Double tapping (the bad way)

[jwsnydes]

So recently, I've had an issue I never faced before in around 12 years of rifle shooting. I have started accidentally double tapping my LR-308 Mega Arms build.

I've had the same trigger in it the whole time, and the only change has been a new Harris bipod.

I have a Wilson Tactical TTU 3-Gun trigger, it is (3.5 lbs) i think. I haven't really had issues like this before in the last year of owning it.

Is that just too light for a 308? Since it is self contained can I alter it to be a touch heavier? I love the feel of the trigger.

Any thoughts would be really helpful.

 

[tsavo303]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

the rocking on the bipod sounds like the change
can you keep the trigger pressed, and not let it reset till the recoil has settled if you try?

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

I was trying to load the bipod to fix this. I have been playing around with trying to hold the trigger down and releasing out to reset but it wasn't foolproof.

I guess I wanted to see if anyone was going to say, NO WAY, that is way too light for a 308. A local gunsmith told me that, and I'm not 100% sure he knows what he's talking about in this specific issue. Looking for more input.

 

[RotARy15]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

3.5 pounds is nowhere near too light.

Are you sure you don't have a trigger issue in which the disconnector isn't working?

 

[ORD]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

The bipod seems like part of the problem (not loading it properly or otherwise allowing it to "hop" around on recoil causing you to inadvertently bump the trigger and discharge the rifle.

The other problem is one of trigger control with your semi-auto. I'm not going to try to give a complete lesson in semi-auto trigger manipulation, but generally speaking, when you squeeze the trigger and fire the rifle, keep the trigger pulled rearward until the rifle is done doing its thing. Then, let off slowly just enough to allow the trigger to reset.

Also, if you haven't received any specific training on trigger control with a semi-auto, you might sign up for the online training and find the video covering this topic in detail. There is also a "clip" from that video (I think) floating around that covers trigger manipulation briefly that may give you a better idea of what I'm talking about as it isn't the simplest thing to explain and there is a LOT more to trigger control than just that.

As for the trigger being too light...I don't necessarily buy that explanation unless it isn't the trigger pull itself. That trigger has a VERY short reset which when combined with not the best trigger control and the bipod hop may be further causing you problems. Also, don't underestimate that the trigger itself could be malfunctioning...might be worth a swap to find out if you have a back-up trigger handy.

Good luck!!

 

[dang472]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

My guy over at Rock River Arms adjusted my trigger down to 3lbs. on my LAR8 308. He said that's the lightest he could do without double tapping or worse. I didn't fully grasp why but I assume tweaking the stock springs too much would keep the disconnector from latching.

 

[Ghillie Zen]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">when you squeeze the trigger and fire the rifle, keep the trigger pulled rearward until the rifle is done doing its thing. Then, let off slowly just enough to allow the trigger to reset. </div></div>

this^^^^

Plus, depending on how you load your bipod, it could be contributing as well. I see a lot of guys using their bipods on benches or on smooth surfaces without any point to set the feet into, then when they fire, their rigs bounce all over the place which could indeed cause a double tap.

 

[TGagnon]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

If I don't use proper follow through on my M1A it doubles very easily. Can do it on command if I pay attention even and I have thought about doing it one day on a hog up close as the two rounds usually hit within 3 inches when it doubles at the 50 yardline.

 

[pby5cat]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

Does the gun pass a hammer fall test?

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pby5cat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does the gun pass a hammer fall test? </div></div>

I took it to a gunsmith and he shot it and said it functions. After a 2 month wait for him to get to it, it looks like he shot it twice.

 

[Graham]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

Hold the rifle firmly into the shoulder and hold the trigger back during follow-through, resetting it only after all recoil pulses are over.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

I understand that if I were to strongly pull the trigger and press it firmly against the rear, waiting to reset, it would work. But I have shot with a style of trigger pull where I slowly break the trigger, my whole life, and am hoping to not have to tightly hold the trigger to avoid double tapping. When I do that, I am far more likely to yank the rifle off target.

 

[Graham]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JW Snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that if I were to strongly pull the trigger and press it firmly against the rear, waiting to reset, it would work. But I have shot with a style of trigger pull where I slowly break the trigger, my whole life, and am hoping to not have to tightly hold the trigger to avoid double tapping. When I do that, I am far more likely to yank the rifle off target. </div></div>What you are describing is slapping the trigger. There is no need to quickly pull the trigger to the rear, simply hold the reset until recoil is over.

 

[ORD]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you are describing is slapping the trigger. There is no need to quickly pull the trigger to the rear, simply hold the reset until recoil is over. </div></div>

If you don't want to do it the right way (arguable...yes...at least the way that we're suggesting to you)...then don't, but the advice that Graham, I and others have given you is proven. It works and works well for accurate, controlled fire with a semi-auto rifle. Between your bipod hopping around, you being at least somewhat sloppy on the trigger, and having a lighter (but not too light) trigger pull with a very short reset, doing it your way is highly likely to cause you doubling problems and I don't see any "quick fix" that will let you keep doing it "your way" without further problems.

We are NOT urging you to manhandle the rifle to the point of yanking it off target. You simply need to get behind the rifle properly, firmly seat the rifle into your shoulder, and maintain rearward pressure on the trigger until the rifle has fired, recoiled and finished cycling/chambering the next round. With a 3.5lb pull, to hold the trigger back during all that doesn't take anywhere near the amount of force you are talking about that it should cause you to jerk the rifle off target. It isn't always easy to beat years of muscle memory (albeit it BAD muscle memory) out of your head/body, but doing it the way we're suggesting should resolve your problems and ultimately, make you a better shooter with your rifle.

 

[bcpdshooter]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

This discribed method of trigger pull that everyone is suggesting is how I shoot ever gun I own, handguns to shotguns to rifles. As of this date it is the most accurate method I have found. When firing semi autos there is no way the gun will fire again until the trigger is reset if the trigger group is working properly.
With what you are discribing it sounds like you are having a bump fire issue due to the preload on the bipod and the rifle under recoil.
This is still the same thing that many others have explained.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

Thanks for the tips guys.

I'l glad to know that it is a technique issue or at worst a bad mix of my technique and the prone position shooting on that bipod, which I have never done before. I've never had this issue with any other gun and I shoot all of them the same way. I'll let you know what happens when I get out next.

 

[Ajax2112]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bipod seems like part of the problem (not loading it properly or otherwise allowing it to "hop" around on recoil causing you to inadvertently bump the trigger and discharge the rifle.

The other problem is one of trigger control with your semi-auto. I'm not going to try to give a complete lesson in semi-auto trigger manipulation, but generally speaking, when you squeeze the trigger and fire the rifle, keep the trigger pulled rearward until the rifle is done doing its thing. Then, let off slowly just enough to allow the trigger to reset.

Also, if you haven't received any specific training on trigger control with a semi-auto, you might sign up for the online training and find the video covering this topic in detail. There is also a "clip" from that video (I think) floating around that covers trigger manipulation briefly that may give you a better idea of what I'm talking about as it isn't the simplest thing to explain and there is a LOT more to trigger control than just that.

As for the trigger being too light...I don't necessarily buy that explanation unless it isn't the trigger pull itself. <span style="font-weight: bold">That trigger has a VERY short reset which when combined with not the best trigger control and the bipod hop may be further causing you problems.</span> Also, don't underestimate that the trigger itself could be malfunctioning...might be worth a swap to find out if you have a back-up trigger handy.

Good luck!! </div></div>

The Wilson Combat trigger 3gun has an extreme short reset and lightened trigger pull. What your essentially doing is creating a bump fire scenario.

3gun triggers are not designed to be used with bipods. This is taken from Gieselles description of their 3gun trigger "We do not recommend it for duty use, bench rest, accuracy work or shooting small groups.

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ajax2112</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The Wilson Combat trigger 3gun has an extreme short reset and lightened trigger pull. What your essentially doing is creating a bump fire scenario. </div></div>

It is a very short reset, That should have been part of my original question. I feel bad taking the trigger off of my 4K build and putting it on the only other AR I own, a sig m400.

 

[Ajax2112]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

You could always sell it and use the money to fund a replacement or you can use that trigger as an excuse to build a whole other rifle around it.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

JW, I suggest sticking with a two stage trigger on a semi-308.

However after reading your comments I do believe you may be having a technique issue. If you are not "pinning the trigger" on after the shot when you combine this with a little flinch it's very easy to see how you may be causing a double.

Experienced shooters use proper follow through even when shooting extremely fast. You don't get faster by slapping the trigger fast.

 

[Rprecision]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

I tried a Wilson TTU in the 3.5 rating in their duty version.

I have never had any problem doubling before. After firing I would slowly release the triger to engage the disconecter. As soon as it would engauge it would double. There was a flaw in the TTU and it went back to brownells (Great Warranty!)Now if I quickly slaped through this area it would not do it.

As for being a problem for just me, it did it to other folks too. I have no love for the TTU.

Food for thought

 

[jwsnydes]

Re: Double tapping (the bad way)

Update:

We got out and shot at 900 yards yesterday, this was the first time I shot with a can on, and still used the same bipod setup that was giving me trouble. I had zero double taps in 40 rounds of shooting. I feel like this short reset trigger is just something that I'm going to have to get used to, as really concentrated on trigger work this time.

When it works (like it is now) it works great. I hit a clay pigeon at a 1/2 mile. I'll take that.