Advanced Marksmanship Ladder Tests

[stevieb92]

Hi everyone. I have been a lurker here for a few years, soaking up all the info my brain can handle over that time. I have learned a ton of useful info and am trying to put it to good use. I just started reloading for my rifles, and thought I would try a ladder test on two of them.

I have a Post-64 Winchester Mod 70, in .270 Win, mounted in a Hogue full bed block ghillie tan stock, with an EGW 20 moa rail, TPS Low 1 inch rings, with a Vortex Diamondback 4-12x40 BDC scope.

My other rifle is a Remington 700 AAC-SD, factory Hogue stock, EGW 20 moa rail, TPS super low 30mm rings, with a Vortex Viper HS 2.5-10x44 scope.

The Winchester shoots slightly under moa with factory ammo, and I have had a consistent copper fouling issue with it. Within a few shots, the bore is completely covered in copper all the way out to the muzzle. I have done the JB bore bright treatment, and just recently the Tubbs Final Finish system. The copper fouling still occurs, but cleaning it is MUCH easier since I have done all of those treatments.

I am most impressed with the Rem 700, as with FGMM 168 and Hornady 168 AMAX factory loaded ammo, it is a consistent .5-.6 moa rifle with those loads. Even with the Hogue stock. I use a Bulls Bag rest, and a rear bag to adjust elev. I pull the Bulls Bag all the way back to just in front of the trigger guard, so there is very little of the rifle weight sitting on the end out near the sling swivel, where a bipod would be mounted.

Today, I shot a ladder test with both rifles and was curious if anyone could help decode the results with me, since I am totally new to reloading. Both of these rifles are primarily hunting rifles.

For the Win, I was using Winchester brass, IMR 4350, Hornady 130 gr SST, and Federal 210 primers. Cases were full length sized, trimmed, chamfered, deburred, primer pocket uniformed, and thoroughly cleaned. My ladder went from 49.0 to 55.0 gr in 0.5 increments.

For the Rem, I was using Hornady brass, Varget, Nosler 168 gr BT, and Federal 210 primers. Cases were full length sized, trimmed, chamfered, deburred, primer pocket uniformed, and thoroughly cleaned. My ladder went from 39.0 to 45.0 gr in 0.5 increments.

I was shooting at 300 yards, since that is the longest range my club is configured for. Both my rifles are zeroed at 200 yards, so for this test, I didn't do any adjustment for elevation. I used the orange dot shown in the pics for the POA and let them fall where they may.

First are the Win 70 results...

Next are the Rem 700 results...

For the Win 70, I am thinking I have a node around 54.0-54.5 gr.

For the Rem 700, I am also thinking I have a node around 43.0-43.5 gr.

I would appreciate any and all thoughts and comments.

Thanks,
Steve B

 

[Gunfighting Inc]

Re: Ladder Tests

I would do another ladder test to refine it some. For the 700, I think your node is 42gr-43.5. For the Win 70, 53.5-54.5. Load for this test in .2 increments. .5 gr increments is a bit wide for a ladder test. I like it when a cluster of 3 or 4 rounds makes it easy to ID the node. With a .5gr load spread 4 rounds covers 2 grains, which can make it difficult to get a cluster. .3 grains is ideal spread for an initial ladder test IMH and limited experience opinion.

 

[jdgray]

Re: Ladder Tests

I got better results using this method
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/#/ocw-instructions/4529817134

My 300yrd ladder test, looked like a very nice hunting round group....

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Ladder Tests

<span style="font-size: 20pt"> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^</span>

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Ladder Tests

I like to use the information from both. I've gotten some of my best groups using AA2015 and H4895 (ladder method)in the .308. I still feel however, Varget is a better overall choice for that cartridge. In general the best loads for that have been around 44.0-44.5 in my rifles. That's using 168's and 175's. (OCW method)

 

[stevieb92]

Re: Ladder Tests

An update to my ladder testing. I loaded up more ammo and went with a 0.2 gr increment from 52.7 to 55.1 gr of IMR 4350 for the Win 70 and 42.8 to 45.2 gr of Varget for the Rem 700. Results are below.

Win 70

Rem 700

I think I see a node around 54.5 to 54.9 for the Win 70 and 44.4 to 44.8 for the Rem 700. Thoughts? I am open to suggestions. I am planning to do the OCW test soon too.

 

[LRCampos]

Re: Ladder Tests

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stevieb92</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think I see a node around 54.5 to 54.9 for the Win 70 and 44.4 to 44.8 for the Rem 700. Thoughts? I am open to suggestions. I am planning to do the OCW test soon too. </div></div>

I think you got it right, but I would include 45,0gr. on the Rem700.


LRCampos.

 

[Eznutz]

Re: Ladder Tests

Any updates on your OCW test? Pics? Im curious to know because i am sort of in the same boat and curious how yours turns out. Good luck

 

[stevieb92]

Re: Ladder Tests

Sorry for not updating this thread sooner. I was in the UK for a week, and just returned yesterday. So, the next thing I did was load several three shot groups of a few different charge weights and shoot them @ 100 yds. I know, I know, 3 shot groups = bad. I will do 5 shot groups next time out.

So, for the time being check out the results below...

Win 70:
A = 52.8 grain 1.198 MOA
B = 52.9 grain 1.647 MOA
C = 53.0 grain .718 MOA
D = 53.1 grain 1.487 MOA
E = 53.2 grain 1.274 MOA

Rem 700:
A = 42.8 grain 1.512 MOA
B = 42.9 grain .657 MOA
C = 43.0 grain .812 MOA
D = 43.1 grain .452 MOA (personal best group ever)
E = 43.2 grain 1.342 MOA

 

[stevieb92]

Re: Ladder Tests

Ok, I have some 5 shot groups to share.

The Win 70 (.270) target is four groups of 5 shots, each labeled, A, B, C, and D. The center bull was 2 fouler shots with Winchester Super-X Power Point, 150 gr factory ammo. All four groups were loaded with 53.0 grains of IMR 4350. Groups labeled A and B, were loaded with Hornady 130 gr SST, while the groups labeled, C and D were loaded with Nosler 130 gr Ballistic Tips. I couldn't load the Noslers to the same overall length as the Hornady bullets, because the Noslers hit the rifling much sooner than the Hornady. The Nosler has a significantly different ogive profile. In fact, in my rifle, I can load the Hornady bullets to max magazine length and still be a good jump to the rifling. The Nosler bullets allow me to get almost touching the rifling and still have a bunch of clearance left in the magazine. I might switch to Noslers after my Hornady bullets are used up, simply because I can load them much closer to the rifling.

A = 1.355 MOA Hornady SST
B = .938 MOA Hornady SST
C = 1.006 MOA Nosler BT
D = 1.088 MOA Nosler BT

The Rem 700 (.308) target is four groups of 5 shots each labeled, A, B, C, and D (except B is four, I ran out of Nosler bullets). The center bull was 2 fouler shots with Federal Gold Medal Match 168 gr factory ammo. All four groups were loaded with 43.1 grains of Varget. Groups labeled A and B, were loaded with Nosler 168 gr Ballistic Tips. The groups labeled C and D, were loaded with Hornady 168 gr A-Max bullets. I loaded all rounds to the same overall length of 2.815. The ogive profile difference between the Nosler and A-Max is almost nil. That gives me about .010 clearance in the magazine. I knew I pulled that one shot in group B. Oh well.

A = .727 MOA Nosler BT
B = 1.687 MOA Nosler BT (4 shots with a pulled shot)
C = 1.067 MOA Hornady A-Max
D = .477 MOA Hornady A-Max

Overall I am happy with the results. I definitely need more practice behind the rifles, and also a better powder scale. I think I have slight shifts in the powder charges.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Ladder Tests

I think you're doing a great job documenting what a complete waste of time the ladder testing is.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Ladder Tests

A chronograph may be a more effective tool in determining the usefulness of a particular load. I have learned that making my .308 loads productive, primarily by sorting cases to assure consistent neck tension, as well as charging cases to get an average velocity which will accommodate my sight adjustment increments to hold exact elevation at distance is most important. At any rate, I think you would be smart to recast your mindset with advice from those who actually know how to do it rather than from those who don't know what they don't know. I'm speaking generally not saying that any here who have offered advice do not know how to do it. I just see folks get wrapped up around powder charges to the .00 while they have never considered building their position to the same exactness. This makes all their hand loading effort a waste as conslusions based on what things look like are not what they had to look like.

 

[jakel]

Re: Ladder Tests

tag

 

[NMMX]

Re: Ladder Tests

tag

 

[Rthur]

Re: Ladder Tests

The following picture is a ladder test @ 300 from a 6.5x47L with varget. As seen by the groupings 8-12 are a good node as well as 13-15. I didn't see pressure on 15 and should have added 2 or 3 more loads to verify pressure. They would also probably have been in the 13-15 group. Number 10 was the shooter's fault as well as #3. These are the typical results we get on a ladder test. I personally have had good luck finding a solid load this way many times. Also to be noted a minor ocw test at range to follow. The ocw test is more of a fine tune for the load as we do it. For reference the diamond on the paster is 1".