Reloading shopping list

[sentry1]

I've been doing a lot of reading on reloading, some of it has stuck, some of it has gone right over my head. I know in a month or so, I'll be all out of the .308s I bought from SW Ammo, so I figured I might as well buy the stuff so I can get some touchie-feelie experience with the gear while I'm reading all these guides.

Why Hornady for everything? It's red, that makes it go faster, right? ...Actually, I read good things about their products and it seemed smart to stick with one brand for the whole kit.

This is the shopping list I've got so far, I'm wondering if I've got everything I need:

<span style="font-weight: bold">Buy Now:</span> (Stuff I absolutely need to get started)
- Digital caliper (got one already)
- Hornady LnL Ammo Press
* I figured I'd go with the AP so I could pump out 5.56 ammo for my AR, and .40 S&W for my pistol, and then use it in slow-mo to do more precise stuff like .308 ammo for the bolt gun. Thoughts?
- LnL .308 shell plate
- Hornady CGND 2 Die Set .308
- Hornady CGND Neck Sizing Die
- Case Trimmer
- Hornady Chamfer/Deburring Tool
*Apparently this will decrimp primer pockets as well. Is this right?
- Hornady LnL Ultrasonic Case Cleaner
- LnL Digital Scale
- Reloading Tray
-Lanolin, 99% isopropyl alcohol and a spray bottle
-Buncha bullets (My regular range only goes to 200 yds, sooo, 150gr should be good?)
-Buncha primers (Recommendations?)
-Powder (Again, recommendations for... ball powder?)

<span style="font-weight: bold">Buy Later:</span>
I have more than enough .223 and .40 S&W for now, so these can wait
- LnL .223 shell plate
- Hornady CGND 2 Die Set .223
- LnL .40 S&W shell plate
- Hornady CGND .40 S&W Dies
- Hornady LnL Headspace Comparator
- Lyman Xpress
*Looks like a better choice than the Hornady horizontal case prep center

 

[cpatbay]

Re: Reloading shopping list

The Hornady LnL AP is a good start. But I have not had much luck getting the powder charge assembly to dispense properly. It's probably a user error kind of thing though.

 

[cpatbay]

Re: Reloading shopping list

To remove crimp from primer pocket, just use the RCBS swagger. Cleaning the primer pocket is not necessary but you could do it with a primer pocket brush.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Hornady probably has primer pocket uniformers and brushes for cleaning the pockets that work with their case prep tool.As for primer crimp swaging,RCBS has a new bench mount crimp swager that works real well(although it is green).

 

[cpatbay]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I meant to say Dillon Super Swager; not the RCBS. But the new RCBS looks pretty good.

 

[cpatbay]

Re: Reloading shopping list

For case lube, I would recommend Dillon Case Lube. Great stuff! Never a stuck case in my die with this lube properly applied.

 

[Mr Joshua]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Loading trays
Pact or RCBS dispenser makes throwing precision loads go faster
Some sort of loading manual is nice to have
Bullet comparator
Shoulder bump gauge
I use Redding comp bullet seater for precision ammo for ease of adjustment
Primer tool (Sinclair best I've ever used)
Primer tray
I use the lee primer pocket cleaner good enough
Powder funnel

 

[farrier]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Imperial sizing die wax!

 

[AtOne]

Re: Reloading shopping list

For the case prep center I would suggest the Lyman Express instead of the Hornady...I know its not red but it is well thought out, catches all the brass shavings and comes with a host of case accessories.

Get a Lyman flash hole uniforming tool and just screw it into the Xpress for deburring flash holes.

You'll also need a powder funnel, You can get a Hornady its red and does work well for both .308 and .223.

Bullet puller, You'll need it eventually.

If you think your serious about reloading get the RCBS charge master combo, you'll thank me later.

I have both the single stage and AP presses and the combo of both work great, maybe a down the road buy.

Giraud ! I know its expensive but its the best damn thing on my reloading bench and if I didn't include it I would feel like I'm missing something.
I have the same trimmer your planning on buying and after a few months of case prepping I broke down and got the Giraud. I could of saved well over $175 by just getting the Giraud in the first place as I bought the RCBS 3 way cutter heads to make it quicker...Nothing is quicker than the Giraud

Good luck and I'm sure once you start you'll be hooked for life.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been doing a lot of reading on reloading, some of it has stuck, some of it has gone right over my head. I know in a month or so, I'll be all out of the .308s I bought from SW Ammo, so I figured I might as well buy the stuff so I can get some touchie-feelie experience with the gear while I'm reading all these guides.

Why Hornady for everything? It's red, that makes it go faster, right? ...Actually, I read good things about their products and it seemed smart to stick with one brand for the whole kit.

This is the shopping list I've got so far, I'm wondering if I've got everything I need:

Digital caliper (got it)
- Hornady LnL Ammo Press
I figured I'd go with the AP so I could pump out 5.56 ammo for my AR, and .40 S&W for my pistol, and then use it in slow-mo to do more precise stuff like .308 ammo for the bolt gun. Thoughts?
- Hornady LnL Headspace Comparator
- LnL .308 shell plate
- LnL .223 shell plate
- .308 shell holder x5
- .223 shell holder x5
- Case Trimmer
- Hornady LnL Ultrasonic Case Cleaner
- LnL Digital Scale
- H CGND 2 Die Set .308
- H CGND 2 Die Set .223
- H LnL Power Case Prep Thingie
- One Shot Case Lube
- One Shot Degreaser
-I need something for removing crimps from primer pockets
-Something else to clean the primer pockets
-What else am I missing? </div></div>

If it were me and it's not, I'd forego the Hornady case prep machine and look to the RCBS TrimMate version for ~$110. The Hornady does trim brass, but it's slow.

Since you're getting a case trimmer, you're spending money on something that's maybe not needed. Plus...the RCBS works in the vertical plane and not the horizontal, so I think that might just be easier on your wrists.

Get the Hornady decrimping bits. I use these on my RCBS TM and they're damn good--much better than the two RCBS decrimp reamers I got along with my unit. I do have the Dillon Super Swage 600, so I'm covered in that regard, but the Hornady bits do a great job and are less than $10 each, for lg/sm primer pockets.

For a trimmer, I've had good luck over 17+ years with the Lyman Universal Chuck and power drill adapter bar. This presupposes that you're not going to sport the cash for a Giraud.

I use Hornady New Dimension dies, at least their seating dies, for 223, 22-250 and 308 (I use Redding bushing neck/FL sizers, along with their body dies,) but if you go with Hornady, buy one of their ~$22 micro seating stems. This can be moved from seating die to seating die and works very well, for not a lot of cash.

I'm old school, so for good sized batches of brass, I use a Dillon CV-500 tumbler. The newer model is the CV-750 and they're built like a tank and can process a good 400-500 pieces of 223 at a time.

Wet cleaning just isn't for me and I don't need my brass to look brand spanking new, to shoot consistently and accurately.

I've used One Shot on a friend's batch of 223 brass and it worked well, but it's not cheap. Redding Imperial wax, or RCBS CaseLube II is what I use for smaller batches of target stuff. I can easily wipe the lube off with either brand and I don't load my media down with lube in the process. Takes a little time, but for 50 and 100 count batches, it's fairly quick. If I need to do large batches and end up tumbling the lube off, I have Dillon's spray lube.

You don't list a scale. I use a RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, with a Dillon beam scale as a backup.

Hornady makes their own version of the CM1500, but I can't speak to that.

Since you're possibly saving money by not going with the Hornady case prep jobbie, you might as well get their COAL tool with a 223 and 308 modified case AND get their 'bullet comparator gages.

Those, along with their headspace gages will pretty much work on anything you want to load in bottleneck cartridges.

Also, I'd recommend the lg/sm Sinclair carbide primer pocket uniformers with power drill adapter holder, for about $50. Most brass can stand to be uniformed so you can seat the primers 'below' flush. This is a safety concern and is really worth the scratch. I was late to the game on this tool and I wish, much like the 3 Hornady gages, that I had gotten them sooner.

You'll need a decent dial caliper, too.

Good luck, Chris

 

[cpatbay]

Re: Reloading shopping list

For trimmer, you can start with Possum Hollow case trimmer. Add a power drill adapter, and it's actually pretty efficient and consistent in trimming cases.

I have the RCBS Trim Mate and it works well to take care of uniforming and cleaning primer pocket, cleaning case mount, and a few other chores.

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Good call on the Lyman Xpress, that's replacing the Hornady Case Prep Trio on my shopping list. For the moment, I'm going to get this: Hornady chamfer and deburring tool which supposedly removes military crimps as well. Is that all I need for removing primer crimps? Is there a better tool? I'd like to find a hand tool first, as the Lyman Xpress isn't a priority just yet.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AtOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll also need a powder funnel, You can get a Hornady its red and does work well for both .308 and .223.
</div></div>

I need a powder funnel for the progressive Ammo Press? I would have thought it would have a funnel built in.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wet cleaning just isn't for me and I don't need my brass to look brand spanking new, to shoot consistently and accurately.

You don't list a scale. I use a RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, with a Dillon beam scale as a backup.
</div></div>
I thought wet cleaning (ultrasonic cleaner) was good for cleaning out the inside of the cases, vs a tumbler just cleaning the outside?

Also, for scale, is this not what I need? LnL Digital Scale

 

[cpatbay]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I would recommend the RCBS digital scale; the Chargemaster.

 

[dogmessiah]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Why are you getting the shell holders? On the progressive you just need the shell plate, and don't need the shell holders.

You say that your 308 is a bolt gun which means you will want a neck die in addition to the full length die. They are cheap, but I personally like the Lee collet die for a neck sizer.

Skip the oneshot lube and make the lube yourself. Just mix lanolin and 99% isopropanol in a 99 cent squirt bottle. It works great and is cheaper. I have never stuck a case with it, and for the price of one can of lube you will have way more than a lifetime supply. Just google lanolin case lube and you will get the exact recipe.

I actually use a cheap pairing knife to remove crimps, believe it or not works great.

You left 40 dies and shellplate off your list.....

Running the hornady progressive in "single stage mode" works great for making really accurate ammo.

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Gotcha, I thought the shell holders were necessary to go with the shell plate.

Thanks for the lanolin recipe, I will try that.

For the .308 precision ammo, should I get micrometer dies? Will they fit into the Lock 'n Load press?

I'll be getting the 40 S&W dies and plate later on, I have a few hundred rounds of steel cased Tulammo laying around, so I can't reload for the pistol until I buy brass casings or ammo.

 

[WyomingShooter]

Re: Reloading shopping list

"-What else am I missing?"

A mentor. A few hours spent with an accomplished hand loader is invaluable. Reading and videos are great but, nothing quite works so well as a good teacher who is ready, willing, and able to help you create quality hand loads. Best of luck! ELN

 

[dogmessiah]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For the .308 precision ammo, should I get micrometer dies? Will they fit into the Lock 'n Load press? </div></div>
To be honest the micrometer dies depend on you. How good of a shot are you, how far will you be shooting, and how much money do you have to blow. For the majority of shooters (myself included), I think they are nice to have, but not necessary. The same can be said about some of the other stuff on your list like the headspace comparator, and case prep center. Do they help make retarded accurate ammo? Sure. Will most people notice the difference? Nope. My advice would be to forgo those two, see if you can produce accurate enough ammo to be satisfied, and if not order them up at that point. This also depends on your pocket book, yours may be considerably bigger than mine so the $150 may not be a second thought to you and worth it.

It is very easy to get so OCD about reloading that you are performing steps that do not affect YOUR groups. My advice is to start out doing the minimum case prep, and then just add a little more at a time until you are satisfied. You would be surprised at how little primer pocket uniforming improves groups. Remember the more time you are loading, the less you are shooting.

One other thing not on your list that I believe is crucial and worth the time is a propane torch to anneal cases.

A tip for lubing, personally the way I lube is by putting all of my cases in a quart-gallon zip lock bag, giving 4-5 sprays (may vary with your spray bottle) of the lanolin solution from my bottle, shake around, and then dump on a cookie tin and start sizing.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good call on the Lyman Xpress, that's replacing the Hornady Case Prep Trio on my shopping list. For the moment, I'm going to get this: Hornady chamfer and deburring tool which supposedly removes military crimps as well. Is that all I need for removing primer crimps? Is there a better tool? I'd like to find a hand tool first, as the Lyman Xpress isn't a priority just yet.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AtOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll also need a powder funnel, You can get a Hornady its red and does work well for both .308 and .223.
</div></div>

I need a powder funnel for the progressive Ammo Press? I would have thought it would have a funnel built in.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wet cleaning just isn't for me and I don't need my brass to look brand spanking new, to shoot consistently and accurately.

You don't list a scale. I use a RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, with a Dillon beam scale as a backup.
</div></div>
I thought wet cleaning (ultrasonic cleaner) was good for cleaning out the inside of the cases, vs a tumbler just cleaning the outside?

Also, for scale, is this not what I need? LnL Digital Scale </div></div>

There are essentially four methods for cleaning fired brass.

First is the sink/dish soap method, where you just submerge your cases in soapy water, rinse then under fresh water, shake them out and then let them air dry, or put them in an oven set on the very lowest temperature...on say...a flat cookie sheet.

Then there's the traditional method of vibrating (tumbling) brass in crushed corn cobb (less abrasive) or crushed walnut shells (more abrasive) and then sifting the media out from the brass. Most of the bigger traditional tumblers will 'probably' do more pieces of brass than either of the wet methods.

Another is ultrasonic, as you're familiar with.

Finally, all the cool kids are running wet tumblers with small stainless steel 'needles' in a rotary tumbler (think gem stone polishers) along with soapy water, or with water and LemiShine.

The two wet methods do a better job of stripping any carbon out of the case insides and primer pockets, whereas corn and walnut have a tougher time at least getting the primer pockets whistle clean.

The issues with wet tumbling are that they're 'wet' for starters, so you're going to have to dry that brass before you load it. They're somewhat messier, either using chemicals to clean the brass, or water that's going to be messy.

The good points about wet cleaning and especially SS cleaning is is that the brass comes out looking showroom new. It's really nice.

On the flip side, clean brass doesn't shoot any better than 'mostly clean' brass in my esperience.

As I said, it's just not for me. With a little metal polish added to my walnut, my brass comes out pretty clean. I clean my primer pockets every third cycle, so I'm not anal about having those whistle clean for every loading.

Plus, I can load it right up out of the tumbler and not have to wait for it to dry.

If I was just starting out and I had the money, I'd choose the SS method, if I were to go wet. You'll probably spend a bit more on the Thumblers rotary tumbler, but you'd probably be better off. Chemicals have to be replaced, whereas the SS needles will last pretty much forever. I believe ultrasonic is faster, than SS tumbling, so that's a bonus in favor of US cleaning.

Be careful of cheap scales, as that's what you'll get and a scale isn't something you really want to pinch pennies on. A trimmer, case cleaner, or deburring tool...sure, but not a scale.

Chris

 

[dogmessiah]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AtOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll also need a powder funnel, You can get a Hornady its red and does work well for both .308 and .223.
</div></div>

I need a powder funnel for the progressive Ammo Press? I would have thought it would have a funnel built in.
[/url] </div></div>
It depends on how you are loading, and accuracy requirements. For your precision loads you may want to check the thrown charges before seating a bullet as sometimes the powder thrower can vary. How much it varies depends on the powder thrower and the powder being used. In general ball powders measure well, and stick powders throw inconsistent charges.

 

[Mr Joshua]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dogmessiah</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For the .308 precision ammo, should I get micrometer dies? Will they fit into the Lock 'n Load press? </div></div>
To be honest the micrometer dies depend on you. How good of a shot are you, how far will you be shooting, and how much money do you have to blow. For the majority of shooters (myself included), I think they are nice to have, but not necessary. </div></div>

Sentry if you only plan on owning one 308 rifle Dog is right, the regular seat die is fine. However, if you are like me and will own more than one 308 rifle not all your seat depths will be the same. The competition seat dies makes adjusting between different seat depths so much simpler and less of a hassle.

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

For now, I only have the Remington 700, but I have plans for assembling a MATEN in the near future, so I'll look into getting the Hornady Match Grade dies later on.

For now, I've updated my Buy Now list to:
I think I've added up most of your combined advice, just want to do one last check to see if I'm missing anything. This should be everything I need to deprime, resize, and reload ammo for a .308 bolt gun.

- Digital caliper (got one already)
- Hornady LnL Ammo Press
- LnL .308 shell plate
- Hornady CGND 2 Die Set .308
- Hornady CGND Neck Sizing Die
- Case Trimmer
- Hornady Chamfer/Deburring Tool
*Apparently this will decrimp primer pockets as well. Is this right?
- Hornady LnL Ultrasonic Case Cleaner
- LnL Digital Scale
*So I'm getting the impression this is a lower end product, will probably change this to the RCBS Chargemaster after some research.
- Reloading Tray
-Lanolin, 99% isopropyl alcohol and a spray bottle
- 175gr SMK bullets
- CCI Large Rifle Primers
- Brass (got a ton of once fired)
-Powder (Again, recommendations for... ball powder?)

 

[Mr Joshua]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I shoot 175 SMK in all my 308s. They shoot well and it seems like someone is always selling "pulls" on here. Primers I use CCI BR2 or Federal match. Powder I use Varget.

 

[NCHillbilly]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I use the same recipe for homemade case lube also.I've found that the best mixture for me is 5 parts alcohol to 1 part lanolin oil.

 

[AtOne]

Re: Reloading shopping list

You'll need a powder funnel if your using Varget as the AP powder dispenser doesn't drop anywhere near consistently enough with stick powders.
Ramshot Tac can work with .223 and .308 but I've yet to find a load that works well enough past 200 in my .308. But man does it meter great in the AP ! I do use it for my .223 loads and have been happy with it.

You really need to add This and one of These or buy the complete Set.
Its important to make sure that your head space is set correct and that your seating your bullets to the Ogive instead of the COAL for consistency.

Get the micrometer seating dies, much quicker in the long run especially when your working up loads.

Also don't forget additional Hornady Bushings for the press beyond what they supply for additional dies.

You will still need the shell holders for the trimmer because they don't come with it.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good call on the Lyman Xpress, that's replacing the Hornady Case Prep Trio on my shopping list. For the moment, I'm going to get this: Hornady chamfer and deburring tool which supposedly removes military crimps as well. Is that all I need for removing primer crimps? Is there a better tool? I'd like to find a hand tool first, as the Lyman Xpress isn't a priority just yet.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AtOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll also need a powder funnel, You can get a Hornady its red and does work well for both .308 and .223.
</div></div>

I need a powder funnel for the progressive Ammo Press? I would have thought it would have a funnel built in.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChrisGarrett</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wet cleaning just isn't for me and I don't need my brass to look brand spanking new, to shoot consistently and accurately.

You don't list a scale. I use a RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, with a Dillon beam scale as a backup.
</div></div>
I thought wet cleaning (ultrasonic cleaner) was good for cleaning out the inside of the cases, vs a tumbler just cleaning the outside?

Also, for scale, is this not what I need? LnL Digital Scale </div></div>

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

What powder has good performance and plays well with the AP dispenser?

 

[Quackaddict]

Re: Reloading shopping list

ANy ball powder will do what you want.

If it were me I would dump that Ultrasonic cleaner, for volume and getting it done its really hard to beat a standard media vibratory cleaner.

Dont be afraid to mix and match from different manufacturers, hornaday makes good stuff but in certain areas RCBS or Redding or Lyman may make a better item for your needs.

If you want a hand priming tool the RCBS universal is really nice.

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

How does one tell ball vs stick powders? On Brownells, only Varget was listed as an extruded powder, the rest didn't have any information.

 

[Helter]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I'm using the Hornady 178 gr HPBT's with very good results. They have a slightly higher BC than the SMK, and are usually about a dollar a box cheaper.

 

[Yakface]

Re: Reloading shopping list

One thing I never thought I would like until I used it is a hand pruning tool. I have one from RCBS that has a universal shell holder, but others make them. For me its easier to use than the one on the press.

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Think REDDING

 

[Mr Joshua]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sentry1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What powder has good performance and plays well with the AP dispenser? </div></div>

The only powder that I've tried in my Harrells measure is Hodgdon H335. Tested 50 charges and it was within +/- .1 grain. Don't know if H335 will perform as well as Varget or RL15 though.

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think REDDING </div></div>

A little elaboration would help that statement.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yakface</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I never thought I would like until I used it is a hand <span style="font-weight: bold">pruning</span> tool. </div></div>

LOL. Auto-correct strikes again!

 

[RTH1800]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I have just found Redding rl products to be higher quality than the others mentioned. Just my opinion. Compare a T7 to Hornady. Compare RCBS dies to Redding. YMMV

 

[slg888]

Re: Reloading shopping list

After you get started reloading you will learn what you need/don't need. I like Redding products, but had to have the RCBS electronic dispenser, and Wilson trimmer.

Good thing about reloading equipment, it sells quick in the classifieds if you don't need it.

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think REDDING </div></div>


Now I have to go research Redding and all their equipment!

 

[stoney15]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Look into stainless steel rather than the ultrasonic??

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I have. Stainless steel tumblers are a sizable investment. For now, I give my really dirty stuff to a coworker who has a SS tumbler. I'll get around to buying one at some point. Baby steps for now.

Still looking for info on a quality ball powder for .223 and .308 loads too. Any advice, guys?

 

[sentry1]

Re: Reloading shopping list

Question: Midway has pretty good coupons available for large purchases, but with the holidays right around the corner, will they be running bigger sales? Should I wait a few months to get a reloading set up?

 

[NCHillbilly]

Re: Reloading shopping list

I've got an RCBS chargemaster,and it works great with stick or ball powder.It throws a very consistent charge with flake powder,but it's a gold plated bitch to clean that stuff out when you are done.