick in the collet die - the solution which you've already alluded to is to use a small amount of lube on the case necks.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

The collet fingers are intended to be open enough to avoid contact with the case until sizing starts. If you're getting drag you may need to spring the fingers a few thousants. And/or you may need to run a lap made of a split dowel wrapped with a bit of medium grit fine sandpaper to de-burr the edges of the interior of the collet.

 

[kansas]

Re: Forster vs. Lee collet die

Well, I sent the die back to Lee yesterday and I'm sure after reading all the information that you all have given that they will replace the cap and send it back to me soon. I appreciate all of the information here and I'm sure it will help me to not screw it up again. Thanks.