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Rifle Scopes Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

ilmonster

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Minuteman
Aug 5, 2012
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New guy here. Been reading a lot about optics the last few weeks on SH. One thing I've been wondering is does it make sense to have a scope with a mil-dot reticle (3.6" per dot at 100 yds.), but with MOA windage and elevation knobs (1" at 100 yds)? I saw this on a Leupold Mark AR 4-12x40 scope I was looking at.

Also, if I am only shooting paper and steel at known ranges, is a FFP scope necessary over a SFP?

I'm looking at getting my first bolt action rifle, and am still trying to learn the ins and outs of optics. Leaning toward a Rem. 700P LTR in .223 (same as my AR) for shooting out to 300 yds. (longest at my local range). Thanks!
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

As I am just getting a bolt rifle for fun, I am looking at scopes around $500, and was looking at a Leupold Mark AR 4-12. It can be had with a mil-dot reticle, but looks to only come with MOA knobs, but it does have adj. parallax. It is also a SFP scope. Wondering if something like that would be good enough for paper and steel at 100, 200, 250 yds.?
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

If all you are doing is known distance at whatever pace you feel like shooting a mil or moa reticle won't make a difference. You may want to look into bemch rest style scopes instead of tactical scopes. Just dial your come ups for the distance you are shooting. If you are dialing for everything FFP is not useful and the reticle may be to thin or to thick depending on the scope and magnification.

If you are ever planning to shoot unknown distance, learning to range with your reticle, shooting in competition or hunting where you will not have time to dial your adjustments, then get matching reticle/knobs in a tactical style scope.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Thanks for info 1time. That kind of describes where I am. Not competing in the near future, shooting at my local range (only one locally) where I know what the distances are. Sounds like a SFP scope with a mil-dot reticle and MOA turrets might work fine for now and not break the bank. If I were to get serious (i.e. competition), I could justify spending bigger dollars for appropriate glass. Thanks for all the resposes, do appreciate it!
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ilmonster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for info 1time. That kind of describes where I am. Not competing in the near future, shooting at my local range (only one locally) where I know what the distances are. Sounds like a SFP scope with a mil-dot reticle and MOA turrets might work fine for now and not break the bank. If I were to get serious (i.e. competition), I could justify spending bigger dollar for appropriate glass. Thanks for all the resposes, do appreciate it! </div></div>

This is posted on the opening page of Snipers hide.

Front Focal Plane vs Second Focal Plane

http://www.snipershide.com/2012/07/front-focal-plane-vs-second-focal-plane/

I like SFP. I have a Sightron III 10X MIL/MOA. I got to thinking I got to trade it. And get a MIL/MIL. But it works fine for me. I use shooters ballistic program on my phone when I range my target or enter information it gives the solution in moa and mils. So I don't have a problem dialing elevation in MOA and holding wind in mils.

What ever you get you got to learn how to use it. Before you send it, you got to know where it's going.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Why start out behind the 8 ball? There are matching knob/reticle scopes out there in most every price range now.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Get a scope that has mil/mil or min/min, not mixed. Easier that way.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Any suggesstions on mil-mil or moa-moa scopes in the $500 or less range with 3-10x or 4-12x ranges (give or take)? Your collective thoughts have been very helpful.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Been using mismatch MOA turrets with Mil reticle for a good 5 years and for me it's 2nd nature with no thinking.

Right now I have 3 scopes with MOA/MOA, and it is nicer, but for me it's only slightly faster, and if you do play with mil/moa enough, you do not need matching knob and reticle.

Just remember your scope adjustment in MOA, and to range, just remember a quick conversion, no calculation necessary.

1 Mil = 3 full MOA + 2 clicks
1/2 mil = 2 MOA - 1 click
1/4 mil = 1 MOA
1/8th or 1/10th mil = 2 clicks

Remember when you are ranging it's not precise anyways, so the above table will get you close enough.

Say if you miss my 1.6 mil.. all you have to do is remember the base conversion of the 4 values above.
1 mil + .5 mil + .1 mil
or in other words...
(3 MOA + 2 clicks) + (2 more MOA - 1 click) + (2 clicks).

That is you go 3 and a half MOA, then add 2 more MOA, then minus 1 click, then add 2 clicks.

What does this give you? It gives you 5.75 MOA worth of adjustments, and if you do the calculator conversion you will find the true value to be 5.76 MOA, so you can see dam close!
wink.gif


Do this enough and you will find out you do not need matching reticles!
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

I also like to play with the math behind reticle subtension and turret applications for both rangefinding and downrange zeroing in SFP and FFP reticled optics. Give me Mil/MOA, BDC/IPHY, plex/IPHY anyday...but it's definitely not as easy as a matched system.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sscoyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I also like to play with the math behind reticle subtension and turret applications for both rangefinding and downrange zeroing in SFP and FFP reticled optics. Give me Mil/MOA, BDC/IPHY, plex/IPHY anyday...but it's definitely not as easy as a matched system. </div></div>

except I am not using math, I just remember 4 values and run with it.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Guys, where were all you when I had the same questions?
My post, the only guy that was of any real use was CoryT from gunsiteacademy......
I don't know how to link the post, but you blokes seem to have made it plain as day. the other blokes on my post did nothing but try and make me look like a fuckwit.

Anyway, everybody likes to tell me I'm complicating shit, but that's been the job of the scope manufacturers by the looks of it.

So if you find my post somehow and have some more positive input like Cory did, then feel free to help me understand it even more.

Someone might like to help me a bit more with how to read IPHY on the mildot master though, there's a pretty neat converter trick out there for the scale but maybe some of you could play with it and get back to me and we can all benifit.

But thiss just dawned upon me, because I know the metric system and mil/mil is nice, why can't I just convert inches to centimeters and with ffp make a note of clicks to move 1 mil@ a 100yardstick and then just dial for metric and forget the IPHY once I know how many clicks dials up a centimeter or 1/10mil at 100 yards.

Then use 1.047 as your factor if you want to go back to moa.

Wouldn't that then be just simple multiplication out to your target range if you knew your bullet drop in mils?
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallabycycles</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys, where were all you when I had the same questions?
My post, the only guy that was of any real use was CoryT from precision......
I don't know how to link the post, but you blokes seem to have made it plain as day. the other blokes on my post did nothing but try and make me look like a fuckwit.

Anyway, everybody likes to tell me I'm complicating shit, but that's been the job of the scope manufacturers by the looks of it.

So if you find my post somehow and have some more positive input like Cory did, then feel free to help me understand it even more.

Someone might like to help me a bit more with how to read IPHY on the mildot master though, there's a pretty neat converter trick out there for the scale but maybe some of you could play with it and get back to me and we can all benifit.

But thiss just dawned upon me, because I know the metric system and mil/mil is nice, why can't I just convert inches to centimeters and with ffp make a note of clicks to move 1 mil@ a 100yardstick and then just dial for metric and forget the IPHY once I know how many clicks dials up a centimeter or 1/10mil at 100 yards.

Then use 1.047 as your factor if you want to go back to moa.

Wouldn't that then be just simple multiplication out to your target range if you knew your bullet drop in mils? </div></div>

What are you trying to do? Range or figure out your drop table?
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Mate, I wasnt too worried about ranging, I wanted to set up a dope card for my loads and poked it all into one of them programs, until I realized several rounds later that even though I could use the mildot, I had to deal with IPHY turrets and was way out "clicking".

Anyway I have 2 scopes, one is sfp with mildot in 1/4IPHY and the other is ffp with 1/8IPHY but they screwed my order and sent a rangefinder reticle(crossbow)and I had to bite it.

Each are in the $3to5hun range and were reviewed really well up to 50BMG spec and in my budget.

I was given a chrony and am running 178 amax in my .308 and am waiting on my douglas barrel for the 300WM which I will most likely run 204 speer's or the 208 amax.

I have streloc ballistics calculator in my old useless android phone which needs info I haven't obtained yet because I wanted to wrap my head around as much of the old school basics as I could first, until I met the ""turret gremlin""

catch you blokes tomorrow.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

I see what you are saying, most online free ballistic calculators are MOA (and not IPHY), there are IPHY calculators available if you are willing to pay. I never had the problem as all my MOA scopes are true MOA.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

I've run mildot with moa turrets and would never do it again. With mil/mil or moa/moa systems readily available in a variety of price ranges it wouldn't be a smart decision not to go with one.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Eric, feel free to help me out here for the benifit of others if you want, and I'm still interested to see if you have any ideas for me.

I reckon its stupid that they are allowed to make them that way, but in some respects it promotes adaptability for a shooter.
It definately promotes learning the nuts and bolts before you learn to rely on the gadgets.

Anyway, I'm gonna range off that IPHY turret and see if I can come up with some 1/10 numbers that someone else can play with and maybe my abstract thoughts can be of some benifit to everyone else in the same situation.

I'm definately convinced that there are uses for both focal planes, but I will never buy a second focal plane again, unless the base power is 10.
The only trouble with that though is that in low light, if you haven't divided your objective lens diameter by your pupil size and come up with your match, you may have issues.
10by40 would be 4 and if you have a 6mm pupil you get issues with that optic ring blurring.
So I appreciated all the advice in other posts TELLING me to go with a fixed 10* scope and I did some research; if you have mouse eyes go for it.

And you definately want to find one that has a diopter adjustment even after you find the correct eye relief and power for yourself.

Red/green, not so important, but I think to have a side focus dial is easier on the shooter, and also if its variable, to look for one that has the increments marked on the rearward side of the adjusting ring and definately with a raised knob of some sort. Depending what you are doing, It'd be bad to pop your mellon up too high above your scope!

Anyway, the other thing I found is that if you buy a cheaper scope (they like to use the words SWAT, SNIPER, and TACTICAL to describe them so as to rope you in) with say "6 turns or what they say is 60moa to sell it", that if you run your elevation anything further than 1 rotation off center travel to zero it, that you compromize the travel of your windage adjustment on cheaper scopes considerably and it tends to swing the reticle through a taller arc rather than laterally across the tube. (look down the objective lens and play with the dials and you can see what I mean)
I also checked it out by just for grins, puttting a 20moa rail on the action and seeing if the .308 would even come close to zero @ 200 yards---WRONG---so if you want to go with the cheap scope they say is a 1000yard tactical you might make some 600yard shots with it just fine.
Put it on a 20moa rail and yes, you might make some 600 to 1200 yarders with it and you'd better be ready to lose sight of your target between 0 and 500 yards because you'll be aiming 3 feet low and goodluck.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Found a Vortex 5-15 HS scope on MidwayUSA (looks like a Midway exclusive) that is Mil-Mil for around $500 that looks interesting for my uses, although I'm wondering if that variable range of 5-15x might be too long for shooting only out to 300 yards.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Hey man, let me take a look at that.
not to be a smartass and dump my problem scope on you, it just doesn't do what I want, but maybe after all these posts and you only wanting to shoot 300 yards I can make you a fantastic deal on what I have.

I've also got a bushnell hunter series 10by40 I don't use either.

what are you shooting?
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Hey ilmonster,
regarding:

Found a Vortex 5-15 HS scope on MidwayUSA (looks like a Midway exclusive) that is Mil-Mil for around $500 that looks interesting for my uses, although I'm wondering if that variable range of 5-15x might be too long for shooting only out to 300 yards.

check out the description of the scope and note where it says:

quote"The reticle is also calibrated for range estimation when at 15 power magnification."

If I'm not mistaken, this sounds like it's in that same GREY AREA scope category and it might be a second focal plane reticle.

This meand that, great, you have a mildot reticle but it does not change size as the power is adjusted. This seems to mean that your true mil is only in the reticle at 15 power.

Help me out guys, Let's take a look at this and see what's up.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 41 MT FITTER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eric, feel free to help me out here for the benifit of others if you want, and I'm still interested to see if you have any ideas for me.

I reckon its stupid that they are allowed to make them that way, but in some respects it promotes adaptability for a shooter.
It definately promotes learning the nuts and bolts before you learn to rely on the gadgets.

Anyway, I'm gonna range off that IPHY turret and see if I can come up with some 1/10 numbers that someone else can play with and maybe my abstract thoughts can be of some benifit to everyone else in the same situation.

I'm definately convinced that there are uses for both focal planes, but I will never buy a second focal plane again, unless the base power is 10.
The only trouble with that though is that in low light, if you haven't divided your objective lens diameter by your pupil size and come up with your match, you may have issues.
10by40 would be 4 and if you have a 6mm pupil you get issues with that optic ring blurring.
So I appreciated all the advice in other posts TELLING me to go with a fixed 10* scope and I did some research; if you have mouse eyes go for it.

And you definately want to find one that has a diopter adjustment even after you find the correct eye relief and power for yourself.

Red/green, not so important, but I think to have a side focus dial is easier on the shooter, and also if its variable, to look for one that has the increments marked on the rearward side of the adjusting ring and definately with a raised knob of some sort. Depending what you are doing, It'd be bad to pop your mellon up too high above your scope!

Anyway, the other thing I found is that if you buy a cheaper scope (they like to use the words SWAT, SNIPER, and TACTICAL to describe them so as to rope you in) with say "6 turns or what they say is 60moa to sell it", that if you run your elevation anything further than 1 rotation off center travel to zero it, that you compromize the travel of your windage adjustment on cheaper scopes considerably and it tends to swing the reticle through a taller arc rather than laterally across the tube. (look down the objective lens and play with the dials and you can see what I mean)
I also checked it out by just for grins, puttting a 20moa rail on the action and seeing if the .308 would even come close to zero @ 200 yards---WRONG---so if you want to go with the cheap scope they say is a 1000yard tactical you might make some 600yard shots with it just fine.
Put it on a 20moa rail and yes, you might make some 600 to 1200 yarders with it and you'd better be ready to lose sight of your target between 0 and 500 yards because you'll be aiming 3 feet low and goodluck. </div></div>

All I am saying is you do not need matching reticles, that it is easy to adapt, however, you should always choose matching if given the choice.

You have a lot of stuff in your post, talking about FFP and SFP, lowlight and what not... here all I am referring to is matching reticle.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

No you don't need matching reticle and knobs. Hell we made due for years with mixed systems but people made due with lots of things that worked until something that made life easier came along.

Having matching systems just takes one more thing to think about out of the equation and makes concentrating on getting the shot off easier on the shooter. I see people messing up under stress with FFP matched knob/reticle systems at matches so do you think people with mixed systems trying to think of conversions in their head make less mistakes?

Sure if they train on the system they will make it easier for them and become competent with the system but as I said with the amount of scopes available to the shooters today with matching systems down into the $200 range there is no reason not to make your life easier and get a matching system.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

Thanks for the info. everyone! I'll keep poking around for a mil-mil or moa-moa scope in an appropriate variable range that fits my needs in the $500 range.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

ilmonster, my first scope was purchased when I had a budget of $500. It was a Leupold Mark II 4-12. It was a good scope, but as I got better at shooting and used it more, and had the opportunity to use Mil/Mil optics, I realized how unnecessarily frustratingly stupid MOA/Mil scopes were. I just recently sold that scope, and for only $250 more, bought a Vortex Viper PST 4-16 Mil/Mil FFP with illuminated reticle lightly used from the Optics for Sale section here. It is an awesome scope for the money, and a much better scope, in my opinion, than the Leupold Mk. II Tactical. I no longer own any "mixed" scopes, nor will I ever again. It is like trying to cook with an American cookbook using metric measuring cups, or build furniture from European plans with a tape measure marked in fractions of inches. JUST PLAIN STUPID. It blows my mind that the majority of optics made still seem to be Mil/MOA.

My advice, save a little longer, and buy something that has all the features you want. There are a few cheap Mil/Mil scopes in your price range, but they don't have parallax adjustment. I highly recommend the Vortex Viper PST 4-16 Mil/Mil, if you can find one used. SS also makes some fixed power scopes that you can get new or lightly used for a little over your price range.

Good luck!
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

I'm figuring out the stuff I have now thanks to a lot of comments and info from you blokes.

Yep, matching stuff is good and since I got roped in by the fancy wording without looking into optics first, I've figured it out.

I have started to write the conversions into a program that will work on a TI-83 calculator simply because I have one. Whats cool about that is you can actually graph it if you want to get that geeky. But it will convert everything into turret adjustments for me when I'm done and all I have to do is write it on a note card and stick it to the stock.

Anyway, with all my problems solved, all there is left to do is reload, chrono, and shoot.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

The Midway exclusive 5-15 gets pretty good reviews. Very minor complaints in reference to hard to turn power ring.

Burris has also dipped their toes into the mil/mil arena.

Another really decent alternative is the Falcon Menace 4-14x with several very good reticle designs.
They don't get a whole lot of love here, but they are FFP, mil/mil and available with an illuminated reticle (not required for your application).

I have one, it has performed well and is a very good introduction to ffp mil/mil. They have a new, limited lifetime warranty. Buy through SWFA and you have no worries.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

To the OP, look at the midway USA Vortex HS 5-15 scope. Its in your price range, mil dot with mil knobs, has good glass, 15x on the top end, side parallax, zero stop, and the famous Vortex warranty. Its one of the best deals out there for low-mid price glass right now IMO.
 
Re: Mixing mil-dot and MOA reticles and knobs

I bought a Nightforce going back 12-13 years ago.
3.5-15X50 with Mil ret and Moa knobs. For me, the best thing I found for converting, was the Mil Dot Master. Just look at the Mil collum on the far right then follow across to the Moa side to get your Moa come-up. Very easy.