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Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

alpha6164

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 3, 2008
973
30
Jacksonville, FL
I have had a 14.5" 308 POF for about a year and have put less than 50 rounds thru it. I have never really tried to shoot groups with it during this time. I was actually trying to decide whether i should sell the POF and get an OBR. Before dropping some serious coin i decided to do a side by side comparison. I called my good friend Chris Costa and he let me borrow his 16" OBR. He states that he has roughly 200 rounds thru this. He has a 18" as well but i wanted to compare it to the 16".

I figured i make this a two fold test and tested both with Federal Gold 175g factory and my own hand loads which are SMK 175, Varget 44.0g loaded to 2.810". These were loaded using full body size and seated using Redding competition seater.

The ammo was tested blind as in i did not know what i was shooting. My buddy basically loaded the 5 rounds of an unknown ammo (to me) and loaded the rifle. I shot the rifles not knowing whether they had factory or hand loads in them. I could not do a blind test on the rifles since my POF has a NPR-2 reticle and Costa's OBR has the Horus H58.

I did a few dry fire tests and then shot 5 rounds with OBR, then 5 shots with POF, then five shots with OBR and another 5 shots with POF. Each 5 shot group was shot with about 20-30sec between each shot. The rifles each got about a 15 min cool down between each 5 shot group. My friend revealed after all 4 groups were shot which were the factory rounds and which were my hand loads. All shots were shot prone, from bipod and sand bag in the rear.




OBR Federal Gold 175

C6E3129D-1FCB-49D1-A1C1-7B32FEECE815-3321-000003552ABAF81D.jpg











POF Federal Gold 175


042EA86C-A97B-486E-895B-BFD315D441C1-3321-00000355264BC02E.jpg















OBR 16" hand loads

2DD233DE-7E30-4AF3-8561-2CFA7E8A3217-3321-0000035521AFF303.jpg












POF 14.5" hand loads

F324A97F-B171-4DA3-AD1E-C41B3E11C276-3321-000003551AF42C6F.jpg






I guess what surprised me is the deviation between factory match and my hand loads. It is almost undisputable that both OBR and POF shot significantly better with the hand loads. The POF and OBR shot really well and were hammers. The POF really impressed me keeping a sub 1/2MOA group. The OBR was right there.

This is not to say that the POF is better or more accurate than OBR. I am sure i can do this test three other times and we might have even closer results. Neither had any hiccups and are absolute hammers. I measured both barrel profiles and at the muzzle and the OBR is 0.75" and POF is 0.78" so pretty much identical.




Here they are side by side:




A66E7FE3-04FA-4ED5-A03C-E9FA9DC2D081-3321-000003553A91715A.jpg

F2635D67-85D9-43FD-BD0C-76D1F6337165-3321-0000035534D06901.jpg

9D823918-7340-4BAB-BCFF-56BC2604D855-3321-000003552F646F95.jpg
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Damn, I thought my bar was stocked! Did you turn the labels on purpose?
whistle.gif


So the handloads were developed for the POF? That would be the reason for the variance in groups I would think. As for the FGMM, I would have thought both would have better groups...
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

This has been my experience as well and it's interesting for the fact that most internet discussions on the subject will decry the accuracy of the Piston Rifles.

POF has it down, and their rifles are stone cold accurate...

Both are nice, but I really don't see you compromising with a rifle like the POF, sure they dont' have the fanboy following the other does, but at the end of the day, the end results matter, and you in effect saved a few bucks, and potential waiting period.

Thanks for unbiased, objective look at the end results.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: T2CH</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn, I thought my bar was stocked! Did you turn the labels on purpose?
whistle.gif


So the handloads were developed for the POF? That would be the reason for the variance in groups I would think. As for the FGMM, I would have thought both would have better groups... </div></div>

No these were not developed for the POF at all. With the limited space we have in the Pmag and Larue's magazine 2.810" is about as far as i can seat them and to make sure reliable feeding. 44.0gr of varget is pretty standard dose so they should perform equally well. I still think any semi consistently sub-MOA is a winner and both OBR and POF did that. The difference was only 1/4MOA at 100yards.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Hmmmmmm? You mean one can actually objectively campare two products, on the internet, without bashing one? Interesting concept--maybe it'll catch on.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air. Good write up.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alcoholic
smile.gif
</div></div>


I drink occasionally. That is for my guests
smile.gif
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: patsim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmmmm? You mean one can actually objectively campare two products, on the internet, without bashing one? Interesting concept--maybe it'll catch on.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air. Good write up. </div></div>

Its a excellent write up......but post it on AR15 and he'd be butt raped.

OP, I really like that you blind tested with the ammo.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: patsim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmmmmm? You mean one can actually objectively campare two products, on the internet, without bashing one? Interesting concept--maybe it'll catch on.

Thanks for the breath of fresh air. Good write up. </div></div>

Its a excellent write up......but post it on AR15 and he'd be butt raped.

OP, I really like that you blind tested with the ammo. </div></div>


This def will not be posed on arfcom lol

Yes the ammo done blindly really helped. I really wanted to do the rifles blindly if they had the same reticle. I was gonna lay prone and close my eyes and have my buddy just place the rifle in front of me so when i open my eyes all i see is the reticle and target. But it is impossible to do when they are different reticles.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Cool concept but I'd certainly say you should do more testing with what ever rifle you shoot and potentially develop a load for that rifle. One group with each ammo type says very little in the scheme of things. You may find your POF or the OBR is much more or less capable than your results. You have a great starting point. Nothing wrong with shooting your rifle rather than selling and starting over. Both should be very capable.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

I would not sweat it, your results are consistent with my personal observations, although I don't shoot Federal Factory much, and personally my factory groups tend to be a bit better... this is what I have seen.

Personally I average about 1/2" with the OBR and 3/8"s with my POFs, I feel you presented the facts in a way that others would call foul if someone like myself was to do the same thing. In fact i posted a pix of me shooting an OBR on FB and a LT Fanboy immediately called me out for finally shooting one. Forget I have shot them here and there since they were introduced.

Lots of unbiased tests, but the perception is what clouds the results. You have no preconceived perception problems. That is what makes this work as well as it does.

Thanks,

PS, I think you need to post it over on AR15.
smile.gif
Just by an fire suit, and avoid your bar.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not sweat it, your results are consistent with my personal observations, although I don't shoot Federal Factory much, and personally my factory groups tend to be a bit better... this is what I have seen.

Personally I average about 1/2" with the OBR and 3/8"s with my POFs, I feel you presented the facts in a way that others would call foul if someone like myself was to do the same thing. In fact i posted a pix of me shooting an OBR on FB and a LT Fanboy immediately called me out for finally shooting one. Forget I have shot them here and there since they were introduced.

Lots of unbiased tests, but the perception is what clouds the results. You have no preconceived perception problems. That is what makes this work as well as it does.

Thanks,

PS, I think you need to post it over on AR15.
smile.gif
Just by an fire suit, and avoid your bar. </div></div>

Oh no Frank... It was me he was calling out originally remember. lol...
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cool concept but I'd certainly say you should do more testing with what ever rifle you shoot and potentially develop a load for that rifle. One group with each ammo type says very little in the scheme of things. You may find your POF or the OBR is much more or less capable than your results. You have a great starting point. Nothing wrong with shooting your rifle rather than selling and starting over. Both should be very capable. </div></div>


I have no doubt that if i owned the OBR i would develop a load for that. But again being a semi, about the only thing we can play with is charge weight. Seating depth is pretty much fixed at 2.80-2.810". Varget is a damn accurate powder so it is a matter of finding its sweet spot but then again 43.4-44.1 should be the range. Anything below the lower limit you are losing too much velocity and more than the max load you are pushing the semi too hard.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would not sweat it, your results are consistent with my personal observations, although I don't shoot Federal Factory much, and personally my factory groups tend to be a bit better... this is what I have seen.

Personally I average about 1/2" with the OBR and 3/8"s with my POFs, I feel you presented the facts in a way that others would call foul if someone like myself was to do the same thing. In fact i posted a pix of me shooting an OBR on FB and a LT Fanboy immediately called me out for finally shooting one. Forget I have shot them here and there since they were introduced.

Lots of unbiased tests, but the perception is what clouds the results. You have no preconceived perception problems. That is what makes this work as well as it does.

Thanks,

PS, I think you need to post it over on AR15.
smile.gif
Just by an fire suit, and avoid your bar. </div></div>

Thanks Frank. I really have no bias towards either. And really deep down inside i wanted the OBR to do better so i can get one if that makes any sense in a sick way but it just didnt happen that way. I would not be upset owning either one. The fact that the POF is piston and keeps inside so much cleaner is an advantage though
smile.gif
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Thanks for this! I have a POF 16" that I have come to love. I did not love it at first because I could not print the groups like you did but could with my Mega Maten. It took a few hundred rounds to really break in and an upgrade to the two stage Geisselle finally did it. The POF is a fine rifle and I wonder why the fanboys rip it so badly.

To add I also handload my own precision ammo and I have found 42.5g of Varget to be the happy place for my rifle under a 168g Hornady A-Max. I have a friend who has an LWRC REPR that is trying some of my rounds so it will be interesting to see how well it shoots. I'm sure just as good as the POF and OBR. Another great performer for me is the 208 A-Max especially when your really going long. The wind resistence of this bullet is amazing.

Thanks again for writing up your test.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Did you notice any discernible difference in recoil between the two?
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you notice any discernible difference in recoil between the two? </div></div>

The way they are both setup they way within an ounce of each other believe it or not. And they both have a dual port muzzle brake. To me they both had very little recoil. I have an Atlas bipod on mine which i can load better than the Harris on his.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

That's a great comparison, Alpha. Thanks for posting the results as I've always wondered how the POF would fare against the OBR.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I drink occasionally. That is for my guests
smile.gif
</div></div>

Can I come over?
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Nice job Alpha. I thought the OBR and the GAP were the standard for which to judge all others. I looks like I need to give POF a second look. Thank you!
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Good comparison Alpha. Is there any possibility of shooting incrementally out to extended ranges to see how these compare, i.e. 300 to 500 or 600?
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

What barrel does the OBR use? I can't seem to find who makes them. I know POF uses Rock creek blanks, 5R Button rifled and hand lapped, then nitride treated.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sebben</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What barrel does the OBR use? I can't seem to find who makes them. I know POF uses Rock creek blanks, 5R Button rifled and hand lapped, then nitride treated. </div></div>

LW stainless steel
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Nice post with a great write up!

This was pretty much the reason why I went with POF and stayed with them for the .308 platform. Its a GP set up without the verticle groupings of a GP platform. The recoil impulse from the gun is isn't anything to worry about especially when compaired to other .308 semi auto platforms. All in all its a well thought out gun with performance and accuracy in mind.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

I had to go back to the pics twice to find the alcoholic refference. Good review.(I think I've been looking at gun porn too long)
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good comparison Alpha. Is there any possibility of shooting incrementally out to extended ranges to see how these compare, i.e. 300 to 500 or 600? </div></div>

Unfortunately, I am returning Costa's OBR to him tomorrow cause he needs it. But i am taking my POF and shooting groups from 200-800 yards in the next week or so and will definitely post pictures
smile.gif
I have no doubt that both the OBR and POF will perform great. To live in a time and day that we can have a 14.5-16" AR platform 308 that performs like a bolt gun is a dream. I do really believe that the stout barrel on both and the fact that they are short helps these two quite a bit. Even Costa admits that his 16" OBR is more accurate than his 20".
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Did you happen to get any velocities out of these 2 rifles ?
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

jbell, OBR, GAP, POF are all excellent. But I would not say that it is the standard by which all others are judged. You are forgetting some others.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tim3gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you happen to get any velocities out of these 2 rifles ?
</div></div>


I did not chrono the OBR but my POF has spit 175gr SMK over 44.0 Varget at 2425ft/sec which is right in line with most 14.5" 308s. The OBR i am sure will be like 20-30ft/sec faster.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Interesting review.

I notice there are some differences between the two in terms of grips, stocks, bi-pods and whatnot. Are the triggers the same?

I ask, not as an LT fanboy, but as a shooter with a low enough skill level that these changes could very easily make the difference observed in accuracy statistically irrelevant. Couple this with using a borrowed rifle, and I'd probably be all over the place.

Is there any chance that these differences played any role in the results shown down rage?
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Great review! I have been looking at a 14.5 POF and this was very helpful. At their price point ($2600) they look to be the best thing running in the large frame semi-auto world. Thanks again for the great write-up.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FailureToStart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting review.

I notice there are some differences between the two in terms of grips, stocks, bi-pods and whatnot. Are the triggers the same?

I ask, not as an LT fanboy, but as a shooter with a low enough skill level that these changes could very easily make the difference observed in accuracy statistically irrelevant. Couple this with using a borrowed rifle, and I'd probably be all over the place.

Is there any chance that these differences played any role in the results shown down rage? </div></div>


Well they are different rifles with different parts that's why we are comparing them
wink.gif
If we put same stock, trigger , bipod where do we stop? Do we say well they have different barrels and that is why there is a difference? The OBR has the Geissele trigger and the POF has the Timney. If anything the OBR trigger is "supposed" to be better. The Vltor on POF and CTR with cheek pieve on OBR is a wash in my opinion. I do prefer the Atlas bipod on my POF vs the costas's Harris but I have a Harris on all my other rifles so have plenty of experience with them.

Either way one rifle shooting 1/2 vs another shooting 3/4 MOA is not a signifiant difference enough at least for me. As I mentioned I may repeat the same test and OBR may shoot 1/2MOA and POF may shoot 3/4. But what is interesting is that with both Federal gold and hand loads the POF shot a little tighter.
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

Alpha,

Excellent review and test procedure...I have neither rifle, but both were in the running when I decided to step up to the .308 semi auto platform two years ago.

I read your write up over and over and it was straight forward and unbiased.

77
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FailureToStart</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Interesting review.</div></div>


Well they are different rifles.</div></div>


Not meant as a knock, or trying to argue one way or the other. I was just curious if you as a shooter felt it was a statistical wash, and if so for what reasons - loaner rifle, different furniture, side of the bed you got out of or whatever.

My OBR groups Factory FGMM (168gr and 175gr) fairly poorly relative to other loads. Mine groups well with 168gr Hornady A-MAX, and better still with Black Hills loaded 180gr Nosler Accubonds. If you get the urge, I'd love to see if you get similar results.

Either way, great review!
grin.gif
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

My understanding of any manufacturing process is that if you take 12 ubrs and 12 pof there will be variance in their accuracy with all other things being equal so the difference you measured here is a wash in my mind.

Now if you sample 12 of each with all other things being equal and found that the accuracy of one including the variance was better than the other I would still say that 12 is a small sample size to make any determination of which is truly better.

Either way in this case 1/4MOA difference at yardage with all the other factors like wind etc...you're in the game with either rifle.

I'm glad you're pleased with the performance of your rifle. The more you shoot it the more you'll get out of it.

 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdr724</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My understanding of any manufacturing process is that if you take 12 ubrs and 12 pof there will be variance in their accuracy with all other things being equal so the difference you measured here is a wash in my mind.

Now if you sample 12 of each with all other things being equal and found that the accuracy of one including the variance was better than the other I would still say that 12 is a small sample size to make any determination of which is truly better.

Either way in this case 1/4MOA difference at yardage with all the other factors like wind etc...you're in the game with either rifle.

I'm glad you're pleased with the performance of your rifle. The more you shoot it the more you'll get out of it.

</div></div>

Not only that, but it was two groups with two kinds of ammo in each rifle. Not very significant. A statistician would draw no conclusions from this test. It shows that both are likely to be acceptably accurate. Remember the 5x5 rule?
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alpha6164</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had a 14.5" 308 POF for about a year and have put less than 50 rounds thru it. I have never really tried to shoot groups with it during this time. I was actually trying to decide whether i should sell the POF and get an OBR. Before dropping some serious coin i decided to do a side by side comparison. I called my good friend Chris Costa and he let me borrow his 16" OBR. He states that he has roughly 200 rounds thru this. He has a 18" as well but i wanted to compare it to the 16".

I figured i make this a two fold test and tested both with Federal Gold 175g factory and my own hand loads which are SMK 175, Varget 44.0g loaded to 2.810". These were loaded using full body size and seated using Redding competition seater.

The ammo was tested blind as in i did not know what i was shooting. My buddy basically loaded the 5 rounds of an unknown ammo (to me) and loaded the rifle. I shot the rifles not knowing whether they had factory or hand loads in them. I could not do a blind test on the rifles since my POF has a NPR-2 reticle and Costa's OBR has the Horus H58.

I did a few dry fire tests and then shot 5 rounds with OBR, then 5 shots with POF, then five shots with OBR and another 5 shots with POF. Each 5 shot group was shot with about 20-30sec between each shot. The rifles each got about a 15 min cool down between each 5 shot group. My friend revealed after all 4 groups were shot which were the factory rounds and which were my hand loads. All shots were shot prone, from bipod and sand bag in the rear.




OBR Federal Gold 175

C6E3129D-1FCB-49D1-A1C1-7B32FEECE815-3321-000003552ABAF81D.jpg











POF Federal Gold 175


042EA86C-A97B-486E-895B-BFD315D441C1-3321-00000355264BC02E.jpg















OBR 16" hand loads

2DD233DE-7E30-4AF3-8561-2CFA7E8A3217-3321-0000035521AFF303.jpg












POF 14.5" hand loads

F324A97F-B171-4DA3-AD1E-C41B3E11C276-3321-000003551AF42C6F.jpg






I guess what surprised me is the deviation between factory match and my hand loads. It is almost undisputable that both OBR and POF shot significantly better with the hand loads. The POF and OBR shot really well and were hammers. The POF really impressed me keeping a sub 1/2MOA group. The OBR was right there.

This is not to say that the POF is better or more accurate than OBR. I am sure i can do this test three other times and we might have even closer results. Neither had any hiccups and are absolute hammers. I measured both barrel profiles and at the muzzle and the OBR is 0.75" and POF is 0.78" so pretty much identical.




Here they are side by side:




A66E7FE3-04FA-4ED5-A03C-E9FA9DC2D081-3321-000003553A91715A.jpg

F2635D67-85D9-43FD-BD0C-76D1F6337165-3321-0000035534D06901.jpg

9D823918-7340-4BAB-BCFF-56BC2604D855-3321-000003552F646F95.jpg







</div></div>

You can't go wrong with either weapon system.
They are both quality semi-auto products that the market has available
It's great to be an American and have quality products to choose from.
By the way you did a very fair and balanced post, which is very rare to see.
Best regards,

Frank L. DeSomma
President
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc.
www.POF-USA.com
[email protected]
602-451-1033 cell
623-561-9572 work
 
Re: Chris Costa's OBR vs my POF Fed match & handloads!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: POF-USA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't go wrong with either weapon system.
They are both quality semi-auto products that the market has available
It's great to be an American and have quality products to choose from.
By the way you did a very fair and balanced post, which is very rare to see.
Best regards,

Frank L. DeSomma
President
Patriot Ordnance Factory, Inc.
www.POF-USA.com
[email protected]
602-451-1033 cell
623-561-9572 work </div></div>

Now that's a compliment... lol