Range Report OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

[wallabycycles]

I went from open sight to scope!

So I figure out the basics and nail a 500 yard target BY AIMING ABOUT 65 INCHES ABOVE THE DAMN THING. AFTER I SAID FUCK IT WITH READING UP ON EVERYBODY'S LONG WINDED CONFUSING INSTRUCTIONS ON LONG RANGE INCREMENTAL DOPING.

so:
- 1 milradian = .0573 degree
- 1 mil @ 100 yards = 3.6 inches = 36 inches @ 1000 yards
- 1 click = 1/4 inch @ 100 yards = between 14 and 15 clicks @ 100 yards to equal 1 mil

seems all simple right!
well all these wankers have to write long winded explainations of this but never say any more about maybe 300, 600, or whatever hundred or thousand.
Its all at 100.

I know you have to know the ballistics of your round to then figure it out on that invisible parabola in your head, or that great little thing someone kindly gave me called a mildot master. and you have to take atmospheric and altitude conditions into consideration as well.

But everything begins at sea level @ 59 degrees F and from my open sight training 25 years ago with the .308, that shit worked if you knew where to go from there. Holsworthy Range (Australia) in 1988 were the best ever shots I made!
So if my math is ok, and I get to working it out that 1 mil at 1000 is 36 inches, then I'd run out of ckicks on the scope and would be shooting about 2 feet low to hit at 100 if i put on a 20moa bridge.

Someone simplify the differential equasion, or whatever factor it takes to get "doped" outside of 100 yards for me please.

Oh, and lets not be bragging about what scope we use because it could be your dick with a magnifying glass on the end for all I care. I just want someone who aint a big technical talk pull their chain good old boy, or woman, who knows and don't mind sharing knowledge to help me out.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Me again,

This is from the Millett Gunsight Academy!
Quote:
Let's say you fire a shot at a target 300 yards away, and it impacts 15 inches low.

= 5 MOAs15 (inches)3 (hundred yards)

see this is all great, but LETS SAY I did drop a round 15 inches low, don't you think my target might just fuck off and run away!

I'd rather not have to adjust to make another shot, and if I was shooting competition, even if I had the round hit first at 6 inches low it would count, but outside of 6, I wasted a round that I should have hnown better about in the first place.

 

[CoryT]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

There are a couple of ways to deal with getting a dope sheet. You can get reasonably close starting values by using a ballistic program, such as JBM online, then fine tune those values on the range.

In class, I start students with a 100 yard zero, then shoot at 200 yards. Measure the actual drop, dial the proper correction, then shoot to confirm. Now, at 300, dial 200 plus the same amount you came up to get to 200. You added 2 MOA to get to 200? Dial 4 MOA and shoot at 300. Fine tune as needed. do the same for 400, 500 and 600. For 700, add the value from 500 to 600 plus about 30%. At 900, add 50% more. This will put you +/- 1 MOA with calibers running < 3100fps. If you are shoooting something fast, just don't add the extra % after 600 and you'll be fine.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Corey,
thanks, but when you talk about dialing more moa as you reach out, this gets confusing when you relate to mil and inches. Because if one assumes u have 3.6 at 100 and 1 moa being the inch, at 200 you are dialing 2moa and 300 dialing 4moa ok, then 1 mil at 300 is 10.8 inches, so you dialed 4 moa lets say to stay on bull. but lets say bull is always base of target to compensate drop then this means that 10.9 inches at 300 yards is 4moa right!

lets also assume 4 clicks = 1moa and/or 1inch@100 yards, and that when you dial 1 moa on the scope, its 1 at 100 and 1 at 1000, right? so 4 clicks = 1inch = 1moa @100 yards is the same as 4 clicks will be not 1 inch at 1000, but 1 what?, 10 inches?

on a 1/8 click dial, the number of clicks would double and all else remains the same right.

And I haven't chrono'd, but I bought one theyre cool, but when i do i can surely grab a table from my phone app, its called "strelock" and once you plug in all the stuff it asks for youre good to go.
It'll tell you how many clicks to roll, but I reckon in the bush, electronics are one more thing taking my mind off what I'm shooting and so is the piece of paper its all written down on scrumpling up in one of my pockets.

 

[CoryT]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

That's exactly why we use mils and MOA, so the linear measurement does not enter into it.

1 MOA is 1 MOA, period. How much 1 MOA moves the bullet strike is dependent on the range. This is why we like to have a reticle marked the same as the knobs, Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA. You simply locate the strike of the bullet, use the reticle to measure to center, then dial it on and you are done. If you are .6 mil low, dial up point .6, it makes no differance what the range or target size may be, .6 mil is .6 mil.

If you don't have a graduated reticle in either the spotter or the rifle scope, you are stuck taking a linear measurement, then converting it to the correct angular value. 1 Mil = 3.6" at 100 yards, so, to convert 10" at 450 yards into mils

3.6 * (450 / 100) = 16.2" = 1 Mil @ 450 yards

10 / 16.2 = .6 mil correction

for MOA

1.047 * (450 / 100) = 4.7" = 1 MOA @450 yards

10 / 4.7 = 2.1 MOA correction

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Cory,
this is what a poorman like me uses for a scope. the reason I got so far out of wack on this is maybe too much thinking and not enough practice, but its all i can do to go over the the neighbours back 40 with what I can afford to reload after my divorce and bankruptcy, and actually shoot again.

I'm on a .308 700remington sps with a choate stock and a clamp on break. they shipped me the rangefinder reticle but my other scope lower powered was mildot. I mounted this on a 20moa rail and made sure i could still zero@100 and it did.

http://www.osprey-optics.com/scopes/tactical-10-40x50-mil-dot-rifle-scope.html

that scope was reviewed well and right now I can afford that.

but I might like I say be thinking too much. If it's at 1"@100 on the turret, then it's at 1moa or mil already right?

It would be nice to afford
http://www.eurooptic.com/zeiss-hensoldt-zf-scope-330196-9904-000.aspx that scope


Yea, that part about linear measure i am ok with, and finding the mil or moa size in inches at a given range is what you showed me,

my point of confusion is just that if you know how many inches your round will drop at a given distance and you'va already ranged the target point of impact, then if you know you are zeroed say at 100 yards,

do you figure out the size of a mil or moa at that range, divide it into the bullet drop, calculate the number of clocks----assuming that with a 1/8"@100 dial and that being say (sum number of clocks per moa@100yds)----and then dial the number of inches on the scope to coincide with the number of moa or mil your round will drop.

thats the main issue i am having.
i use a mildot reticle and have the ranging @10 pwr down

just can't wrap my skull around the dial.

Its easy when you just holdover and use the dots once you know how many mil or moa your round will drop at the distance,

but it would be nice to just leave the hairs center bull and excecute the action.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Does your scope have mismatched turrets? Is the reticle in mils but the turrets are in moa? If so, save yourself the headache and sell it. You can buy an swfa scope with matching turrets for under 500.

You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Input the information on your load into jbm ballistics and print out the chart. It will tell you what correction is needed in mils, moa, or whatever you need. You then dial for distance and shoot.

If you are just trying to extrapolate the values, its easy. 1 mil = 3.6" @ 100yds. 3.6 multiplied by 2 for 200yds, 3 for 300 yards, etc. 3.6 x 10 for 1000 yards = 36 inches. Mive the decimal point for 1/10th mil clicks.

 

[jeffersonv]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Ya you are over thinking it.

You don't need to know what the measurement of your miss is or use some invisible parabola in your head.

Just use your reticule in your scope to measure from the miss impact to the center of your reticule and dial to correct for your next shot. You will need matching reticule and turrets to do this and then the hash marks on your reticule will match up with the clicks on your turrets.

Like CoreT says above.

Once you get your velocity you can use JBM or some other drop calculator and make a drop chart with the atmospheric conditions included.

 

[CoryT]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Stop looking at bullet drop in inches. If you are using software, just output the drop in MOA or Mils, dial that on and shoot. Once the settings are confirmed on a KD range, they get written down on your dope sheet. Now you just range, look at the number on the sheet, dial up and shoot.

If for some reason the only starting point you have is bullet drop in inches, then sure, do the math to convert mils or MOA into inches at that range, divide the drop by that number and you have a comeup. Confirm it and put it on the dope sheet, then proceed to thrown the paper with inches of drop in the trash, it's no longer needed.

 

[clos9009]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

This is what I did, after buying a SS 10HD. choreographed my loads. typed in the information to JBM. went out and as closely as I could put the edge of the barrel at the corresponding yardages 200,300,400,500,600. Dialed up what the JBM calculator said to and shot to confirm. I had to make corrections at all distances due to my buddies chronograph reading higher FPS then what my actual FPS were. How do I know this, well after that I bought a Oehler 35P and choreographed my loads. I typed that info into JMB and what it printed out was my corrected data from the week before. So now I am in the process of switching all of my scopes over the MIL/MIL way much eaiser then anything else.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

All this I know. my turrets read 1/8"@100yards per click and 1/4"@100yards per click. And the reticle is a mildot.

I guess a mildot space is only a mil or moa at a certain magnification and range. so thats why I'm not worried about them until I can know my drop and turret adjustments at certain ranges and I can pick a good magnification for each range and figure out how many dots to hold over.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but if you dial 10 power or 40 power at whatever range, is a mildot in the reticle representing a mil at that range, not that I can see!

I guess with what everyone is saying, Its going to be kentucky windage to figure some of this out.

Cory makes the most sense. I think that if 1mil or moa is 3.6"@100 and your turret moves 1/4" per click at 100, then at 100, to move 1 moa you must dial about 15 clicks if you are 3.6 inches low.

so in turn if you are at 200 and 7 inches low you will dial double, and then 300 tripple and so on.

going from 100 to 500, lets say your round drops 65 inches, then 1moa@500 is 18" so you have dropped 3.6moa and would be dialing 54 clicks or 13(1.3 turns) up.

Tell me if I am wrong, I can put my ammo data into the program no worries, but if I don't have that, say I do go out and do like corey said first which is entirely possible, then I can measure my own bullet drop and use what I just wrote above to figure out a dope card with the number of clicks at 25 yard intervals.
then to get any further out all I have to do is a linear regression with the numbers I have(college algebra) and wait until I can get to a 1000 yard range to confirm the data.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Yeah, I see whats going on now. I know the software is out there and I love to use it, but Corey I've been a mechanic for 25 years and have been in many a situation where the book aint there and no computers around. You're right, once I figure out what to dial with my platform and round then all I need is a sticky note on the inside of my lens cover. That little strelock program is good, but it needs BC and atmospheric conditions, however it will offer to print out a notecard for you.
I wish I could give you a day or two of my time on your range and then you could simply kick this stuff into my head the way they did 25 yrs ago on open sights until we got it right.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

think I've got my head round it a lot more than i did 2 days ago. love to come out there and get it in person.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallabycycles</div><div class="ubbcode-body">think I've got my head round it a lot more than i did 2 days ago. love to come out there and get it in person. </div></div>

You answered my question. Not only do your turrets not match your reticle, they don't even match each other. For the kind of shooting that goes on here at the distances you are describing that's just not acceptable in today's world of modern scopes and equipment.

If you are on a budget a Bushnell Elite 3200 fixed 10x scope with 1/10th mil turrets is like 250. If you get some money for the scope you have, move up to an Swfa SS 10x power with matching reticle and turrets.

It will make what you want to do WAY FRIGGIN' easier. You are going to spend more time with scrap paper and a calculator trying to convert all those values at different distances than you are actually shooting. This is why we all use matched turrets.

If I miss at 225, 389, 500, 1209 or any yardage in between by a half mil, I dial or hold a half mil correction and make a hit. No calculator and 5 minutes of math and frustration involved. If you get into competition I promise you won't have the time for that so just make the switch now. Get started on the right foot.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Mate, on the subject of wasting time, I think I wasted yours by forgetting to mention that I have 2 scopes on 2 different rifles. one is 1/8 and the other is 1/4.
I guess if you can find me one that has both I'm sure they made it that way for a reason! Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad having 1/8 on windage and 1/4 on elevation! Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you usually encounter more effect from gravity than you do from wind while you're still supersonic!
But if all this is true, why the heck would a "mil dot" reticle not always have turrets in mils? oh, someone else already answered that! for ranging.

And just for the sake of it, I don't know of anyone who didn't learn anything thoroughly by not wasting scrap paper and pencils or burning up a calculator keypad.

I am on a budget, if you took a look at the post before you gave your advice you'd have seen the scope I have, and it's actually reviewed well.

Yeah I'll maybe go make some 1000 yard shots with a scope instead of open sights like I was trained to do 25 years ago, but I'm going to master the tools with the cheaper stuff while thats all I can afford.

In my trade, you can have all the fancy tools and the biggest toolbox on the block, but that don't make you the best mechanic!

You give me 10,000 bucks worth of top line firearm and I aint going to shoot it any better than $1000 bucks worth if I haven't learned the basics.

So keep on using all the modern gadgets and forget about the paper and pencils and I will take what some of the other guys have told me here and apply it to my skillset so that I don't have to rely on gadgets.

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

Cory,
thanks for your help mate.
I know now that the graduations in the reticle may not match the turrets in cheaper scopes so It will be your advice I take and I have figured out mil and moa and it's a hell of a lot easier to compensate in terms of moa or mil. I took a look at a scope my buddy gave me that is supposed to be a rangefinder reticle or crossbow style and I think it is graduated the same as the turrets.
I am going to bench mount the mildot reticle scope and range it to 100 yards with a marked moa target and turn the turrets to see whether they match.

By the way, your credentials speak for themselves!

 

[LawnMM]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

I'm going to preface the following with this: I'm not trying to get on your case, put you down, belittle your equipment, or give you a hard time. I am trying to give you advice that will allow you to have the most fun, and most rewarding shooting experience, in the most efficient and expedient manner.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wallabycycles</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mate, on the subject of wasting time, I think I wasted yours by forgetting to mention that I have 2 scopes on 2 different rifles. one is 1/8 and the other is 1/4.
I guess if you can find me one that has both I'm sure they made it that way for a reason!</div></div>

I didn't think it made any sense myself but that seemed to be what you were saying.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Perhaps it wouldn't be so bad having 1/8 on windage and 1/4 on elevation! Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you usually encounter more effect from gravity than you do from wind while you're still supersonic!</div></div>

The bullet's path is changed more by gravity than wind, so yes. However, gravity is constant, wind is anything but.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But if all this is true, why the heck would a "mil dot" reticle not always have turrets in mils? oh, someone else already answered that! for ranging. </div></div>

That's because the powers that be used to use two systems of angular measurement for different purposes. One for ranging, one for elevation and windage corrections. Then somebody realized it was much easier to match the turrets to the reticle. That way any correction you need to make can be measured with the reticle and dialed with the turrets without any conversion necessary.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And just for the sake of it, I don't know of anyone who didn't learn anything thoroughly by not wasting scrap paper and pencils or burning up a calculator keypad.</div></div>

What do you learn from that besides how to make mathematical conversions that are time intensive and unnecessary? If you can do basic multiplication, you can convert mils to moa and vice versa. I'm not sure its something you really need to practice with every shot?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am on a budget, if you took a look at the post before you gave your advice you'd have seen the scope I have, and it's actually reviewed well.</div></div>

I looked at it. I didn't see the reviews. I haven't heard of the scope. No offense there, just not familiar with the company or the model. My issue isn't with the quality or lack thereof of the scope and its components, my issue is the turrets don't match the reticle and it interjects additional conversion math that isn't necessary or efficient.

If you want to spend your time practicing multiplication and division for conversions, that's your choice, more power to you. I don't have any issue with that. However, I do think your time would be better spent on shooting, reading the wind, making corrections, etc. when you are just getting into this...and it sounds like you are. Maybe I'm wrong there too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yeah I'll maybe go make some 1000 yard shots with a scope instead of open sights like I was trained to do 25 years ago, but I'm going to master the tools with the cheaper stuff while thats all I can afford.</div></div>

You are the one who posted the Hendsoldt link. I gave you two suggestions at price points of about 250 and 450 that will do the job very well without making you cough up 3500 bucks.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In my trade, you can have all the fancy tools and the biggest toolbox on the block, but that don't make you the best mechanic! You give me 10,000 bucks worth of top line firearm and I aint going to shoot it any better than $1000 bucks worth if I haven't learned the basics. </div></div>

Again, I never advocated you spending thousands of dollars on a scope. Just to reinforce the point...here's the scope I was talking about.

Bushnell Elite 3200 Link

Hell, its even on sale for 200 with free shipping. To be honest, I don't think Mils to MOA conversions are considered 'the basics'. Most people will suggest you pick one system of angular measurement and stick with it. Some people have one system on one rifle, and a second on another. That's all fine and well, but those people have the money for multiple rifles, and I promise you each rifle has matching turrets and reticles.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
So keep on using all the modern gadgets and forget about the paper and pencils and I will take what some of the other guys have told me here and apply it to my skillset so that I don't have to rely on gadgets. </div></div>

What gadget do you need to rely on if you follow the advice I'm giving you? It doesn't require a ballistic calculator, or even a regular calculator. In fact by using a scope with matching turrets and reticle, you need LESS gadgets because you won't need scrap paper, a pencil, and if you're bad at math like me...a calculator.

You've told me to go back and read your posts as if I have misunderstood you. I think you have misunderstood me.

Rich

 

[wallabycycles]

Re: OK guys, time for "SCOPE DOPE FOR DUMMIES 101"

OK, nothing like a little research and good advice.

My scopes:
Cheap, but not the cheapest
first focal plane mildot reticle IPHY turret
So,
regardless, Called them and the manufacturer cannot guarantee or state that the reticle and the turret are coincidal, so I know that at whatever magnification, the reticle dimensions remain the same on it, although a fixed 10 power seems to be the go-to for most everybody.

I'm stuck with IPHY for now and at least I can run through the yardstick method mentioned to me and find out where the turrets actually are.

I now know why the little mildot master didnt work for me and there's a cool post on how to convert it to read IPHY on here too.

Supposedly a mildot reticle is true mil/moa spacing standard in the single plane at any range, so it seems stupid that any manufacturer would combine the 2 systems, guess its like John Deere making tractors with both metric and standard bolts!

I even found a post where a guy who went through Quantico said he wondered why his shots were off.

I think it has crept into the entry level optics market as a gymic and when they add the word "tactical" it makes it even worse. It fooled me!

I have an old redfield 4-10by 40 laying round somewhere that might have been made before all these new cheap ones came out. So if anyone knows of any companies that make turret dial conversions for them old things let me know.

for right now, it's off to the range with some more rounds, and thanks for all the help.

Cory T from gunsiteacademy, your receptionist has my number, I'd like to thank you in person.