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F T/R Competition Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

phillip61

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Jun 14, 2012
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I was talking to a guy the other day about shooting in some matches at Camp Robinson Arkansas. He said they had monthly matches there. One was a 600 yd match (66 shots) the other was a 1000 yd match. I said I would be interested in the 600 yd match. Then heres the part that thru me. he said "Zero your rifle at 600 and come on up". I said why do you need a 600yd zero? Why can't you zero at 100 and dial up 600 on your scope afterwards? He said you can do that, but you probably won't win anything. All the guys that shoot here have there rifles zeroed at 600 and don't mess with their elevation knobs here.

So I guess my question would be "is that what most people do"? I don't have a place where I can shoot 600. So I would have to use my elevation knobs to dial to 600. I just thought thats what everyone did.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

I agree with your friend. In my Service rifles, where I shoot 200, 300, 600 and 1000 yards I have 4 different zeros.

Come ups with get you close, but nothing gives you a zero at a given range like zeroing your rifle at that range.

As to Camp Robinson. I shot every Wilson match from 78-91, all but three years when I shot combat pistol, was with the rifle. My 600 zero at Camp Robinson was different then my 600 yard zero at 29 Palms and Ft Richardson AK.

It pays to use and keep score (data) books.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

I'm not really sure exactly how he meant that statement. People do it the way you described all the time, and very effectively, I might add. Obviously, it's better to have dope using your setup at the exact location, but not an absolute necessity, and not always possible for every competitor. Besides which, a zero at some range is likely to be anywhere from slightly to significantly different when you change locations or shoot at the same location when the elevation, atmospheric conditions, and/or wind are different. Basically, that's what the sighters are for. So unless you've actually doped your setup at the exact location under the exact the same conditions, a "zero" will likely be slightly off and require some adjustment, anyhow.

My drop/windage cards are all based on a 100 yd zero using JBM Ballistics. I have a few different drop cards for each rifle for several places I shoot that have different elevations, and/or dramatically different average humidity and temp values. I simply dial for the predicted drop at 600 or 1000 yd for the location I'm shooting. As long as the data I input with respect muzzle velocity and atmospheric conditions is accurate, I have rarely been more than 0.5 MOA off (and usually much less) in elevation; the numbers from JBM have been VERY good.

As an example, I live in San Diego and shoot in 1000 yd matches at Camp Pendleton. The elevation at Range 117 there is approximately 420 ft. Prior to attending a match in Raton, NM, I used my known MV and the elevation/atmospheric conditions there (6600 ft, very hot and dry) to generate a drop card based on a 100 yd zero. Although I had no chance to practice there beforehand, when it was my turn at the line, I dialed the scope based on the predicted value (which was significantly less than what I normally use in SD due to the greater elevation and different atmospheric conditions). The elevation was absolutely dead on at 1000 yd, not even a single 0.125 MOA click change was necessary. Now windage, on the other hand, was a completely different story (LOL).

The most important thing is to be on paper with your first shot, which doesn't have to be in the X-ring. Of course, closer is always better in terms of minimizing the necessary adjustments before shooting for score. But as long as you're on the target, the shot marker will tell you what elevation/windage adjustment(s) are needed to get you in the center. It just needs to be close enough to get you on with your first shot because if you miss, there might be little to no feedback on which direction you were off, making it much more difficult to get dialed in. For me, JBM ballistics has been extremely close and I've had no trouble using the approach you described. So having good dope for your setup at a specific location is always the best, particularly with only two sighters per match, but not an absolute necessity.

Also, at some matches that allow only two sighters, you may be allowed two fouling shots into the berm prior to the sighters before the first match. If so, you can definitely use them to your advantage to see how close your setup is (POA to POI). Pick a dirt clod, rock, or other point, and you can start to dial in based on the actual point of impact relative to that. That way, your sighters can be used more for "fine tuning", rather than a gross adjustment. You should definitely get out and try it and best of luck.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

^^^^^What these guys said...

The only thing I could think of to add, would be that you must realize that your "Zero" at any given range may actually change as conditions change throughout the day/hour/minute, and is not an absolute - as the above posts explain much better than I can.

Paul
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

Where you have the knob set to zero makes little to no difference at all as long as you understand the needed adjustments to put a round on target.


I use a 100 yard zero, I know my come ups for 600/800/900/1000 and keep them in my range book. I also shoot 800/900/1000 full bore matches where you shoot 15 for record from each distance.

As stated above your elevation will change with conditions at long range. I've seen my 1000 yard elevation change a full MOA between the first relay in the morning and shooting in the afternoon when it's 30 degrees hotter.


The hardest ting to get is a solid 1000 yard no wind zero on windage. That one took me for ever to get because at 1000 yards there is almost never a "no wind' condition to get the dope.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

Pretty much everyone I know zeroes their rifles at shorter distances locally - whether its at 100 or 300 seems to be a matte of preference (and occasionally limitations of the gear), and then uses come-ups from there. Once you get out there and shoot in a match there, write down the actual come-ups so you have them as a reference for next time. That may be what your 'buddy' was referring to. But every new rifle, every new load, you have to start out with computed come-ups and find out your 'actual' the hard way - by shooting in a match.

Depending on the range layout, lighting, altitude, and various other environmental conditions, your long-range zeroes at range facility 'A' will likely *not* be dead-on at range facility 'B'. Very close, yes. Dead on... not real likely.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

OK, I'll continue the dumb question with one of my own. What is the real difference here? In one case the rifle is zeroed at 100 yards, and then the scope is adjusted for a different range, say 600 yards. After a couple shots, tweaking the scope a bit, the rifle now shoots at 600 yds accurately. Why can't this just be considered a new zero? How is it different? Aren't we just dealing with definitions of words really? Sorry if I'm missing the point. I mean how does this really differ from zeroing at 600 to begin with?
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Come ups with get you close, but nothing gives you a zero at a given range like zeroing your rifle at that range.</div></div>

Wot he said
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

DanGuy - Often it <span style="text-decoration: underline">does</span> come to the meaning of words, I think, so we have to define just what Zero is. To me, a zero is where there is zero difference between point of aim and point of impact. A 100 yard zero is where your shot falls exactly where you are pointing at 100 yards. Since almost everyone has access to 100 yard ranges it makes a handy reference point to adjust from for other distances. As you describe in your post - applying your come-up for 600, tweaking it a little and being "on" does, in fact, constitute arriving at a 600 yard zero.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. Would that 600 yard zero be a valid zero if I traveled from my home range at sea level to Colorado at 6000' asl. Others have covered this in posts above, so I won't muddy the waters there. It is enough to say that the answer is "it depends" and "probably not".

Beyond "not very far", so many things influence the flight of one's chosen projectile, that zero won't always be zero.

Paul
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

Another meaning for zero, is where you have your scope set to. The zero on your dial is set at what ever range you want to use, then your come up's - sight settings - are used for getting to where your point of impact hit's where you want. You keep your sight settings on a card or data book and as you shoot more places and/or different conditions you write them down as references. The one main thing that you need is a scope with repeatable adjustments, so when you put your dope on, it comes out the same each time, then adjust for conditions.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

most of my f class shooting is from 300yds so i zero my turrets at 300 i've also chrono'd my rounds and run everything thru a ballistic calc and wrote the info down in a index book with moa adjustments from 100-1000 yds with weather conditions noted. it gets me close at all yardages like my 100yd zero id down 3.3 moa and its very close to on if have to adjust from there i make adjustments off the 100.it comes in handy to have a card or book with all your adjustments on it i shot 2 matches this year where you start at 100 and work out to 1000 .
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

OK, that works for me. I have 100 yd range very close by so that's what I use for sighting. But my "zero" already includes at 100 yards, compensation for my 20 MOA Picatinny for mounting the scope. The scope is certainly not at a "zero", in terms of center of its adjustment range, but will be as I shoot farther out. As you say, helps to define what Zero is. Zero, as it's being used here then, just means the range used to determine initial coincidence of point of aim with point of impact, initial being the important word. Zero would not apply to range most commonly shot? Again as being used in this conversation, correct?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pjparker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DanGuy - Often it <span style="text-decoration: underline">does</span> come to the meaning of words, I think, so we have to define just what Zero is. To me, a zero is where there is zero difference between point of aim and point of impact. A 100 yard zero is where your shot falls exactly where you are pointing at 100 yards. Since almost everyone has access to 100 yard ranges it makes a handy reference point to adjust from for other distances. As you describe in your post - applying your come-up for 600, tweaking it a little and being "on" does, in fact, constitute arriving at a 600 yard zero.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. Would that 600 yard zero be a valid zero if I traveled from my home range at sea level to Colorado at 6000' asl. Others have covered this in posts above, so I won't muddy the waters there. It is enough to say that the answer is "it depends" and "probably not".

Beyond "not very far", so many things influence the flight of one's chosen projectile, that zero won't always be zero.

Paul </div></div>
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

Dan Guy,
To me, zero means exactly what you said, "POI = POA". It can be at any range and essentially means you're not holding off at all to make POI and POA the same. Nor does it imply that the scope is <span style="font-style: italic">optically centered</span>.

In theory, one could zero their rifle at any range greater than 0 yd. In practice, that wouldn't work so well. Many use 100 yd because that distance is commonly available to most people. 500 yd, 600 yd, or further, maybe not. 100 yd is also far enough that you can usually detect the effect of even a single turret click on POI. Depending on the turret adjustment, 25 or 50 yds may not allow that consistently. As I mentioned above, I have often used MV and atmospheric conditions to predict a drop at some distance from my 100 yd zero when participating in a competition at a location I've never shot before. This approach has worked very well for me, but it's also worth noting that in all likelihood, my prior 100 yd zero is probably not dead on at the new location. However, the change in 100 yd zero is usually small enough to be ignored when using the drop data to dial in for some longer distance.

In general, if you have <span style="font-style: italic">reliable</span> MV data for your setup, you can generate pretty decent drop charts for just about any location where you can get an elevation and atmospheric data. This approach will never trump <span style="font-style: italic">actual</span> drop data under specific conditions, but it's usually more than good enough to get you on the target where you can then adjust further from the scoring discs.
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

DanGuy

I think way too much is being read into what constitutes a zero. Being zeroed for a certain distance is nothing more than your bullets impacting at the point of aim at that distance. Period.

Zero means there is zero deviation from your point of aim and your point of impact.

Everything else is incidental, and can be called whatever you want. Adjust your scope knobs to also read zero for that sight setting and distance is just a reference point that is easy to get back to. Scope rail tapers of 10, 20 or whatever MOA are adjusted for in the scope elevation adjustments you make to get on target and will certainly not put the crosshairs in the center of the scope. That is the point of using tapered bases and is not what we're talking about zeroing.

Also understand that that we ARE talking about the meaning of words and the concept of what is actually going on here. This is my spin on the subject. it is really quite simple....trying to explain it is not.....

Paul
 
Re: Question, Not a dumb one I hope.

Not sure why he thinks you need to be zeroed for the exact yardage you're shooting at. I thought that's what the little marks on that knob on top were for. Know your come ups, and dial it in.
The only zero I ever worry about is wind zero. I use my sighters to determine elevation zero, and how far to hold off for wind. And the only reason I want a good wind zero, is for when the wind dies to nothing, and I need to go back to center hold, it doesn't turn into a guessing game.