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Re: Offhand Feet Placement
The feet need to be 90 degrees fromt the target, maybe a tad bit more, but no less then 90 degrees.
Comfortable width apart.
As taught bye the AMU and CMP plus Gary Anderson who a long time ago set the ISU Offhand record that has yet been broken.
Actually that idea goes back farther then mentioned. Cpt Eward Lewis pushed it in his book Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting that came out just after WWI.
The feet need to be 90 degrees fromt the target, maybe a tad bit more, but no less then 90 degrees.
Comfortable width apart.
As taught bye the AMU and CMP plus Gary Anderson who a long time ago set the ISU Offhand record that has yet been broken.
Actually that idea goes back farther then mentioned. Cpt Eward Lewis pushed it in his book Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting that came out just after WWI.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
Pay attention to your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) first, and you'll find out where the feet need to be. Close your eyes and mount the rifle naturally into position. Open your eyes <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">without moving the rifle</span></span>, and see where it's pointing. From that point, adjust your feet to bring the rifle naturally on target, without muscling or moving the rifle from where it "wants" to point. It may take a time or two of repeating this process, but you should get to a position where the rifle's pointing naturally at the target, without muscular tension or "pushing" it one way or the other. That's your NPA. Now take a look at where your feet are, and remember that position. This needs to be done every time you establish an offhand position, but after doing it a few times, it'll come pretty quickly to you. It'll just start to feel "right" at some point.
That should give you your windage, or deflection. If you need to adjust the elevation, you can do that with your supporting hand placement by moving it in or out a bit. The critical thing for both is that you aren't forcing the rifle in any way, and just allowing it to point as naturally as it can. That, and a good follow through will go a long way towards making yo a proficent offhand shooter. If you REALLY want to master offhand, take a look at Silhouette shooting. No better way to get you on track for being a hard-holding offhand shooter than silhouette.
Pay attention to your Natural Point of Aim (NPA) first, and you'll find out where the feet need to be. Close your eyes and mount the rifle naturally into position. Open your eyes <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">without moving the rifle</span></span>, and see where it's pointing. From that point, adjust your feet to bring the rifle naturally on target, without muscling or moving the rifle from where it "wants" to point. It may take a time or two of repeating this process, but you should get to a position where the rifle's pointing naturally at the target, without muscular tension or "pushing" it one way or the other. That's your NPA. Now take a look at where your feet are, and remember that position. This needs to be done every time you establish an offhand position, but after doing it a few times, it'll come pretty quickly to you. It'll just start to feel "right" at some point.
That should give you your windage, or deflection. If you need to adjust the elevation, you can do that with your supporting hand placement by moving it in or out a bit. The critical thing for both is that you aren't forcing the rifle in any way, and just allowing it to point as naturally as it can. That, and a good follow through will go a long way towards making yo a proficent offhand shooter. If you REALLY want to master offhand, take a look at Silhouette shooting. No better way to get you on track for being a hard-holding offhand shooter than silhouette.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
My feet are perpendicular to the target, slightly inboard, shoulder width apart, and I have quite a bit of twist in my lower back. Here is a good article on the subject:
http://www.odcmp.org/1007/default.asp?page=USAMU_STANDING
My feet are perpendicular to the target, slightly inboard, shoulder width apart, and I have quite a bit of twist in my lower back. Here is a good article on the subject:
http://www.odcmp.org/1007/default.asp?page=USAMU_STANDING
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info
USMC mustang strange looking non-firing hand position, do you use this?
</div></div>
I don't see it any differently than others have advised, with one exception, my initial foot placement will very likely not be where my feet are placed as I execute the firing tasks. With feet perpendicular to target and about shoulder width apart I will balance my weight equally on balls of feet. From there, I will shoulder the rifle cognisant of the five factors of a steady position but without any consideration for the target. That's to say, I will not look at the target while building the position. This better assures NPA will be somewhere off the target, making adjustment of NPA for desired sight picture complement my brain's desire to realize a sight picture stored in my memory. It's while adjusting NPA that my feet will move, as only by moving my feet can I adjust NPA without muscling the gun.
After calling the shot, I can conclude if I was patient or perhaps too hasty building the position; but, no doubt, unless the sight settles down to wobble within the nine ring, I will likely rebuild the position, meaning I will make minor adjustment to my feet and perhaps even my toes. Since this takes time, practice in the standing position to develop muscle memory, as well as stamina is a way to hasten success.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info
USMC mustang strange looking non-firing hand position, do you use this?
</div></div>
I don't see it any differently than others have advised, with one exception, my initial foot placement will very likely not be where my feet are placed as I execute the firing tasks. With feet perpendicular to target and about shoulder width apart I will balance my weight equally on balls of feet. From there, I will shoulder the rifle cognisant of the five factors of a steady position but without any consideration for the target. That's to say, I will not look at the target while building the position. This better assures NPA will be somewhere off the target, making adjustment of NPA for desired sight picture complement my brain's desire to realize a sight picture stored in my memory. It's while adjusting NPA that my feet will move, as only by moving my feet can I adjust NPA without muscling the gun.
After calling the shot, I can conclude if I was patient or perhaps too hasty building the position; but, no doubt, unless the sight settles down to wobble within the nine ring, I will likely rebuild the position, meaning I will make minor adjustment to my feet and perhaps even my toes. Since this takes time, practice in the standing position to develop muscle memory, as well as stamina is a way to hasten success.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info
USMC mustang strange looking non-firing hand position, do you use this?
</div></div>
I assume you are talking what is pictured in the USAMU article. Yes, I do use this type of position for my non-firing hand when shooting an AR in NRA Service Rifle competition. My palm faces towards me with the delta ring of my rifle sitting between my thumb and index finger. This gives me the proper height to acquire the sights as I keep my head very erect. Only the very bottom of the toe of the buttstock is touching my shooting coat. Others may put their palm the other way, rest the rifle on their finger tips, etc., but this is what works for me.
I curl my fingers in fairly tight, but relaxed, in order to prevent them from interfering with the ejection of the spent brass. I'm a right handed shooter, the weight of the rifle is supported by the bones in my left arm pushing against my torso. This bone support is very important as my rifle weighs almost 16 pounds and if I tried to utilize muscles to support the rifle I would tire fairly quickly, particularly when shooting 22 rounds in a typical XTC competition.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info
USMC mustang strange looking non-firing hand position, do you use this?
</div></div>
I assume you are talking what is pictured in the USAMU article. Yes, I do use this type of position for my non-firing hand when shooting an AR in NRA Service Rifle competition. My palm faces towards me with the delta ring of my rifle sitting between my thumb and index finger. This gives me the proper height to acquire the sights as I keep my head very erect. Only the very bottom of the toe of the buttstock is touching my shooting coat. Others may put their palm the other way, rest the rifle on their finger tips, etc., but this is what works for me.
I curl my fingers in fairly tight, but relaxed, in order to prevent them from interfering with the ejection of the spent brass. I'm a right handed shooter, the weight of the rifle is supported by the bones in my left arm pushing against my torso. This bone support is very important as my rifle weighs almost 16 pounds and if I tried to utilize muscles to support the rifle I would tire fairly quickly, particularly when shooting 22 rounds in a typical XTC competition.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
I'd like to add a bit on the weight of the rifle.
We all know you want bone support, not muscles.
If you stand 90 degrees from the target, and you have the body shape, you can effectively rest the weight on your chest. It takes a good solid position, but if you can pull it off, you'll get a steadier position.
I'd like to add a bit on the weight of the rifle.
We all know you want bone support, not muscles.
If you stand 90 degrees from the target, and you have the body shape, you can effectively rest the weight on your chest. It takes a good solid position, but if you can pull it off, you'll get a steadier position.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
Heels should be on a plane parallel with the flight of the bullet to the center of the target as a base location for your position with your feet perpendicular to the flight of the bullet. This is called a "closed" position. Your belly button is pointing perpendicular to the flight of the bullet. Your hips are parallel to the flight of the bullet.
In this vid, I talk about the closed versus open position and show graphically the effect on the hold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMuqA9qFr...mp;feature=plcp
Towards the end of this vid the closed position is very well shown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IXZBJHIV-o
Hard to see in this pic, but my right heel is just about an inch forward of my left heel. The shoulders are NOT parallel to the hips; there is a compound twist to the upper body. The shoulders turn away from the hips, opening the chest towards the target, slide BACK away from the target, and BACK behind the buttocks, putting the rifle weight in a plane that is right over or slightly behind the center of your feet.
Heels should be on a plane parallel with the flight of the bullet to the center of the target as a base location for your position with your feet perpendicular to the flight of the bullet. This is called a "closed" position. Your belly button is pointing perpendicular to the flight of the bullet. Your hips are parallel to the flight of the bullet.
In this vid, I talk about the closed versus open position and show graphically the effect on the hold.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMuqA9qFr...mp;feature=plcp
Towards the end of this vid the closed position is very well shown.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IXZBJHIV-o
Hard to see in this pic, but my right heel is just about an inch forward of my left heel. The shoulders are NOT parallel to the hips; there is a compound twist to the upper body. The shoulders turn away from the hips, opening the chest towards the target, slide BACK away from the target, and BACK behind the buttocks, putting the rifle weight in a plane that is right over or slightly behind the center of your feet.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
I have been told in the standing position there should be a straight line of support from rifle down to the elbow, to the hip, to middle of the front foot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The shoulders are NOT parallel to the hips; there is a compound twist to the upper body. The shoulders turn away from the hips, opening the chest towards the target.
</div></div>
Is this considered par excellence for the standing position?
I have been told in the standing position there should be a straight line of support from rifle down to the elbow, to the hip, to middle of the front foot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The shoulders are NOT parallel to the hips; there is a compound twist to the upper body. The shoulders turn away from the hips, opening the chest towards the target.
</div></div>
Is this considered par excellence for the standing position?
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
For a "real" precision target offhand position, YES.
The reality of the "tactical" shooting positions for offhand generally use a lot more muscle and compromise from the "real" position.
Both of those things said, understanding the fundamentals of the "real" position, being able to execute them, and adapt them to the "tactical" environment will probably net you better results than just throwing it up, holding it, and hoping for good results.
Here is the "real" position adapted to the tactical game. We had a 10 target engagement from 320 to 470 yards in a 45 or so degree fan - 5 standing, then the same 5 targets again from any position (prone worked) and a 2 minute max time. 17 lb. rifle w/ AICS 1.5 stock.
(photo credit Zak Smith)
Here is a pic that shows the barrel and the hips on the same plane. To the point of the OP, while you can't see the feet, you can imagine that they are straight below the legs in this pic and at 90 degrees to the muzzle. Shawn has less shoulder turn in order to keep the grip off his chest than me. His service rifle weighs more than the bolt gun I am firing in the pic above - he's up to about 21 pounds these days.
For a "real" precision target offhand position, YES.
The reality of the "tactical" shooting positions for offhand generally use a lot more muscle and compromise from the "real" position.
Both of those things said, understanding the fundamentals of the "real" position, being able to execute them, and adapt them to the "tactical" environment will probably net you better results than just throwing it up, holding it, and hoping for good results.
Here is the "real" position adapted to the tactical game. We had a 10 target engagement from 320 to 470 yards in a 45 or so degree fan - 5 standing, then the same 5 targets again from any position (prone worked) and a 2 minute max time. 17 lb. rifle w/ AICS 1.5 stock.
(photo credit Zak Smith)
Here is a pic that shows the barrel and the hips on the same plane. To the point of the OP, while you can't see the feet, you can imagine that they are straight below the legs in this pic and at 90 degrees to the muzzle. Shawn has less shoulder turn in order to keep the grip off his chest than me. His service rifle weighs more than the bolt gun I am firing in the pic above - he's up to about 21 pounds these days.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
Very very nice!
Is there any advantage to your non-firing hand position?
I have my thumb on the other side with the rifle fore end resting between the v formed between my thumb and forefinger.
Do you also twist the upper body in the kneeling position?
I was told that in the kneeling position the shoulder and hips are aligned and to avoid twisting the torso.
Cheers
Very very nice!
Is there any advantage to your non-firing hand position?
I have my thumb on the other side with the rifle fore end resting between the v formed between my thumb and forefinger.
Do you also twist the upper body in the kneeling position?
I was told that in the kneeling position the shoulder and hips are aligned and to avoid twisting the torso.
Cheers
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you also twist the upper body in the kneeling position?
I was told that in the kneeling position the shoulder and hips are aligned and to avoid twisting the torso</div></div>
You were told right.
The back should be positioned so that the weight is supported by the kneeling roll or back foot.
The spine is not tilted as that would give you an unsteady position.
Also, I've noticed that twisting the upper body requires unneeded muscling, which screws up followthrough.
The muscles naturally want to relax after you release the shot causing you to pull the rifle off the targt.
I think the kneeling position is far too often neglected in practice, yet we use it all the time, such as in hunting.
I'd like to see Hiph Power do away with the setting postition and repace it with the kneeling.
Altough setting rapid is my best shooting, its not practical.
I mean, who in combat, hunting, or any other practical shooting uses the setting position. (except me in antelope hunting).
I say this even knowing I suck in that postition. I just don't practice it any more since I stopped shooting ISU.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you also twist the upper body in the kneeling position?
I was told that in the kneeling position the shoulder and hips are aligned and to avoid twisting the torso</div></div>
You were told right.
The back should be positioned so that the weight is supported by the kneeling roll or back foot.
The spine is not tilted as that would give you an unsteady position.
Also, I've noticed that twisting the upper body requires unneeded muscling, which screws up followthrough.
The muscles naturally want to relax after you release the shot causing you to pull the rifle off the targt.
I think the kneeling position is far too often neglected in practice, yet we use it all the time, such as in hunting.
I'd like to see Hiph Power do away with the setting postition and repace it with the kneeling.
Altough setting rapid is my best shooting, its not practical.
I mean, who in combat, hunting, or any other practical shooting uses the setting position. (except me in antelope hunting).
I say this even knowing I suck in that postition. I just don't practice it any more since I stopped shooting ISU.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very very nice!
Is there any advantage to your non-firing hand position?
I have my thumb on the other side with the rifle fore end resting between the v formed between my thumb and forefinger.
Do you also twist the upper body in the kneeling position?
I was told that in the kneeling position the shoulder and hips are aligned and to avoid twisting the torso.
Cheers
</div></div>
Here is a kneeling tutorial. You can draw your own conclusions about torso twist.
Bob believes the shoulders should be very square towards the target, much like a good prone position, which means a shorter buttstock on the rifle. The same 5 to 15 degrees of shoulder angle off of the 90 perpendicular to the flight of the bullet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbELUAFWs-0&feature=plcp
Oh and on the non-firing hand position, it has to do with vertical NPA as well as windage NPA, accounting for the specific ergos/shape of the rifle as well. The pic above I have my hand in front of the magazine, then laid back to get the rifle more in line w my hips, while resting my tricep on my chest, all in an effort to get a relaxed left arm that gave me a true vertical NPA (along with the rest of the body).
Generally you want the off hand forearm to be as vertical as possible, and the rifle coming straight down on that vertical pillar, though rifles not made for this will force a compromise of some sort like shown above.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Very very nice!
Is there any advantage to your non-firing hand position?
I have my thumb on the other side with the rifle fore end resting between the v formed between my thumb and forefinger.
Do you also twist the upper body in the kneeling position?
I was told that in the kneeling position the shoulder and hips are aligned and to avoid twisting the torso.
Cheers
</div></div>
Here is a kneeling tutorial. You can draw your own conclusions about torso twist.
Bob believes the shoulders should be very square towards the target, much like a good prone position, which means a shorter buttstock on the rifle. The same 5 to 15 degrees of shoulder angle off of the 90 perpendicular to the flight of the bullet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbELUAFWs-0&feature=plcp
Oh and on the non-firing hand position, it has to do with vertical NPA as well as windage NPA, accounting for the specific ergos/shape of the rifle as well. The pic above I have my hand in front of the magazine, then laid back to get the rifle more in line w my hips, while resting my tricep on my chest, all in an effort to get a relaxed left arm that gave me a true vertical NPA (along with the rest of the body).
Generally you want the off hand forearm to be as vertical as possible, and the rifle coming straight down on that vertical pillar, though rifles not made for this will force a compromise of some sort like shown above.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
Bob does not do sitting
Honestly position shooting has so much to do with body dimensions, the adjustability of your rifle, and the time you have to prepare for a shot.
I'll keep pressing on the same point - learn the fundamentals/structures of the "real" positions, then apply them as best you can to your tactical shooting/equipment.
- avoid muscle tension
- "stack" things on top of each other
- verify NPA so that you are not muscling the shot to your point of aim
- execute a good trigger squeeze/hold through within your hold, whatever it is, as snatching the shot will most likely push the shot OUTSIDE of your hold area
Bob does not do sitting
Honestly position shooting has so much to do with body dimensions, the adjustability of your rifle, and the time you have to prepare for a shot.
I'll keep pressing on the same point - learn the fundamentals/structures of the "real" positions, then apply them as best you can to your tactical shooting/equipment.
- avoid muscle tension
- "stack" things on top of each other
- verify NPA so that you are not muscling the shot to your point of aim
- execute a good trigger squeeze/hold through within your hold, whatever it is, as snatching the shot will most likely push the shot OUTSIDE of your hold area
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob does not do sitting
Honestly position shooting has so much to do with body dimensions, the adjustability of your rifle, and the time you have to prepare for a shot.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">I'll keep pressing on the same point</span> - learn the fundamentals/structures of the "real" positions, then apply them as best you can to your tactical shooting/equipment.
- avoid muscle tension
- "stack" things on top of each other
- verify NPA so that you are not muscling the shot to your point of aim
- execute a good trigger squeeze/hold through within your hold, whatever it is, as snatching the shot will most likely push the shot OUTSIDE of your hold area
</div></div>
You mean there is not shortcut ?
I can't just buy a rifle with an adjustable stock and succeed ?
Do I really need to practice or can I just look at the pictures online ?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob does not do sitting
Honestly position shooting has so much to do with body dimensions, the adjustability of your rifle, and the time you have to prepare for a shot.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">I'll keep pressing on the same point</span> - learn the fundamentals/structures of the "real" positions, then apply them as best you can to your tactical shooting/equipment.
- avoid muscle tension
- "stack" things on top of each other
- verify NPA so that you are not muscling the shot to your point of aim
- execute a good trigger squeeze/hold through within your hold, whatever it is, as snatching the shot will most likely push the shot OUTSIDE of your hold area
</div></div>
You mean there is not shortcut ?
I can't just buy a rifle with an adjustable stock and succeed ?
Do I really need to practice or can I just look at the pictures online ?
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mean there is not shortcut ?
I can't just buy a rifle with an adjustable stock and succeed ? </div></div>Not without a Magpul video.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You mean there is not shortcut ?
I can't just buy a rifle with an adjustable stock and succeed ? </div></div>Not without a Magpul video.
Re: Offhand Feet Placement
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> learn the fundamentals/structures of the "real" positions, then apply them as best you can to your tactical shooting/equipment.
- avoid muscle tension
- "stack" things on top of each other
- verify NPA so that you are not muscling the shot to your point of aim
- execute a good trigger squeeze/hold through within your hold, whatever it is, as snatching the shot will most likely push the shot OUTSIDE of your hold area</div></div>
Marksmanship fundamentals in a Nutshell
Well put
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> learn the fundamentals/structures of the "real" positions, then apply them as best you can to your tactical shooting/equipment.
- avoid muscle tension
- "stack" things on top of each other
- verify NPA so that you are not muscling the shot to your point of aim
- execute a good trigger squeeze/hold through within your hold, whatever it is, as snatching the shot will most likely push the shot OUTSIDE of your hold area</div></div>
Marksmanship fundamentals in a Nutshell
Well put
