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Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

Lone Spartan

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Sep 5, 2012
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48
Fort Worth TX
Hi, I'm new to this community. And I'm intrested in getting into long (1000 yard) range tactical competitions at a local levle. I find my self drawn to M1A rifles and am contemplating buying a scoped out M21, assuming I do my part, it's basicaly a consistent 1 MOA Rifle.

My questions is considering the quality of equipment out there today and seeming endless pool of .5 MOA bolt guns am I making a good decision or am I under gunning myself from the beginning
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

What target are you using. It the 1000 yard target is 10 inches in diameter, a 1 MOA rifle is good enough, if you have a 6 inch target it isn't.

Problem is there are a lot of 1 MOA rifles out there but few 1 MOA shooters.

You see itty bitty groups posted all the time but you don't see that many cleaned F-Class or NRA 1000 yard targets.

As to the M1A. I shot next to the AMU team one year in 29 Palms. During the service rifle match, the 4 man team shot a 799/8000 with M14s and iron sights. It can be done.

The X-10 ring on a NRA high power 1000 yard target is. That's 2 MOA, get where you can shoot cleans at 1000 every time with a M1A I bet you can get the AMU to give you a job.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

No reason youre not going to be able to shoot to 1000 with that. None at all. It is a bit easier to load for a bolt gun, especially if you will be planning to use long heavy bullets. Neck sizing may get dicey in the autoloader too.

Just going to depend what you want and how much you want to spend. The nice thing about bolt rifles is that it is cheaper to get them shooting REALLY well. Autos/gassers just plain cost more, but will still get the job done no problem.

As far as a 1 moa rifle, that will get the job done too. Not too long ago a 1 minute rifle was very impressive lol, and people have been shooting to 1k for a good while.

Personally if I were in your shoes I would get ahold of a 308/260/243 bolt action rifle (if you do not have one of course). That said, if your heart is set on the m1a then get one of those!
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Problem is there are a lot of 1 MOA rifles out there but few 1 MOA shooters.</div></div>

I agree with that. From my own experience once you put a timer on someone or put them in an unorthodox position people go from .5 MOA to 2 + MOA pretty quickly.

Heck my goal is to just be a 2 MOA shooter under stress and reasonable positions, I still have a ways to go!
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

Thanks for the post,
Of course your completely correct, I come from long history of Handgun competition and it's all about the shooter and his abilities, after a point the gun are all equally and pretty advanced operator tools.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

It's easy to get swept up in the newer better faster crowd, I think The tactile bolt guns offen look life cookie cutter versions and I was looking to go a more traditional route.you can spend 1500 and get a Remington R5 and another 1500 and slap a nightforce scope and well... Here's your cookie...
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

My only recommendation is if you haven't before, try out a M1A scoped before you sink your money into it. I never could get fully accustomed to the higher stock weld that it comes with and prefer to keep them iron sight only. For scoped rifles I prefer the bolt or AR class, but I of course really appreciate and admire the older style equipment. Your preferences may differ, they're just not for me.

As for the accuracy, 1 MOA is MORE than enough to hang, but the real trick is wind and range/trajectory calling within 1 MOA, especially with a .308. You have already alluded to that fact that it's the Indian, not the bow.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lone Spartan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hi, I'm new to this community. And I'm intrested in getting into long (1000 yard) range tactical competitions at a local levle. I find my self drawn to M1A rifles and am contemplating buying a scoped out M21, assuming I do my part, it's basicaly a consistent 1 MOA Rifle.

My questions is considering the quality of equipment out there today and seeming endless pool of .5 MOA bolt guns am I making a good decision or am I under gunning myself from the beginning</div></div>

About the only logical use for an M1A today at LR is in NRA LR Service Rifle division. This rifle, when match conditioned, would get the job done; plus, get you to a higher plateau of good shooting than you'd get from a scoped rifle division.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

I have a buddy that was hesitant to go to his first match. He didn't think his 3/4 MOA rifle would be competitive. He believed that would be the weakest link and that guys with AIs and GAPs would give have his factory Remmy running for the hills.

I told him to go shoot anyway and he'd be surprised, so he did. The guy that won the match didn't shoot 2 MOA over the course of fire.

His 3/4 MOA rifle wasn't the weakest link.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

I've shot several with my AR and it was fine @ 600 but beyond that I'd really like to have a bolt rifle in a wildcat caliber. Something 6.5MM would be preferable as the bullets have high BC and the recoil of most I've shot up to a 6.5-284 wasn't bad at all.

BTW never seen an M1A at any F class or long range learner match here, ever.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

Lone Spartan,

Let me throw something else out here for you to consider; That M1A may be a 1 MOA shooter right now, but it won't stay that way for long. M1A's or M14s require TONS of maintenance to keep shooting well. They're very finicky, can go through lots of spare parts, and it's getting very (VERY) difficult to fond good smiths to work on them these days. The USAMU has abandoned them altogether for these reasons, and have gone to the M110/AR10 platform for their 1,000 yard Service Rifle shooting. All of the advantages that make the AR15 such an outstanding competitive rifle transfer quite nicely to the AR10. Easy to build, require very little maintainence to keep shooting, etc.. Plus, there's plenty of good quality competitive triggers and aftermarket stuff out there for them. The M1A's are a dying breed in competitive circles, and there's some very good reasons for this. I love 'em, I've shot them in competition for many years, even carried an M21 while I was in the service, and still have a full-on NM M1A in the safe. But I wouldn't trade my ARs for one now at any price if I actually had to compete with it again. It'd be like buying an original '57 Chevy to try to compete in NASCAR today; it may be a classic, but it won't have a prayer against the more modern offerings. Think this one over a bit.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

It's going to be hard to beat USAMU people who shoot for a living. The wind calls, the shooter skill, and the weapon accuracy are all going to play in.

If your rifle is shooting 1MOA (if it can hold that through the course of fire), it certainly will do its part.

My experience with M1A's has been that when they warm up, the groups open up, so holding 1MOA would be a pretty awesome M1A.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

1 MOA is usally enough but the M1A needs so much work and maintenance and special care it is not worth it, get an AR in 308, 6.5 Creedmoor or 260 rem and you'll be way better off.
hope this helps.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

They eat bedding jobs up pretty fast, and for the expense of the model that you are looking at getting....I'd get a good AR10 or an 800 dollar remington 700 and a ton of ammo.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That M1A may be a 1 MOA shooter right now, but it won't stay that way for long. M1A's or M14s require TONS of maintenance to keep shooting well. They're very finicky, can go through lots of spare parts, and it's getting very (VERY) difficult to fond good smiths to work on them these days.</div></div>

Ummm, how many M1As have you had, and for how long.

I got my M1A in 1977, shot it for a couple years and the National guard (Gene Barnet, Barnet Barrels, was the armor) converted it to ta Super Match.

Been shooting it since, still shoot it. Yeap I've shot out a couple barrels and stretched out some slings, BUT THAT'S ALL

A M1A hold up pretty dern well.

Besides mine I had several (about 30 to be exact NM M14s on my property book when I was running the Alaska National Guard Marksmanship Program. They hold up.

Unless one starts screwing with one they'll last a long time before any maintainse is required.

Couple years ago the NRA had an article about sniper rifles in Vietnam. Turns out the M-21 (M14) spent less time in the maintance shops then the Marine's M-40s.

Give you an ideal, the serial number on my rifle is 0068xx. Like I said it still shoots and still shoots quite well.

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Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

Kraig,I found the comment to be kinda ill informed.
Mine is a vintage 1986 unit and still maintained its accuracy because I knew how to maintain it, and what NOT to do to it.
The only reason mine was rebedded in 2003 wass to put it into a new stock, using modern bedding techniques and materials which are even better than decades ago.

Sooooo much old inaccurate knowledge floating around here.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

In answer to your question (and that's fair enough), more than a few, including those I own personally and those issued to me with 101st MTU and 5th Army AMU over a four year period. I went through the 101st's sniper school (conducted by 5th AMU at that time) in early 1979, and my issue arms room weapon from that point on <span style="text-decoration: underline">was</span> an M21. Started shooting competitively in 1977, and about half my points towards my Distinguished badge were earned with the M14s.

I've also been shooting Camp Perry long enough to have seen the change over from when M14s/M1As ruled the roost, to the point we find ourselves in today where they are a real oddity on the line. If you shot Perry prior to around '94-'95, I'm sure you'll recall that behind the 600 on Viale, it used to look like a truck park; rows of 18 wheelers from the Army, USMC, Navy Air Force, Guard and Resereve units. Each and every one of them was a fully stocked mobile gunshop dedicated to keeping the M14s out on the line up and running. Constant issues with triggers, rebedding every 1,000 rounds or less, op rod issues, you name it, they repaired it. Never seemed to be lacking for business, either.

You don't see that anymore now that the AR's become the dominant Service Rifle. The few military vans that still do such maintainence are all parked across the road over by Range Control now, and cater mostly to the competitors who still shoot the M1As in the Springfield Armory match (which requires the use of the M1A/M14). We've also seen a shift in that during the M14s heyday, a 470 would make the cut almost anywhere in a leg match. Today, you'd better nail down a 480-485 to safely avoid being "first leather." Ditto with the President's Hundred, where a 282-283 used to be a pretty safe score to make the cut. Today, you'd better be kickin' a 286 or better if the weather's half way decent. This year we had not one, but TWO army shooters post perfect cleans in this match. Never happened with the M14s, nowhere close.

We have one guy on my team, Greg Meredith, who still shoots an M1A, and is consistantly ranked as one of the top 100 HP shooters in the nation. He manages this in spite of the M1A, not because of it. It's his choice, he shoots it very well, but even he's running into the issue with finding decent 'smiths to work on it these days. The guy whose been doing it for him for many years now, is retiring. And as I'm sure you know, you don't hand a match conditioned M1A to the local gun-plumber who fixes busted shotguns, and expect to get a decent rifle back; just doesn't work that way. The guys who were trained by Rock Island are getting to be few and far between now days, and that's going to cause problems for those who still wish to campaign an M14 in the matches. Hell, it already is. Even the USAMU has dropped the M14 for it's LR Service Rifle teams in favor of the M110/AR10, and are very pleased with the switch. Better scores, less maintanence issues, and more wins. That's kinda what they're all about.

So in answer to your question, no, I have no idea how many M14s I was issued over the years (at least a half dozen or so, personally), two M21s during my time in the army, and three personally owned N/M M1As over the years, one of which I still have. As far as my competitive shooting, 35+ years, steadily, though that's going between bolt guns, AR Service Rifles, and M14s/M1As at various periods. I've missed just one Nationals at Perry in the past 20+ years, and still shoot Service Rifle, despite having long since having earned my Distinguished and President's Hundred tab. Until the program wwas disbanded a year or so back, I was still teaching active duty SDMs for the CMP/USAMU, and still teach/coach at the SAFS every year at Perry before the matches get under way.

Any more questions?
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

Yeah, kinda like what Mark Twain once said. "It ain't so much what folks don't know that gets 'em in trouble, as what they do know that ain't so."
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> you don't hand a match conditioned M1A to the local gun-plumber who fixes busted shotguns</div></div>

I agree with that, but you don't take a Trap Gun to a Service Rifle Armor either.

HP shooters switching to the AR isn't do to the maintance problems of the M14, but because the service rifle is the M16. Just as the M1 replaced the Springfield in Serive Rifle, it certainly wasn't because the Garand required less maintance.

But maintance issues isn't the main reason for the civilian shooters going to the ARs, its cost, both rifle and ammo, PLUS and this is a BIG PLUS, the AR is easier to shoot then the M14/M1A, in weight and recoil allowing more juniors and ladies to compete, and I personally think the AR saved High Power.

The problem with the M110/AR10s is they arn't legal in CMP matches.

Another down fall or reason M14/M1As arn't used is the CMP had loaned CMP Clubs hundreds of these rifles. After the start of our current wars there was a shortage of SDM rifles and they were called back from the Clubs.

Cost is also a major factor. When I got my M1A new, it was $295. Granted that was a standard grade (guard paid for my upgrade to a Super Match). Super Matches are close to $3000 or better.

My White Oak AR upper was less then $800.

But I still say the maintance problems some claim the M14 has isn't there.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

I was under the impression the AR15 started replacing the M1A in competition was because they were winning.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was under the impression the AR15 started replacing the M1A in competition was because they were winning.</div></div>

Well that too, mainly because they are easier to shoot.

Having said that, I've never shoot the scores with my White Oak that I have with my M1A, but a lot of that has to do with I have many more years behind the M1A.

Plus since I got my DR badge in '92 and retired from Guard Shooting I don't put the effort into HP that I use to.

I'm more into the CMP GSM Vintage rifle games today.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

The M14, along with the M1, are still "issued" Service Rifles, and perfectly legal under both CMP and NRA rules. The M14 replaced the M1 due to its better inherent accuracy; plain and simple, a good M14 will outshoot an equally well built M1 in the vast majority of cases. Maintainence between the two is pretty similar, but without the op rod issues in the case of the M14. That argument is a wash.

The reason the Army switched to the M16 was due to an order of an AMU commander (a line Infanry officer, Col. Maclaury Johnson; never a competitive shooter himself) who demanded that his team use the "issue" Service Rifle, even if it put that team at a disadvantage. It was through the works of some very dedicated AMU experimenters like Troy Lawton that the advantages in the M16 platform were really developed. That, combined with the advent of the JLK and later Sierra 80 grain bullets for Long Range, and it was just serendipity. Time, events and equipment all coming together at a certian place to really shine and create the change to what we have today. Still, there were a number of USAMU members who resigned their positions rather than switch from the M14 to the M16s. It was NOT a popular decision. After an awkward period of adjustment and a forced "crash course" in building good ARs, they found out just how good they truly could be. That was when the scores went up, and they've never looked back. Took the Marines another two years or so to be convinced, but they finally made the switch after getting trounced, badly and repeatedly, by USAMU teams using the ARs. As for the maintainence issue, I had a conversation with Troy Lawton a year or two after USAMU had made the switch. I asked him what the shooters thought of them, and his immediate reply was, "They love them. Scores are up and they're easier to shoot well." As an afterthought, I asked about the armorers. He shook his head and said, "They hate 'em!" Surprised, I asked what he meant. "They don't have anything to do these days and have to find stuff to do to look busy" he explained. "They build them, issue them to the guys and don't see them again until they've shot the barrel out." Not at all like the M14 days when constant work was required to keep those guns in top form.

Look, I love the M14s, and there's a real soft spot in my heart for them. But they're also outdated. Like an M1911, it was the greatest of its time, but it's long in the tooth today, and there's better options out there. And, while the M110 isn't a legal Service Rifle for the CMP, it is for the NRA. And it's the NRA that runs the Long Range matches where these guns (either the M14s or the M110s) are being used, not the CMP. I'm building one right now, and we're going to be fielding a team to shoot LR Service Rifle with them at Perry next year. The down side is that I'll be spending three+ weeks there instead of the usual two. Used to do that in years past, but that's a LOT of time on the range, and just about all the fun I can handle anymore.
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

You can build a 308 AR that will do what you want for about 1200-1500 bucks depending on options however it will be more difficult to shoot than a bolt rifle at least in the beginning.

Most anyone can pick up a rem700, put match ammunition in it and shoot 3/4" groups @ 100. Harder to do that with a 308 AR as there are more things going on with the rifle.

Like I said earlier personally I would rather have a bolt rifle with a 20" or longer barrel in 260 rem or similar, 24-26" if it's going to be a dedicated F class sort of rifle (extra velocity is always good downrange).
 
Re: Is 1 M.O.A Enough.

OP,

Out of everyone that has posted in this thread, and there are some good responses... I would pay to drink with Kevin Thomas.

But why put a semi through such aggravation of single load in F-Class?

And when it comes to M21/M40(A1) shenanigans, I had a year's worth of Rangers $ SF come through my classes {'85-'86} at Stone Bay and have my own personal opinion. Total Tour: '76-'86
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Me? I'd grab a 700 5R and top it off with a 8-32x56 NightForce with MOAR reticle and be fucking miles ahead of any razzmatazz M14/M21 clone. When the funds are ready, sell the 5R and have www.accurateordnance.com build from the ground up. There's only about a $300 saving if you hand them your 5R. Hell I drank and ate more than $300 in 96hrs at any Port of Call I swaggered into.

EDIT: OP, I have a hard time with the English language! You want to run in local TactLR Comps. No, 1MOA is not enough and I stand behind with what I said about the 5R but change to a FFP NightForce with an MOA reticle of your choice.

Sorry, three daughters still in the house and a wife that lets me still come in the door.
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