F T/R Competition what kind of scope is used
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Re: what kind of scope is used
Probably 99.9% second focal plane... the target already has rings on it for relatively constant hold-offs, and the reticle in a SFP scope generally covers less of the target - allowing finer holds - than a FFP.
Probably 99.9% second focal plane... the target already has rings on it for relatively constant hold-offs, and the reticle in a SFP scope generally covers less of the target - allowing finer holds - than a FFP.
Re: what kind of scope is used
Targets are all at known distances so no ranging of targets is needed.
Most prefer an uncluttered reticle without hash marks of any sort (check the Nightforce NP-2DD) and have elevation and windage adjustments in MOA rather than Mils.
Targets are all at known distances so no ranging of targets is needed.
Most prefer an uncluttered reticle without hash marks of any sort (check the Nightforce NP-2DD) and have elevation and windage adjustments in MOA rather than Mils.
Re: what kind of scope is used
With the rings on the target, a FFP gives one no advantage over a SFP in F-Class. While I have used a FFP scope in match, a SFP variable or a fixed power scope will always sit atop my F/TR rig. All other rifles will wear a FFP if one is available.
With the rings on the target, a FFP gives one no advantage over a SFP in F-Class. While I have used a FFP scope in match, a SFP variable or a fixed power scope will always sit atop my F/TR rig. All other rifles will wear a FFP if one is available.
Re: what kind of scope is used
it's not a question of "advantage". it's a question of accuracy. Some people claim they can shoot just as accurate with a FFP as another can with a SFP. If thats the case why do 99.9 of F/class shooters use SFP. I would think the answer is they feel they can place a more precise shot down range.
it's not a question of "advantage". it's a question of accuracy. Some people claim they can shoot just as accurate with a FFP as another can with a SFP. If thats the case why do 99.9 of F/class shooters use SFP. I would think the answer is they feel they can place a more precise shot down range.
Re: what kind of scope is used
Most guys want a ton of magnification and a fine reticle. Also, there is no need to spend 2x as much on a scope to get a FFP when a SFP is all you need to shoot KD on stationary targets with rings on them.
I have seen a major F-Class match won with a FFP 5-25x scope. It was the only FFP scope on the line and the shooter put the rounds down range very accurately.
Most guys want a ton of magnification and a fine reticle. Also, there is no need to spend 2x as much on a scope to get a FFP when a SFP is all you need to shoot KD on stationary targets with rings on them.
I have seen a major F-Class match won with a FFP 5-25x scope. It was the only FFP scope on the line and the shooter put the rounds down range very accurately.
Re: what kind of scope is used
Matchking pretty much said it perfectly. Why spend double the money on a FFP scope when it is 100% unnecessary. It isn't about which one is better, it is about which one isn't needed. First Focal Plane scopes weren't created for punching paper at known distances. The only time you are going to see one on the line is when someone is using their tactical rifle in an f-class match and the scope they have mounted is a FFP.
Matchking pretty much said it perfectly. Why spend double the money on a FFP scope when it is 100% unnecessary. It isn't about which one is better, it is about which one isn't needed. First Focal Plane scopes weren't created for punching paper at known distances. The only time you are going to see one on the line is when someone is using their tactical rifle in an f-class match and the scope they have mounted is a FFP.
Re: what kind of scope is used
I am not quite sure what you are getting at, so you might as well just come out with it. I know you read in your sniper comic book that a SFP variable is needed to accurately engage targets. You have obviously absorbed that excellent bit of information.
Since you constantly state that you don't know anything about scopes, why don't you refrain from educating others on the subject.
I am not quite sure what you are getting at, so you might as well just come out with it. I know you read in your sniper comic book that a SFP variable is needed to accurately engage targets. You have obviously absorbed that excellent bit of information.
Since you constantly state that you don't know anything about scopes, why don't you refrain from educating others on the subject.
Re: what kind of scope is used
I think some folks have misunderstood my question. I simply ask which one was used and why. The answer I got was "99.9% use SFP". I accept that answer. If other people can use a FFP and compete thats fine too. I have no problem telling people I don't know nothing about scopes. Thats why I'm here, To ask questions and get answers. I accept the answer I got. Other people say they can shoot as good with a FFP, I accept that also. But the FACT that 99.9% use SFP is not something I read in a comic book, it was something that the first person that replied to this thread told me. So don't be mad at me. The first guy said " the SFP allows for finer holds" the next guy said "SFP allows for a more uncluttered reticle" Their words not mine. I did however take those words to mean that with finer holds and uncluttered reticles you can produce a more precise shot. If thats incorrect, I'm sorry, I don't know much about scopes. Thats just what I took from this conversation.
I think some folks have misunderstood my question. I simply ask which one was used and why. The answer I got was "99.9% use SFP". I accept that answer. If other people can use a FFP and compete thats fine too. I have no problem telling people I don't know nothing about scopes. Thats why I'm here, To ask questions and get answers. I accept the answer I got. Other people say they can shoot as good with a FFP, I accept that also. But the FACT that 99.9% use SFP is not something I read in a comic book, it was something that the first person that replied to this thread told me. So don't be mad at me. The first guy said " the SFP allows for finer holds" the next guy said "SFP allows for a more uncluttered reticle" Their words not mine. I did however take those words to mean that with finer holds and uncluttered reticles you can produce a more precise shot. If thats incorrect, I'm sorry, I don't know much about scopes. Thats just what I took from this conversation.
Re: what kind of scope is used
If you look at the line where there are are collection of F class shooters with dedicated F class rifles you'll see pretty darned close to 100% SFP, and you'll see about 90% are Nightforce 12-42 in either the NSX or BR version. You may see a lot of other stuff when guys come out to shoot F class with a rifle that they use for something else. Then it's often a 25x FFP scope with a ranging reticle.
There are folks using others, and I swore that I was going to get a 10-50 Sightron to upgrade from my NF 8-32BR, but when it came right down to it I couldn't convince myself to change reticles so I got a 12-42 with an NP-2DD.
When the wind is pretty steady and you are shooting for X's (vs guarding against throwing 8's in unstable conditions) trying to hold on a 5" x-ring from 1000 yards you want a thin/small aiming point and all the magnification you can get.
If you look at the line where there are are collection of F class shooters with dedicated F class rifles you'll see pretty darned close to 100% SFP, and you'll see about 90% are Nightforce 12-42 in either the NSX or BR version. You may see a lot of other stuff when guys come out to shoot F class with a rifle that they use for something else. Then it's often a 25x FFP scope with a ranging reticle.
There are folks using others, and I swore that I was going to get a 10-50 Sightron to upgrade from my NF 8-32BR, but when it came right down to it I couldn't convince myself to change reticles so I got a 12-42 with an NP-2DD.
When the wind is pretty steady and you are shooting for X's (vs guarding against throwing 8's in unstable conditions) trying to hold on a 5" x-ring from 1000 yards you want a thin/small aiming point and all the magnification you can get.
Re: what kind of scope is used
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you look at the line where there are are collection of F class shooters with dedicated F class rifles you'll see pretty darned close to 100% SFP, and you'll see about 90% are Nightforce 12-42 in either the NSX or BR version. You may see a lot of other stuff when guys come out to shoot F class with a rifle that they use for something else. Then it's often a 25x FFP scope with a ranging reticle.
There are folks using others, and I swore that I was going to get a 10-50 Sightron to upgrade from my NF 8-32BR, but when it came right down to it I couldn't convince myself to change reticles so I got a 12-42 with an NP-2DD.
When the wind is pretty steady and you are shooting for X's (vs guarding against throwing 8's in unstable conditions) trying to hold on a 5" x-ring from 1000 yards you want a thin/small aiming point and all the magnification you can get. </div></div>
I definitely agree that you, if purely using the scope for F-Class competing, will not need the ranging of a FFP. However, and this is in-part to answer a personal question, which reticle will typically be the finer of the two: FFP or SFP?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you look at the line where there are are collection of F class shooters with dedicated F class rifles you'll see pretty darned close to 100% SFP, and you'll see about 90% are Nightforce 12-42 in either the NSX or BR version. You may see a lot of other stuff when guys come out to shoot F class with a rifle that they use for something else. Then it's often a 25x FFP scope with a ranging reticle.
There are folks using others, and I swore that I was going to get a 10-50 Sightron to upgrade from my NF 8-32BR, but when it came right down to it I couldn't convince myself to change reticles so I got a 12-42 with an NP-2DD.
When the wind is pretty steady and you are shooting for X's (vs guarding against throwing 8's in unstable conditions) trying to hold on a 5" x-ring from 1000 yards you want a thin/small aiming point and all the magnification you can get. </div></div>
I definitely agree that you, if purely using the scope for F-Class competing, will not need the ranging of a FFP. However, and this is in-part to answer a personal question, which reticle will typically be the finer of the two: FFP or SFP?
Re: what kind of scope is used
Can you find a FFP scope in 36X to 50x?
That makes the question theoretical. Dedicated F class rifles run very high magnifications and there are typically no FFP scopes to choose from or to compare. The generalization is that compared on max power the SFP will be finer than the FFP, but that's a generalization and my not be true depending on the scopes compared.
In the 25x range you can look up the reticle subtensions of various manufacturers and come up with your own answer because it will probably vary somewhat.
Can you find a FFP scope in 36X to 50x?
That makes the question theoretical. Dedicated F class rifles run very high magnifications and there are typically no FFP scopes to choose from or to compare. The generalization is that compared on max power the SFP will be finer than the FFP, but that's a generalization and my not be true depending on the scopes compared.
In the 25x range you can look up the reticle subtensions of various manufacturers and come up with your own answer because it will probably vary somewhat.
Re: what kind of scope is used
While there aren't a ton of ultra mag FFP scopes out there, there are several very good ones made. Again, I don't know anyone that would need a FFP scope with a ton of magnification, but there are some out there. There are FFP scopes out there with thin reticles (Gen2 XR, etc.)and there are FFP scopes out there with thicker reticles (Gen2, etc.).
I believe my Gen2 XR reticle is less than .1 MOA thick. With a .5 MOA x-ring, I don't think it is a problem; however, I am sure there are books/magazines that will disagree.
While there aren't a ton of ultra mag FFP scopes out there, there are several very good ones made. Again, I don't know anyone that would need a FFP scope with a ton of magnification, but there are some out there. There are FFP scopes out there with thin reticles (Gen2 XR, etc.)and there are FFP scopes out there with thicker reticles (Gen2, etc.).
I believe my Gen2 XR reticle is less than .1 MOA thick. With a .5 MOA x-ring, I don't think it is a problem; however, I am sure there are books/magazines that will disagree.
Re: what kind of scope is used
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While there aren't a ton of ultra mag FFP scopes out there, there are several very good ones made. Again, I don't know anyone that would need a FFP scope with a ton of magnification, but there are some out there. </div></div>
I can't think of any. Which ones?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe my Gen2 XR reticle is less thatn .1 MOA thick. With a .5 MOA x-ring, I don't think it is a problem; however, I am sure there are books/magazines that will disagree. </div></div>
And if you can shoot with it and you like it then shoot it.
This isn't the first time this has been discussed, in the end use what you want to use. After shooting a few thousand rounds at 1000 yards in both practice and in competition I came to the conclusion that there are conditions under which more magnification is helpful and went from a 36x to a 42x.
I shot the TN State championships this weekend. Of the shooters that I know 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in F-TR are all shooting NF 12-42s, 1st overall in F Open was running a NF 12-42, and First and Second in F-Open state were both running NF 12-42s.
Those are just the folks I know.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While there aren't a ton of ultra mag FFP scopes out there, there are several very good ones made. Again, I don't know anyone that would need a FFP scope with a ton of magnification, but there are some out there. </div></div>
I can't think of any. Which ones?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe my Gen2 XR reticle is less thatn .1 MOA thick. With a .5 MOA x-ring, I don't think it is a problem; however, I am sure there are books/magazines that will disagree. </div></div>
And if you can shoot with it and you like it then shoot it.
This isn't the first time this has been discussed, in the end use what you want to use. After shooting a few thousand rounds at 1000 yards in both practice and in competition I came to the conclusion that there are conditions under which more magnification is helpful and went from a 36x to a 42x.
I shot the TN State championships this weekend. Of the shooters that I know 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in F-TR are all shooting NF 12-42s, 1st overall in F Open was running a NF 12-42, and First and Second in F-Open state were both running NF 12-42s.
Those are just the folks I know.
Re: what kind of scope is used
Damn, I sold my 2.5X10 to get a 3.5-18 and thought I had really steped up and you guys are shooting 12-42's. I guess I'll just stick to hog hunting.
I have located today (by way of this website) a monthly shoot at Camp Robinson Arkansas. I'm only about two hours from there and as a retiree I can stay at the baracks on base for $12.00 a night. I'm going to try and contact these folks and see about sending some lead downrange. I could really benifit by just spending some time with a few guys that can realy explain to me my scope and how to use it.
Damn, I sold my 2.5X10 to get a 3.5-18 and thought I had really steped up and you guys are shooting 12-42's. I guess I'll just stick to hog hunting.
I have located today (by way of this website) a monthly shoot at Camp Robinson Arkansas. I'm only about two hours from there and as a retiree I can stay at the baracks on base for $12.00 a night. I'm going to try and contact these folks and see about sending some lead downrange. I could really benifit by just spending some time with a few guys that can realy explain to me my scope and how to use it.
Re: what kind of scope is used
high power variable and repeatable corrections are way more important than FFP versus SFP.
high power variable and repeatable corrections are way more important than FFP versus SFP.
Re: what kind of scope is used
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While there aren't a ton of ultra mag FFP scopes out there, there are several very good ones made. Again, I don't know anyone that would need a FFP scope with a ton of magnification, but there are some out there. </div></div>
I can't think of any. Which ones?
</div></div>
Here is one
http://www.deon.co.jp/march/March-FX.htm
March is know to be tops in Benchrest competition with their bench scope lineup . Just take a look at the recent results in Benchrest the last few years , but are all SFP
I believe IOR is also making a mega power FFP , but I May be mistaken
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While there aren't a ton of ultra mag FFP scopes out there, there are several very good ones made. Again, I don't know anyone that would need a FFP scope with a ton of magnification, but there are some out there. </div></div>
I can't think of any. Which ones?
</div></div>
Here is one
http://www.deon.co.jp/march/March-FX.htm
March is know to be tops in Benchrest competition with their bench scope lineup . Just take a look at the recent results in Benchrest the last few years , but are all SFP
I believe IOR is also making a mega power FFP , but I May be mistaken
Re: what kind of scope is used
"Probably 99.9% second focal plane... "
I'd venture a guess this is heavily influenced by both the fact SFP scopes are the predominate form available in the US and are typically significantly less expensive.
That said, go to a match and ask those shooting. I'll bet NightForce has a huge following - that is what I see in benchrest when they can make weight.
"Probably 99.9% second focal plane... "
I'd venture a guess this is heavily influenced by both the fact SFP scopes are the predominate form available in the US and are typically significantly less expensive.
That said, go to a match and ask those shooting. I'll bet NightForce has a huge following - that is what I see in benchrest when they can make weight.
Re: what kind of scope is used
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can't think of any. Which ones? </div></div>
Schmidt and Bender, USO, March.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of the shooters that I know 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in F-TR are all shooting NF 12-42s, 1st overall in F Open was running a NF 12-42, and First and Second in F-Open state were both running NF 12-42s.
Those are just the folks I know. </div></div>
That's awesome. I am sure the scope is what earned them the medals. Since I also run a 12-42x NXS, I should be set.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And if you can shoot with it and you like it then shoot it. </div></div>
I don't shoot F-class with it, but I don't think it would be too thick, do you? How much thinner is you reticle?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I can't think of any. Which ones? </div></div>
Schmidt and Bender, USO, March.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of the shooters that I know 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in F-TR are all shooting NF 12-42s, 1st overall in F Open was running a NF 12-42, and First and Second in F-Open state were both running NF 12-42s.
Those are just the folks I know. </div></div>
That's awesome. I am sure the scope is what earned them the medals. Since I also run a 12-42x NXS, I should be set.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And if you can shoot with it and you like it then shoot it. </div></div>
I don't shoot F-class with it, but I don't think it would be too thick, do you? How much thinner is you reticle?
Re: what kind of scope is used
US Optics, really? A $5000 SN-9 that weighs about 5 lbs. No, not ever happening. There are weight limits in this class.
S&B offers one scope at typical S&B prices is 3X a NF and it's heavier than a NF, which is a pig to start with. Thinking I'm not seeing those.
March in general has a lot to like, except for the prices. If money was no object I'd probably get a March, but it would be the 5-50 or the 8-80 (I am sure it can see the future) in SFP there too. It would shave a pound off of my NF that I could add to the barrel.
The original question was in F class what scopes to use. The answer is actually a little more than the OP asked but I tried to add some information that he may need if he's getting started. The value of FFP scopes is in using the reticles for holdoffs/holdovers at variable powers, and ranging. None of those is useful to an F Class shooter shooting on at known distances on a target where each ring is 1 MOA larger than the last. Those features do however add cost which none of us really needs.
As to reticles, I did say :
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The generalization is that compared on max power the SFP will be finer than the FFP, but that's a generalization and my not be true depending on the scopes compared.</div></div>
I guess you missed that part. I've seen people do well with USOs and a few other 25x scopes at the local level, but when you start shooting to win at the state/regional/national level pretty much everyone is running NF with a few Sightrons and a couple of March's in the mix. But all are high magnification SFP scopes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That's awesome. I am sure the scope is what earned them the medals. Since I also run a 12-42x NXS, I should be set.
</div></div>
That's being a smartass and anyone reading this knows it. People who are competing for wins decided by a point here and a point there will use what can help them to get that point, and obviously top F class shooters I've seen at least at Camp Perry and the regional/state championships here use high magnification SFP scopes. If you're still curious I'll let you know what I see at Raton. But I'm not expecting it to be much different there either, would you?
I will say to the original poster, you can come out and shoot with anything with knobs that you can turn. At 1000 yards if you are shooting a 308 with factory ammo with 175 SMKs in a 26" or shorter barrel plan to need about 36MOA of elevation from a 100 yard zero. If you load your own and/or you have a longer faster barrel you may need less. My 185s need 30 to 31 lately depending on DA, 178 Hornadys need 31 to 32, but it's been hot here lately.
US Optics, really? A $5000 SN-9 that weighs about 5 lbs. No, not ever happening. There are weight limits in this class.
S&B offers one scope at typical S&B prices is 3X a NF and it's heavier than a NF, which is a pig to start with. Thinking I'm not seeing those.
March in general has a lot to like, except for the prices. If money was no object I'd probably get a March, but it would be the 5-50 or the 8-80 (I am sure it can see the future) in SFP there too. It would shave a pound off of my NF that I could add to the barrel.
The original question was in F class what scopes to use. The answer is actually a little more than the OP asked but I tried to add some information that he may need if he's getting started. The value of FFP scopes is in using the reticles for holdoffs/holdovers at variable powers, and ranging. None of those is useful to an F Class shooter shooting on at known distances on a target where each ring is 1 MOA larger than the last. Those features do however add cost which none of us really needs.
As to reticles, I did say :
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The generalization is that compared on max power the SFP will be finer than the FFP, but that's a generalization and my not be true depending on the scopes compared.</div></div>
I guess you missed that part. I've seen people do well with USOs and a few other 25x scopes at the local level, but when you start shooting to win at the state/regional/national level pretty much everyone is running NF with a few Sightrons and a couple of March's in the mix. But all are high magnification SFP scopes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That's awesome. I am sure the scope is what earned them the medals. Since I also run a 12-42x NXS, I should be set.
</div></div>
That's being a smartass and anyone reading this knows it. People who are competing for wins decided by a point here and a point there will use what can help them to get that point, and obviously top F class shooters I've seen at least at Camp Perry and the regional/state championships here use high magnification SFP scopes. If you're still curious I'll let you know what I see at Raton. But I'm not expecting it to be much different there either, would you?
I will say to the original poster, you can come out and shoot with anything with knobs that you can turn. At 1000 yards if you are shooting a 308 with factory ammo with 175 SMKs in a 26" or shorter barrel plan to need about 36MOA of elevation from a 100 yard zero. If you load your own and/or you have a longer faster barrel you may need less. My 185s need 30 to 31 lately depending on DA, 178 Hornadys need 31 to 32, but it's been hot here lately.
Re: what kind of scope is used
XTR: Question for you. I have a Vortex PST 6-24X-50 FFP on my FTR rig now...it's a solid scope and I do like it. I originally bought it because I didn't know whether I wanted to do the tactical thing or FTR stuff. I now know I much prefer FTR, and groundhog'n too lol.
I find myself never taking the scope off of 24x and am now noticing just how thick the reticle is.
With that being said, on your NF, do you ever find yourself using less than 42x at 1,000yds? Bad mirage? Ever wish you had more power?
XTR: Question for you. I have a Vortex PST 6-24X-50 FFP on my FTR rig now...it's a solid scope and I do like it. I originally bought it because I didn't know whether I wanted to do the tactical thing or FTR stuff. I now know I much prefer FTR, and groundhog'n too lol.
I find myself never taking the scope off of 24x and am now noticing just how thick the reticle is.
With that being said, on your NF, do you ever find yourself using less than 42x at 1,000yds? Bad mirage? Ever wish you had more power?
Re: what kind of scope is used
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...., but when you start shooting to win at the state/regional/national level pretty much everyone is running NF with a few Sightrons and a couple of March's in the mix. But all are high magnification SFP scopes. </div></div>
I have competed in matches on those levels. I have even won using a fixed power Leupold Mark 4. I know there is a lot of "monkey see, monkey do" in F-class (like any other sport), but not everyone uses a variable power NF, March of Sightron. In fact, one of the top F/TR shooters in the country was using a fixed power Leupold, though I am not sure if he still is or not.
Again, I didn't tell the op that a FFP variable was the best option for F-class, but the notion that they can't be used effectively is childish. He is/was trying to back up what he read about SFP scopes being more precise. I simply stated that there are FFP reticles that are NOT too thick. Do you disagree?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...., but when you start shooting to win at the state/regional/national level pretty much everyone is running NF with a few Sightrons and a couple of March's in the mix. But all are high magnification SFP scopes. </div></div>
I have competed in matches on those levels. I have even won using a fixed power Leupold Mark 4. I know there is a lot of "monkey see, monkey do" in F-class (like any other sport), but not everyone uses a variable power NF, March of Sightron. In fact, one of the top F/TR shooters in the country was using a fixed power Leupold, though I am not sure if he still is or not.
Again, I didn't tell the op that a FFP variable was the best option for F-class, but the notion that they can't be used effectively is childish. He is/was trying to back up what he read about SFP scopes being more precise. I simply stated that there are FFP reticles that are NOT too thick. Do you disagree?
Re: what kind of scope is used
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J--ROD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">on your NF, do you ever find yourself using less than 42x at 1,000yds? Bad mirage? Ever wish you had more power?
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The short answer is, yes. Most folks start to turn the magnification down as the mirage builds. On an average day, on an average range, I'll start at 42x in the morning, when it's cool out, and get down to ~32x in the late afternoon when the mirage is at it's worst. This is hugely dependent on range conditions though, the worst mirage I've ever seen was in Ireland a few years back (their range is carved out of an old peat bog). By 11:00, I had the scope down to 18-20x... but that is very unusual.
Would more magnification than 42x be nice? Sure, but amongst the vast majority of scopes on the line (principally Nightforce, then March), once you go over ~42-45x, the scope picture becomes *much* darker. I looked through a March and Nightforce side by side a few years back, and once the magnification got above ~45x, the image was not as usable for me. Thus the reason (especially for ~$1000 less) that most guys out there are running the Nightforce.
As regards running a fixed power scope, although some may make them work, the lack of flexibility to adapt to conditions will probably not outweigh the potentially better optical clarity that comes with a fixed power vs a variable (assuming the same quality glass used in both).
It's not just 'fashion' that has guys gravitating to the Nightforce, and other high-end, variable power, (SFP) glass.
(and yes, I won some of my first F-T/R matches with an 8.5-24x Mk-4 tactical)
Just my .02
Darrell
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J--ROD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">on your NF, do you ever find yourself using less than 42x at 1,000yds? Bad mirage? Ever wish you had more power?
</div></div>
The short answer is, yes. Most folks start to turn the magnification down as the mirage builds. On an average day, on an average range, I'll start at 42x in the morning, when it's cool out, and get down to ~32x in the late afternoon when the mirage is at it's worst. This is hugely dependent on range conditions though, the worst mirage I've ever seen was in Ireland a few years back (their range is carved out of an old peat bog). By 11:00, I had the scope down to 18-20x... but that is very unusual.
Would more magnification than 42x be nice? Sure, but amongst the vast majority of scopes on the line (principally Nightforce, then March), once you go over ~42-45x, the scope picture becomes *much* darker. I looked through a March and Nightforce side by side a few years back, and once the magnification got above ~45x, the image was not as usable for me. Thus the reason (especially for ~$1000 less) that most guys out there are running the Nightforce.
As regards running a fixed power scope, although some may make them work, the lack of flexibility to adapt to conditions will probably not outweigh the potentially better optical clarity that comes with a fixed power vs a variable (assuming the same quality glass used in both).
It's not just 'fashion' that has guys gravitating to the Nightforce, and other high-end, variable power, (SFP) glass.
(and yes, I won some of my first F-T/R matches with an 8.5-24x Mk-4 tactical)
Just my .02
Darrell
Re: what kind of scope is used
Stan Pate, John W. and I all all use Leupolds. Stan and I use fixed 35 Comps for most time and then switch out to either MK4 8-25s or LR 8-25s if mirage is real real bad. I know John uses 8-25 for mst things. Not sure if he uses fixed 35x comp as much as we do.
I find the fixed 35 sees as well as my NXS 12-42 did.
Best seeing scope I have ever used was a MarchX 8-80 but cost is over three times a Leupold Comp35x and I just can not afford them, when I used three rifles
Stan Pate, John W. and I all all use Leupolds. Stan and I use fixed 35 Comps for most time and then switch out to either MK4 8-25s or LR 8-25s if mirage is real real bad. I know John uses 8-25 for mst things. Not sure if he uses fixed 35x comp as much as we do.
I find the fixed 35 sees as well as my NXS 12-42 did.
Best seeing scope I have ever used was a MarchX 8-80 but cost is over three times a Leupold Comp35x and I just can not afford them, when I used three rifles
Re: what kind of scope is used
One other issue to consider in F-Class using a scope with very high mag (50X or greater) is the field of view. As stated by others here, I often find myself at 42X in the first match (NF 12-42x56 NP-2DD), but have to dial down later as the mirage builds. In addition to lessening mirage distortion, this also can be an advantage in terms of the wider field of view. It's easier (for me, at least) to use the mirage for wind estimation on slightly lower mag. Further, being able to see not only your target, but part or all of the targets on either side, as well as your firing lane number board, can help prevent crossfires. Losing points for any reason is bad enough, but cross-firing is even harder to take. The smaller field of view when using very high mag puts even more of a burden on the shooter to ensure they do not accidentally crossfire. Even if I had it, I really cannot imagine using much more than 42X for these reasons. YMMV.
One other issue to consider in F-Class using a scope with very high mag (50X or greater) is the field of view. As stated by others here, I often find myself at 42X in the first match (NF 12-42x56 NP-2DD), but have to dial down later as the mirage builds. In addition to lessening mirage distortion, this also can be an advantage in terms of the wider field of view. It's easier (for me, at least) to use the mirage for wind estimation on slightly lower mag. Further, being able to see not only your target, but part or all of the targets on either side, as well as your firing lane number board, can help prevent crossfires. Losing points for any reason is bad enough, but cross-firing is even harder to take. The smaller field of view when using very high mag puts even more of a burden on the shooter to ensure they do not accidentally crossfire. Even if I had it, I really cannot imagine using much more than 42X for these reasons. YMMV.
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