A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

[Pbailey]

I've been doing quite a bit of searching the web, looking for a short barreled .284 Win, but it looks like it is not such a popular build! From what I have read, there is lots of discussion saying that a 20" (or so) barreled rifle in 284 Win is not efficient. I have no experience with the caliber, but it sounds like you need a longer barrel to really use the case to its fullest capacity.

This winter I built a heavy .260 that is great for long range, but I am thinking of building a gun that is a little more carry friendly. I was looking at the .284 Win for being able to push a little heavier projectile and pack a little more punch, but what do you guys think? Will the 7mm-08 perform better in a short barrel? Everything I have read says the .284 outdoes the 7mm-08 in a long barrel, but is it the same for a short barrel?

This rifle will be used for hunting. Mostly deer, antelope, and I guess elk is a possibility. Max hunting range of 600, and probably play with targets up to 1000.

Thanks!

 

[Graham]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

My .284 finished at 25 1/4". I compete with it, but I can only get 180s safely and accurately to a bit over 2800fps. That's all the velocity I need with a .735BC bullet, but I don't see the point of going any shorter.

If you want to go short, do a 7-08 and shoot lighter bullets.

 

[pyplynr]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Quickload is showing a .284 using the 168gr Berger and 53gr of 4831sc @ 2659fps with a 20" barrel.

 

[Gray]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

7mm-08AI with 162 AMAX at 22" would be nice

 

[KYS]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyplynr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quickload is showing a .284 using the 168gr Berger and 53gr of 4831sc @ 2659fps with a 20" barrel. </div></div>

At those speeds why even have a 284?
When you jump into some of these calibers you are going to have to just suck it up and go with that longer barrel.

 

[pyplynr]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pyplynr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quickload is showing a .284 using the 168gr Berger and 53gr of 4831sc @ 2659fps with a 20" barrel. </div></div>

At those speeds why even have a 284?
When you jump into some of these calibers you are going to have to just suck it up and go with that longer barrel. </div></div>

My thoughts exactly. BTW OP, I'm running a 28" barrel on my 284. I really wouldn't go any shorter than 24" on this caliber personally.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Ok, so here is the deal. There is no magic caliber nor special powder that handles shorter barrels any better than any other. When you cut inches off of barrels you lose velocity regardless of caliber.

Lots of people like some of the above will say "if you want to shoot X caliber you have to have at least X number of inches". No, you don't. You can shoot that 284 in what ever barrel length you choose, but more or less you will loose 15-30 fps per inch you cut off. Also, the shorter you go, the louder it gets.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is the perfect example. So many people say that the Creedmoor needs at least 24" or you may as well not do it. Well I did.

I have a 26" CM that runs 140s at 2800.
I also have a 22" CM that runs the same load at 2720.
I even have a 16" CM that runs the same load at 2616.

There is absolutely no difference in the accuracy at 100 yards between the three. Down range, obviously the 16" suffers more elevation and windage, but it still kicks the hell out of a 26" 308 Winchester due to ballistic superiority. Why did I do it? Because I wanted a shorter, lighter, handier rifle for carry and long shots. It works perfect!

Another way to look at this same thing is this. These numbers are in no way exactly the velocity that you will expect to see, I'm just using it as an example.

A 28" 308 Winchester shooting the same weight bullet will more or less have the same velocity as a 22-24" 30-06, and the same velocity as a 16-18" 300 Win mag. It's just what you want the rifle for, and lots of companies are realizing people desire a shorter, handier, lighter rifle. Look at DTA. They offer an 18" 300 Win mag, and a 18" 338 LM.

It's all in what you want the rifle for. I am guessing at the numbers because there are so many variables to consider (specific barrel velocities, reamer used, ect), but you will probably have equal velocity from a 20" 284 to a 24-28" 7-08.

If that is what you want, go for it, but don't expect 28" velocities from a 20" barrel.

Ty

 

[E. Bryant]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Big charges of slow-burning powder need plenty of bore volume to expand through if maximum efficiency is to be achieved. "Overbore" cartridges are more likely to lose substantial velocity to short barrels, which is why there are a lot more people doing shorty .308s than .284s.

There isn't a magic minimum length for a given cartridge, though. It just comes down to making the best compromise for the user.

 

[Scotch_egg]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Ty,

Your 16" figures are awesome. I have been waiting for real world experience of the short barrelled CM

 

[santee116]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

This guys website has a bunch of good info http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledge+Base/.284+Winchester.html

"From the 22” barreled model 88 and 100 rifles, typical velocities include 3200fps with 120 grain bullets, 3000fps with 140’s, 2900fps with 150 grain bullets and 2750fps to 2800fps with 160 grain bullets.

Custom rifles with long COAL’s featuring 24-26” barrels are able to produce velocities of up to 3100fps with 140 grain bullets, 3000fps with 150 grain bullets, 2900fps with 160-162 grain bullets and 2700fps with the long 180 grain VLD."

I'm thinking of building a hunting rig in .284 with my Stiller long action and a 22" barrel. I am hoping, even with a 22" barrel that I could get 3050-3100 with the 140 class bullet. Would be awesome for hunting. If I could get 2800-2850 with the 162 amax to play on the range with that would be sweet. We'll see how it goes.

I have read posts from Jared Joplin of APA here on the hide about his hunting .284. He reports getting 2875 from his 24" barreled hunting rig with the 162 amax.

 

[turbo54]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My .284 finished at 25 1/4". I compete with it, but I can only get 180s safely and accurately to a bit over 2800fps. That's all the velocity I need with a .735BC bullet, but I don't see the point of going any shorter.

If you want to go short, do a 7-08 and shoot lighter bullets. </div></div>

2800fps is straight up hauling ass for a 180 from a 25" 284.

That is not the norm.

Also, what 180gr 7mm bullet has a .735 BC?

Onto the OPs question:

Based on my 25.5", 29.25", and 28.25" 284 barrels, I've come to expect about 40-45fps per inch with this cartridge. My current 28.25" barrel is getting 2825-2850 from the 175smk with a moderate but not weak charge of H4831sc.

Therefore, I'd expect about 2500-2550fps if I were to cut 8" off the barrel. I know that additional velocity from additional barrel length starts tapering off pretty good past ~20" or so, so perhaps 2500 is a low estimate. Nonetheless, I wouldn't bother with a 284 in a short barrel. I'd stick with 7-08, or jump up to the 7WSM.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Big charges of slow-burning powder need plenty of bore volume to expand through if maximum efficiency is to be achieved. "Overbore" cartridges are more likely to lose substantial velocity to short barrels, which is why there are a lot more people doing shorty .308s than .284s. </div></div>

The burn rate of the powder has very little to do with it. Again, I bring up the 300 Win mag. Lots of people are running shorter barrels in these, and the loss of velocity per inch is consistent with any other cartridge regardless of type of powder being used. I do think there is a minimum amount of barrel required to avoid flames coming from out of the barrel, but in my experience the 16" legal limit is plenty for most cartridges.

The reason people think that most cartridges NEED a certain barrel length is simply because no one tries these out. Everyone assumes that the 308 and 5.56 are some kind of magical cartridges that work great with short barrels. The reason people think this is because the military had need of shorter weapons. Most of their small arms are chambered in these and so they cut them down. In the beginning people were shocked, stating that you shouldn't cut a 308 shorter than 24". Now that it is common, just because of that........its common. The 308 suffers just as much loss of velocity as any other cartridge, but its ok to have a 16" 308 running 175's at 2500 FPS. On the other hand, having a 16" 6.5 CM running 140's at 2600 is appalling to most people. Why?

The way I read it, the OP is willing to take 7-08 velocities for his intended use, but doesn't want a 26" barrel. IMHO a .284 with a 20" tube is a great compromise.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There isn't a magic minimum length for a given cartridge, though. It just comes down to making the best compromise for the user. </div></div>

YES! Well said.........compromise.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Onto the OPs question:

Based on my 25.5", 29.25", and 28.25" 284 barrels, I've come to expect about 40-45fps per inch with this cartridge. My current 28.25" barrel is getting 2825-2850 from the 175smk with a moderate but not weak charge of H4831sc.

Therefore, I'd expect about 2500-2550fps if I were to cut 8" off the barrel. I know that additional velocity from additional barrel length starts tapering off pretty good past ~20" or so, so perhaps 2500 is a low estimate. Nonetheless, I wouldn't bother with a 284 in a short barrel. I'd stick with 7-08, or jump up to the 7WSM.</div></div>

This man has experience with this cartridge, and I would take what he said for true knowledge.

However, I have personally not seen so much velocity loss per inch on the SAME tube. Usually we have been seeing 15-30 fps per inch.

I have seen 10 rock creek 6.5 barrels all chambered with the same reamer in 6.5 Creedmoor. All shooting the same load and length, the fastest was 2880 and the slowest was 2730. I think that you will see more variance in the particular blank that you end up with.

Also, I am fascinated that you recommend either a 7-08 or 7 WSM for this barrel length. The .284 is right between the two velocity wise, so why?

Please don't take my questions as disrespectful, as they are not intended that way. I am truly interested in your reasoning.

Ty

 

[pyplynr]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Mine is a 28" Shilen, Savage pre-fit barrel. I use 53 grains of 4831sc and a Berger 180 hybrid and load it at 3.1" oal to get 2755fps. I could push it to get 2800fps pretty easy but I like it right where it is for accuracy.

 

[turbo54]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fireguyty</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Onto the OPs question:

Based on my 25.5", 29.25", and 28.25" 284 barrels, I've come to expect about 40-45fps per inch with this cartridge. My current 28.25" barrel is getting 2825-2850 from the 175smk with a moderate but not weak charge of H4831sc.

Therefore, I'd expect about 2500-2550fps if I were to cut 8" off the barrel. I know that additional velocity from additional barrel length starts tapering off pretty good past ~20" or so, so perhaps 2500 is a low estimate. Nonetheless, I wouldn't bother with a 284 in a short barrel. I'd stick with 7-08, or jump up to the 7WSM.</div></div>

This man has experience with this cartridge, and I would take what he said for true knowledge.

However, I have personally not seen so much velocity loss per inch on the SAME tube. Usually we have been seeing 15-30 fps per inch.

I have seen 10 rock creek 6.5 barrels all chambered with the same reamer in 6.5 Creedmoor. All shooting the same load and length, the fastest was 2880 and the slowest was 2730. I think that you will see more variance in the particular blank that you end up with.

Also, I am fascinated that you recommend either a 7-08 or 7 WSM for this barrel length. The .284 is right between the two velocity wise, so why?

Please don't take my questions as disrespectful, as they are not intended that way. I am truly interested in your reasoning.

Ty

</div></div>

No disrepect inferred whatsoever. You raise a good point about velocity differences based solely on the barrel itself. My experience with the 284 is based on two barrels. One was a 25.5" Bartlein, the other a 29.25" Krieger, that I cut down an inch to 28.25". What I'm saying is my "sample size" isn't very impressive.

I mentioned stepping down to 708, or up to 7WSM, because it seems 284s take a big hit on velocity based on barrel length. The 708 is much easier to get brass for, burns less powder, has less blast etc etc... Or, if the velocity is truly important, go ahead to step up to the magnum, burn a ton of powder, and make that bullet scream.

 

[Jedi]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Flawed logic
to imagine that a 7-08 will outperform a 284 from same length barrel, regardless of how short it is.
Using loads that are typically ran from 24"+ barrels well just dont work so good, short barrels require loads designed specifically to reduce velocity loss. In fact building a short barrel rig is alot more involved than just chopping barrel.
My 20" 6.5x47
3023fps 123scenar

Done right a 284 shehane 22" barrel 162Amax
i would expect 2900fps
good luck

 

[turbo54]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Flawed logic
to imagine that a 7-08 will outperform a 284 from same length barrel, regardless of how short it is.
</div></div>

I made no claim that 708 would outperfom.

My point is that if you're willing to take the velocity loss from the short barrel 284, might as well loose a little more and have easier to get brass, burn less powder, get less muzzle blast, better barrel life etc etc.

If the velocity is truly important however, and you must have a short barrel...well...pour on the coals and use a magnum.

 

[fireguyty]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Using loads that are typically ran from 24"+ barrels well just dont work so good, short barrels require loads designed specifically to reduce velocity loss. In fact building a short barrel rig is alot more involved than just chopping barrel.

</div></div>

Would you care to expound on how to design a load to reduce velocity loss?

All we have done is chop barrels down and run the same load. The accuracy is just as good, if not better and we are loosing velocity due to barrel length loss.

I'd love to improve the performance on my 16" CM as I'm already in love with the thing.

Thanks,
Ty

 

[Pbailey]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Very interesting! Thank you for all the replies. So if deer was the only target in mind besides steel, would that change much? Would a 260 be all that's necessary for the target? Or would there be another caliber that really likes to perform from a short barrel?

 

[Jedi]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Really if your just chopping barrel and running same load from when barrel was longer, your not doing your self any favors.
A short barrel rig should be executed in a deliberate manner that addresses everything that can potentially reduce velocity.
No really you lost velocity chopping barrel and running same load, typically what most do and then bitch about fps loss.
Barrels
5P n 5C are considered by many fast barrels
Chamber
Get it cut so you can run a long OAL
Powder
double base high energy is what you want, if powder A makes 150fps over powder B ... well using powder B is counter productive
Really its not hard to build a short barrel rig that gives up little to standard length barrel, if you put forth some effort.
My 20" x47 is proof of that

 

[Pbailey]

Re: A Short Barreled .284 Anyone?

Thank you!