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Considering getting into long range shooting...

Sooter76

Sooter76

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Minuteman
Sep 14, 2012
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Lincoln, NE
So as the thread title states, I'm considering getting into long range shooting once I return from deployment... My wife has said she will let me have $5000 to play with anyway I see fit so I would think this gives me a little bit of room for possibilities. One of the rifles I was considering was the DPMS REPR...

http://www.dpmsinc.com/NATO-REPR_ep_94-1.html

I like the lines of it, and (while I've heard DPMS is sub-par for 5.56 rifles) I've heard good things abot DPMS 7.62/.308 rifles.

At the same time after looking thru the threads here and looking at the specs, I'm also considering a GAP-10. With the changes I would request, I'd push the price up closer to, or over $3000, but everyone seems to be pleased with their GAP rifles, so perhaps it would be worth it...

My question comes down to how do these rifles compare to each other and other competitors (Armalite, LaRue, etc...) in terms of accuracy and reliability? Would the GAP-10 be worth another $500-$700 over the DPMS (or others)? Why exactly?
Thanks in advance...
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

First off I'd like to say welcome. Secondly I must state that I'm not the guy to talk to about the platforms you're looking into, although I'm sure some knowledgeable people will chime in at some point. I just wanted to suggest that if you're serious about getting into long range shooting that you don't head down the 308 path(been there). How about a 6.5 Creedmoor or 243 with a fast twist for 115gr DTACs or a 260 or a 7mm08 or something else that's offered in the type of rifle you want except with better down range performance than a 308?
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Are you handy with some simple tools? Assembling your own platform is how I roll. Your are going to have to learn it all eventually anyway if you don't already :).

If so, here's how I do it:

Purchase a bolt kit from Brownells and send the bolt to Kreiger. Have them build you a barrel to your specs. Do that now and it will hopefully be done by the time you are stateside. Kreiger will not charge you until the barrel ships and your barrel will arrive headspaced and ready to install. It will have a gas block on it ready to go.

Next, purchase the following from reputable dealers:
Geiselle 2-stage trigger, Magpul PRS Gen II stock, DPMS lower, hanguard/barrel nut of your choice, lower parts kit, upper parts kit, (you will need the "long" gas tube), buffer tube, spring and weight.

Next, order up a bolt carrier and key and upper from Fulton. I recommend Fulton so that you can get the side charging handle option. (You will thank me later.)

Finally, you will need a scope/mount. You should be able to swing a Vortex Razor HD and still stay in your budget. I recommend an AD recon mount.

Paint, assemble, oil and shoot until you are content.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Does your wife have a sister?

Yep, the GAP-10 would unquestionably be worth the difference if it's only $700.

But, are you sure you want a semi-auto for your start into long range shooting? You might be better served by a bolt gun with good optics and an accurizing job for that price range.

Side note, the last time I sent something to Krieger they f'd it up. I had them do just that - chamber an AR-10 barrel and put a muzzle brake on. The brake was timed at about 30-degrees off level when I got it back. I told them it was wrong but they said their gunsmith timed it this way to counteract the torque induced from firing. Good barrels, but I don't trust their gunsmithing.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I just wanted to suggest that if you're serious about getting into long range shooting that you don't head down the 308 path(been there). How about a 6.5 Creedmoor or 243 with a fast twist for 115gr DTACs or a 260 or a 7mm08 or something else that's offered in the type of rifle you want except with better down range performance than a 308? </div></div>

Good advice here, a .308 past 5-600yds isn't fun for targets. Much better choices out there.

I'd go with a GAP 10 or JP LRP-07, either in .260 or 6.5CM.

Factor in costs for glass too, don't want to skip out on that.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...if you're serious about getting into long range shooting that you don't head down the 308 path(been there). </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...a .308 past 5-600yds isn't fun for targets. Much better choices out there. </div></div>

What's wrong with the 7.62x51 if I'm looking at 1000meter(+/-) range? Why the 600 meter limit?
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sooter76</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...if you're serious about getting into long range shooting that you don't head down the 308 path(been there). </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...a .308 past 5-600yds isn't fun for targets. Much better choices out there. </div></div>

What's wrong with the 7.62x51 if I'm looking at 1000meter(+/-) range? Why the 600 meter limit? </div></div>

The drop and wind hold overs get tougher. I've made hits with a .308 at those distances but something like a 6mm or .260 style bullet would be much better, better as in flatter and getting kicked around by the wind. I'm building a 6mmBR for this very reason...
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

With $5000 to spend on a semi I'd go gap10 and still have money for a real nice optic.

With that budget I'd also be looking hard at a custom bolt gun.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

I have an OBR in .308 that I have taken out to about 1000 yds, and it works. Having said that, there are easier ways to get it done. I love that setup for certain specific competitive scenarios, but a different caliber in a custom boltgun would be where I would start if given a $5000 hall pass by my wife (I am assuming this would be your primary/only platform). If it were me, I would go with a custom boltgun in .260 or 7-08 and drive on...
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

OP,

What does long range shooting mean to you; and, what outcome do you visualize? We all have perceptions about what LR is all about based on our experience with it, or from what we've seen or heard about it. For you, you may not need to buy or do anything to get into LR, who knows. The only thing which is clear is that you need a bullet from which you can get the sort of velocity and trajectory to reach the distance you want to shoot to nose-on.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

I would suggest a Savage Model 12BVSS .308. That will leave you with just under $4000.

Get nice, not exorbitant, optics and mounts.

Get a Dillon RL550B handloading setup for .308 as your first caliber.

Get a nice .22LR Bolt gun with economical optics, you'll need it for training/practice, and it will take those tasks off the BVSS and make the bore last a lot longer.

The CCI Standard Velocity .22LR Target ammo is accurate and affordable, get several bricks from the same lot to start with.

By this time you should still have several grand left for handloading components and other expenses, like range club mamberships, and a premium replacment barrel for the original one you'll have worn out plenty soon enough.

I can understand the advice about superduper equipment and I can also understand your desire to take that advice.

Believe me, it's premature. There's already far too many folks out there with ultra-premium rifles and not enough skill to hit their own asses with both hands.

Do not expect to buy premium gear, hit the range, and have the equipment do the heavy lifting. Marksmanship excellence is a serious task, it takes work and time, and progress requires commitment.

The BVSS and the .22LR will serve as a good foundation for learning marksmanship excellence, and you'll go through that first barrel long before the BVSS will start to hold you back.

By then, you'll have a better aftermarket barrel, more money, and genuine insight into how best to spend it.

Greg
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Thanks for all the replies... After further consideration and talking to the DM's and snipers in the Squadron, I think I'm going to reconsider options and go with a bolt gun to start with (I'm getting alot of Remington 700 nods) and learn on. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. All my rifles at home either have straight iron sights or red dots. Them most scope experience I have is the 4x ACOG I carry with me here.

I will probably look at the GAP-10 again in a few years but the bolt gun is looking better as a 'beginner's/learner's tool'... And I'm told that in many cases a Remington 700 is a rifle that can grow with me as I progress in knowledge and skill.

So again, thanks all... And standby for some bolt gun questions.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Go with a Savage, you will get more options and better performance for your money.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

I agree with going with a Savage. Since you can do all the upgrades yourself (barrel swap, bolt handle swap, etc.), you won't be out of a rifle while it's at the gunsmith.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Thanks for your service brother. Its hard to beat the Remmy 700's or Savage's if you get a good one, which is not that hard to do but there is a chance you wont as is the case with every factory rifle. Believe it or not, I've shot .5 moa grps with my factory chambered Rem LTR @ 1K but its not gonna happen often with me.....just possible, it will definately shoot. There's often low rnd count GAP bolt guns for sale here that you could get nice optics for and still be well within your price point....you'd have s setup most of us dream about. BTW, of course there's better, but the .308 will make it to 1k just fine. The best selection in bullets available for it and it can be shot on the cheap. Good luck.

okie
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

A .308 is where many/most start. Expense is relative and depends on many things. If you are gonna roll your own, a .260 or 7-08 isn't really more expensive when compared to the additional performance.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mkollman74</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A .308 is where many/most start. Expense is relative and depends on many things. If you are gonna roll your own, a .260 or 7-08 isn't really more expensive when compared to the additional performance.
</div></div>

True...didn't see where he said anything bout reloading. Try findin 260 or 7-08's in FGMM....maybe Blackhills? They're both great cartrages but not as redily available as the .308 in match form. A 300 WM will spank both of them even to greater ranges and a .338 Lapua past that....just depends on where you're gonna draw the line.

okie
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

After rereading; I guess there can be a number of interpretations for the term "Long Range".

To me, it describes the regime where the bullet is decellerating down to just above transsonic.

With the .308/175, that's around 1000yd, for the .223, maybe somewhat less, and for the .22LR, probably not too far beyond 100yd.

For learning; I think that makes the .22LR invaluable for seeing and understanding wind effects, and unless you've got convenient, assured accesss to the full 1000yd, the.223 becomes the centerfire of choice for actually getting out there and dealing with scouting the midrange winds and applying wind corrections.

If a basic and simple Semi with LR capability still tweaks your interest, the Stag Model 6 Super Varminter is a 5.56 with a 24" 1:8" heavy Stainless Barrel that lists at $1055, and mine shoots seriously well.

The .308 is excellent for beginners, but it can also be more costly to feed than .223, and actual 1000yd performance can be marginal. Unless you are regularly going that full distance, the .223 is quite good, and there are better chamberings (like .260 or 6.5CM) than the .308 for 1000yd that don't require upping your game to a Magnum.

My "all out, go for the boonies" chambering is probably going to turn out to be a .280 Rem, but I still have work to do, and the chambering is only in its early recognition stage as a suitible LR chambering by others.

It's a 7mm, not a magnum, and not a wildcat; but steps up the .30-'06 case capacity's performance to something beyond .30-'06 and maybe beyond the .300WM. The bolt face diameter is the same as the .308/.30-'06/etc. Recoil is probably better than either with LR-suitible bullets.

My .280's were inherited from my Elder Brother who also was trying the 7mm Mag, and the .280 was his definite preference at the time of his demise. If I've got it right, then what I'm actually doing is continuing his last project.

Greg
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

LMT MWS ($2500) leaves you with $2500 for scope.

USO/S&B/Premier for $2500 with mount. If you don't need the QD feature, a regular mount or rings.



You can buy extra barrels in .260, 7-08, 6.5, etc. down the road for the LMT.


Have fun and Good Luck.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

If you'll read the whole thread, you'll see he's decided to go with a bolt gun.

It has always cracked me up to hear people say the .308 is a LR chambering for beginners. They will admit in one sentence that it is at its supersonic limit at 1k and then in the next sentence say it is "for beginners". As with every cartrage, some things are good for beginners and some aren't. When a bullet slows and starts getting pushed around by the wind etc., it definatly dosn't make it for "beginners". Things that make it good for beginners along with everyone else... its economical to shoot, its very easy on barrels, it'll shoot well from 100 to 1K, the best match components are redily available, lots of factory offerings in guns and ammo, every gunsmith on the planet KNOWS the chambering well. The OP's just wanting to "get into LR shooting", he dosn't reload, and we're recommending 280 Remmy's?, WSM's?, 6.5's?, etc....and all along trashing the .308......funny.

okie
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Good points.

I consider the .308 to be a good 1000yd beginner cartridge because it will exhibit wind deflection more clearly and demands that the shooter develop sound wind skills. Learn first, apply later. All the points you make about the .308's advantages are absolutely correct, and I think the shooter will benefit from taking them to heart.

I see I give the wrong impression regarding the .280. I wasn't really recommending it to the beginner as much as adding to my former commnents as some thoughts about where to go after that first step. I am sorry that I failed to make that part clear.

Yes, I recognize that the OP does not handload. I was thinking that with $5K to invest, a decent handlaoding platform would be a logical addition, just like the .22LR.

Greg
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Sorry Greg, looking back at my post it looks like I was pinpointing you since I mentioned the 280 but I really wasn't. I very much agree with you especially on the $5K limit for the OP, there's lots of ways he can go with that and not go wrong.

okie
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Recollecting my own experience getting into LR, I remember starting out with a rack grade M1A; but, that platform did not seem to me to be appropriate. My ego was big and I wanted to prove I could shoot. At any rate, I purchased a Remington 700 action, HS Precision adjustable stock, and HS Precision barrel chambered for .308. I put a peep sight set on the finished rifle, which was smithed by HS Precision. All of this took place before there was an f class. I shot the rifle in NRA LR match rifle division. That means with irons and sling support. After two seasons of shooting and five dry wall buckets worth of practice I had the motor and picture memory skills to shoot some pretty good scores. And, learning how to properly monitor for wind, I made High Master. It was only when shooting in HM class that my rifle was perceived as a handicap. I replaced it with a 6.5/284, which I could win with; but, replacing barrels was an expense I was not prepared for. So today, I'm back to what I started out with, a Service Rifle, only this time it's a match conditioned commercial equivalent of the M16A2. No doubt, it's the most difficult way to get good hits at 1000 yards but I believe it also promotes a more comprehensive learning experience.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Go with a Savage, you will get more options and better performance for your money. </div></div><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Temp9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with going with a Savage. Since you can do all the upgrades yourself (barrel swap, bolt handle swap, etc.), you won't be out of a rifle while it's at the gunsmith. </div></div>Fortunately I bought a Savage, so when I realized I wanted a 7mm instead of a 308 I was able to change the barrel myself. Now I have an HS Precision Savage 308 with a Criterion 7mm08 barrel that I put on in my garage that makes touching bullet holes at 100 yards. Can't do that with a Remington. I'm still on my 1st rifle since I got the bug to do this a few years ago and although I've made several mistakes along that way that usually cost me money I am still glad I went with a Savage instead of a Remington. At least I got that one right.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
346ci said:
Can't do that with a Remington. </div></div>

Who do you think you're kiddin.? Lot of people on this site do that with Remmys every time they go to the range. Maybe you had one that wuoldnt, there's plenty of Savages and any other brand that won't do it too. The only person you're foolin here is yourself making that kind of statement.

Okie
Click to expand...
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Who do you think you're kiddin.? Lot of people on this site do that with Remmys every time they go to the range. Maybe you had one that wuoldnt, there's plenty of Savages and any other brand that won't do it too. The only person you're foolin here is yourself making that kind of statement.</div></div>

If you look at the context of the statement you quoted, you'll see he was referring to the Savage's ability to change barrels/calibers yourself while still maintaining a high level of accuracy.

That *is* something you can't really DIY with a Remington 700.
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmchairElite</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
346ci said:
Can't do that with a Remington. </div></div>

Who do you think you're kiddin.? Lot of people on this site do that with Remmys every time they go to the range. Maybe you had one that wuoldnt, there's plenty of Savages and any other brand that won't do it too. The only person you're foolin here is yourself making that kind of statement.

Okie </div></div>

Not sure how my name got in there. Remy used to make nice rifles, I would know as I once was a 700 lover. Once the freedom group buy out, they have went to shit, IMO. Sad to see it but that is what happens when money is all that matters.

I don't think anyone would disagree on what you can do to a remy, they are like a buttstang or Camaro. However, if you want the most for your money, as I work damn hard for mine, Savage is at the top for a off the shelf boom stick.

Edit: BoilerUp got it straght, so yeah, you can't do that with a remy, LOL.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

Sorry but,.....I think you can see where I could have gotten confused. Still not sure but I appoligize if I did.

Okie
 
Re: Considering getting into long range shooting...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry but,.....I think you can see where I could have gotten confused. Still not sure but I appoligize if I did.

Okie </div></div>Lol. That's OK Okie. BoilerUP is correct though. I know that Remingtons can be very accurate. I just wouldn't be able to change a barrel in my garage without having the accuracy of a ping pong ball with one.

Made me laugh having
346ci said:
in my quote though. Didn't realize I wrote that
smile.gif
.
Click to expand...
 
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