DBM systems pros and cons

[dyna962007]

Getting ready to buy and install a DBM system in my Remington 700 5R with HS Precision stock. Im wanting bottom metal that is drop in and does not require inletting, just minor fitting.
I have found a couple of options:
HS makes one: gen 1 and gen 2 systems with 3 and 8 round mags
Wyatts claims theres is also drop in with 5 and 10 round mags
Stockys has one they claim is drop in called the M4 and its a 5 and 10 round mag also.
Does anyone have any comments on this or experience with any of these?
Mike

 

[KNIGHT11B4]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I must ask, why are you wanting a DBM?

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

well I don't know how to answer that question as it has no answer. It comes down to philosophy I suppose. Some guys like and internal mag,some like a detachable mag.
I am more used to a high capacity M16/M4 weapon system and like the idea of fast magazine reloads in a high stakes combat situation and that is what the weapon is built for, I'm not a hunter or plinker.
3 rounds internal does not fit that bill brother.
As you know, sometimes even a concealed sniper can get into a situation where his cover is compromised and he may need to dispatch multiple targets in a short time.
Thank you for your interest and thoughts, mike

 

[vlcruz2001]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Had a Wyatts and it ran good. 5 round mags ran smooth. No fitting issues on my HS precision stock. 10 round mags ridiculously long. Got in the way shooting prone.

Had HS precision mag system as well. I prefer it over the Wyatt. Drops right in HS stock. Mags run smooth. Con is mags are very expensive and hard to come by.

Know nothing of M4 system although it looks just like a Wyatt. Actually when you click on Wyatt Outdoors on stockys website it brings you to the M4 DBM. So it may be the same thing.

 

[slowkota]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

From reading on Stocky's site... I got the feeling that the M4 was a Wyatt DBM. *Edit* It is!

Not sure if the Wyatts system accepts AI style mags or their own propriatary mags.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I must ask, why are you wanting a DBM?</div></div>

If you need to ask...

 

[fdkay]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

The Wyatt's system apparently works quite well, when Les Baer made his precision bolt rifle, he used the wyatts.

The HS also has a pretty good rep, though they are unobtanium.

Those are the only two that I know of that only require minor fitting.

Both the wyatts and the HS use their own proprietary mags.

 

[slowkota]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Wyatt's system apparently works quite well, when Les Baer made his precision bolt rifle, he used the wyatts.
</div></div>

Of course LB is gonna say it works great, or tweak it until it does... when they're using B&C stocks for their builds! lol! (aka: In bed with each other!)

I've heard some shitty things about the Wyatts DBM an mags in the past (when I had a B&C A5 Adj.)

I have a new 5R, and I've been racking my brain about a DBM system for over two weeks now.. And the only legit option is to have your stock inletted for a Badger DBM... And have several options for bottom metal, and most allow usage of popular AI style mags.

 

[18Echo]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

When I bought my first precision rifle, a GAP Rock, I thought the idea of a DBM was really cool. The coolness has worn off now, my last precision, a SAC 6.5x47L on an FNH action, I had mark give me a normal BDL type bottom metal. I don't have to worry about losing mags or buying pricey ones.

It's all about preference, there is no wrong or right choice, I just prefer the BDL style.

 

[roggom]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I had a wyatts and it ran fine. I purchased it for quick unloads for antelope hunting. For a functional hand carry bolt rifle, the wyatts sticks out too far because of the single stack mag. It fed perfect, much better than the internal mag.

If a choice between the two I would go with the HS because it sits flush.

Now, the mags allow for quick reload, but unless you have a whole chest carrier full of mags, you will have to delay and do "mag filling" duty. At the range I just found myself single loading, negating the $250 dbm I had mounted.

I wish someone would come out with a composite dbm system like the Tikka has. Sure it will not be viable over berms and other obstacles, but for the avg range rat/ hunter they would work fine.

 

[fdkay]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been racking my brain about a DBM system for over two weeks now.. And the only legit option is to have your stock inletted for a Badger DBM... And have several options for bottom metal, and most allow usage of popular AI style mags. </div></div>

Really?
The badger is the only legit dbm bottom metal out there?
So you're saying the seekins unit isn't legit?
Or the CDI unit?
PTG?
Hooper Ordnance?

The ONLY legit DBM on the face of the planet is Badger?
Wow, good to know.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Easy big fella. Think you read it wrong. I think he is saying the Badger footprint allows use of other DBM units using the same footprint and AI mags.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am more used to a high capacity M16/M4 weapon system and like the idea of fast magazine reloads in a high stakes combat situation and that is what the weapon is built for, I'm not a hunter or plinker.
3 rounds internal does not fit that bill brother.
As you know, sometimes even a concealed sniper can get into a situation where his cover is compromised and he may need to dispatch multiple targets in a short time.</div></div>

OP where you plan on using this rifle in a combat situation?

On the subject, I wouldn't use any DBM that uses their own mags. AICS mags are abundent and easy to find.

Spend the money(about $65-75) and do it right and get the rifle inletted for a good DBM set up.

 

[fdkay]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I disagree, he said the only legit option is the badger dbm.

He did NOT say the only legit option is a DBM using the aics mags (which is still a false statement)

The badger inlet is NOT identical to all other dbm inlets for the AI mags.

 

[Bone318]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Though inletting can be a pain, it's worth it to be able to use AI type mags, in my opinion. Newman precision has a great BM that I am currently replacing my badgers with. I like badgers (have 3 rifles with them), but the newman has a "shoe" towards the rear that allows faster indexing of the mag when speed is of the essence.

Stockdoc on the hide has done hundreds if not thousands DBM inlets and is reasonble, again IMO. He works on all my stuff and I have had zero feed issues in multiple rifles in multiple matches. Hope this helps.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Some had gone to using the same footprint for simplicity sake. I read his post as to say have that imprint inletted and then have some other options.

As to the use of AI mags I think I posted my feelings already. I wouldn't use a system that doesn't use them.

 

[George63]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

of the asic mag DBM, the Stiller is the simplest/ most forgiving inlet

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons


what does unobtanium mean?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Wyatt's system apparently works quite well, when Les Baer made his precision bolt rifle, he used the wyatts.

The HS also has a pretty good rep, though they are unobtanium.

Those are the only two that I know of that only require minor fitting.

Both the wyatts and the HS use their own proprietary mags. </div></div>

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Hey guys I am really pleased that this subject has stimulated a lot of activity. I think its a subject that many are in need of more info about including me. Please keep up the positive comments and even though you many not agree with the other posters, we're all here for the same reason because of our love of rifles and to share info with each other so please keep em coming. LOL
Mike

 

[MBC223]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I have tried the Wyatt's, cdi, and the badger. This manners mini chassis that are in my guns now are made by badger. IMO you get what you pay for. The Wyatt system just felt flimsy and kind of cheap. Also the mag release seemed to stick out way below the trigger guard. Sent it back. The cdi was pretty good and functioned but always fed a bit rough. The m5 and the mini chassis systems are both built like a tank and feed/function slicker than a minnows dick. Again, you get what you pay for. Badger is top shelf and worth the money...especially when you buy cheap shit and replace it with expensive shit. Get it right the first time.

 

[slowkota]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I read his post as to say have that imprint inletted and then have some other options.</div></div>

You are correct

I don't get how fdkay misconstrued what I typed

 

[George63]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
what does unobtanium mean?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Wyatt's system apparently works quite well, when Les Baer made his precision bolt rifle, he used the wyatts.

The HS also has a pretty good rep, though they are unobtanium.

Those are the only two that I know of that only require minor fitting.

Both the wyatts and the HS use their own proprietary mags. </div></div> </div></div>

not readily available for purchase- usually means they stopped making it, but left it in the catalog

 

[insight3b]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I'm in the same boat but took the plunge on the Badger M5. I got sick of ammo ending up in the left bolt raceway during loading. I will attempt to inlet my VLS stock this coming month.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Dyna you didn't answer my question above. Please clarify your use.

 

[fdkay]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #CC0000">And the only legit option is to have your stock inletted for a Badger DBM...</span></div></div>

Yeah, no possible way to misconstrue that statement.

You obviously meant "one of the many AICS systems", silly me.

Face it, you "Biden"ed yourself!

Anyway, I do agree that the AICS mags are proven performers, though pricey.
I tried a C products mag, it worked, though it did not hold 10 rounds as advertised.
When I was weighing the options and considering the price for a DBM and inlet, I decided to go ahead and upgrade my HS stock to an XLR chassis.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Oh sorry must have missed your question. My intended use for this particular weapon system is of a tactical combat nature.
I need a long range weapon that can engage multiple targets accurately in short time frame.

 

[Rob01]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Guess you are missing the point. Are you military? LE? What "targets" do you plan on shooting? Where will you be using it in "tactical combat nature"?

I am asking for the legality stand point for the site.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Speaking of this M5 option, I looked at what is called the M4 and M5 at Stocky's. I didnt fully understand what these were but I learned the M4 is a drop in fit with no inletting required not sure what mags it uses and the M5 is a heavier duty mil spec unit that does require inletting for sure and I think used the AI mags.
Another big question for me is all the recent talk of gen 1 and Gen 2 systems and mags has me a bit confused as a seperate subject. Supposedly the two are not interchangable and the Gen 2 looks to have a polymer bottom half to the mag.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Well I would hope my sig would render your concerns unnecessary and that you can see that I am a pretty legit guy, and I'm not asking this gunsmithing question on the NRA forums, it's Sniperhide if I'm not mistaken however, lets nip this in the bud now.
Here is my official purpose for asking this gunsmithing question. "I plan to engage multiple paper and steel targets in a timed event".
If you have additional questions or concerns, please PM me and I will gladly furnish you additional info.
thank you

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guess you are missing the point. Are you military? LE? What "targets" do you plan on shooting? Where will you be using it in "tactical combat nature"?

I am asking for the legality stand point for the site. </div></div>

 

[Rob01]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

We get all types here. Having "Former" anything in your sig line doesn't mean you will need a rifle for "combat". If you would have just put your true intentions in the post then it would have made the post and posters more productive as there are many competitive shooters here.

Trying to sound cooler by putting combat and tactical situations in a post just gets the Admin of this site to look a little harder as we don't condone any illegal activity and will get rid of anyone looking to use the site as such.

 

[jonthomps]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I've had Seekins (great for the 338 LM) and Badger M5 - both are legit . . . everyone else is throwing this word around so I wanted to be cool too.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Understood. I'll work real hard on trying to look less cool in future posts. mike

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons


thanks LOL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonthomps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've had Seekins (great for the 338 LM) and Badger M5 - both are legit . . . everyone else is throwing this word around so I wanted to be cool too. </div></div>

 

[Rob01]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Just be truthful in your intentions as it will help you get the right information for what you need. You need a DBM for competition. Nothing wrong with that. Many do. Again this helps as using AI mags will help at comps as if you lose one or one breaks you will likely find many with a spare. I carry 6 with me at comps.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons/very cool thread

well some of the wind has been taken out of the sales on this thread and it was going along really nicely with lots of good info being shared with each other.
Please continue to post and provide your opinions and input.
I am most interested in this M4 vs M5 concept and how much inletting is required for the M5 and if its indeed better than the M4 and what mags it takes. Also still trying to figure out this Gen 1 vs gen 2 and interchangeability of mags and the pros and cons of these two magazine versions, mike

 

[slowkota]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #CC0000">And the only legit option is to have your stock inletted for a Badger DBM...</span></div></div>

Yeah, no possible way to misconstrue that statement.

You obviously meant "one of the many AICS systems", silly me.

Face it, you "Biden"ed yourself!

Anyway, I do agree that the AICS mags are proven performers, though pricey.
I tried a C products mag, it worked, though it did not hold 10 rounds as advertised.
When I was weighing the options and considering the price for a DBM and inlet, I decided to go ahead and upgrade my HS stock to an XLR chassis. </div></div>

Christ you really do have selective reading!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the only legit option is to have your stock <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 20pt">inletted</span></span> for a Badger DBM... <span style="font-weight: bold"> <span style="font-size: 20pt"> And have several options for bottom metal, and most allow usage of popular AI style mags.</span></span></div></div>

Maybe I should've said "your best option" instead of saying "legit"...

 

[fdkay]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

Lighten up Francis.

Excuse me for reading exactly what you typed.

Besides, what good would it do to inlet for a badger DBM, then buy something else that WOULD NOT FIT THE INLET.

That would be pretty fucking stupid.

Not all DBM's would fit the badger inlet.

 

[JB02]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well some of the wind has been taken out of the sales on this thread and it was going along really nicely with lots of good info being shared with each other.
Please continue to post and provide your opinions and input.
I am most interested in this M4 vs M5 concept and how much inletting is required for the M5 and if its indeed better than the M4 and what mags it takes. Also still trying to figure out this Gen 1 vs gen 2 and interchangeability of mags and the pros and cons of these two magazine versions, mike</div></div>

Many have said this already, but subtlety. I will make it clear for you. There are Badger Ordnance M4 and Badger Ordnance M5 trigger guards. The Badger M4 is the BDL "hinged floorplate" style bottom metal. The Badger M5 is the detachable box magazine (DBM) system. The Badger M5, or any system that uses AICS magazines, will not "drop in" to a Remington 700 BDL inlet; a gunsmith should professionally inlet and install the system for you. (I should note that Alpha magazines will work in any DBM system that uses AICS mags, but I don't personally care for them).

http://badgerordnance.com/triggerguards/

Wyatt's M4 DBM system uses Wyatts magazines. The advantage is that the DBM trigger guard drops right into the Rem700 footprint, but as Rob01 remarked, these mags are not nearly as common or reliable as AICS magazines.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/350100/...-aluminum-black

Then there are HS Precision or Remington 700 DBM systems. These are very hard to find and are expensive. That reason alone is why I won't even consider using them.

So, what many have said on this boils down to this:
- If you want to take a cheap shortcut that you'll regret later on, get a DBM system that drops into the Rem 700 BDL footprint. You'll rue that you won't be able to take advantage of using AICS or Alpha mags, which are much more common and endorsed by all the top gun builders. If you want to do it right the first time, get an AICS compatible DBM system and pay to have your stock professionally inletted.

DBM systems that use AICS mags include (I'm sure there are more):
- Surgeon (this one is the best IMO)
- APA
- Badger M5
- Seekins
- CDI Precision (good value here too)

Hope this answers the mail

 

[George63]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

like I said above stiller is a good option if some cheap skate (like me) really wants to self install a DBM

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons


Say George, why do you say this? I thought anything that was using the AI mag must be inletted? Is the stiller one that installs easy?
Mike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">like I said above stiller is a good option if some cheap skate (like me) really wants to self install a DBM </div></div>

 

[dk-1]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

PT&G is another good option which takes AICS mags and fits the M5 inletting.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons


I have not heard of that one, PT&G, what does that stand for?
You know what guys, I am really confused by this M4 and M5 thing.
On the Stocky's site, they have an M4 and M5, both are DBM systems, one is milspec and one is not, one is a drop in and one is not but they are BOTH DBM systems.
I read a post yesterday that reffered to one being an internal mag system vs the other being a DBM system?
Are there two differnet designations for this M4/M5 thing?
very confusing, mike


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dk-1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PT&G is another good option which takes AICS mags and fits the M5 inletting. </div></div>

 

[JB02]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

The "M5 inletting" dk-1 refers to is the Badger M5 footprint. PT&G is just the name of the company "Pacific Tool and Gauge."

Yes, the Wyatt's nomenclature is confusing, so just remember this:

If you want a system that uses AICS mags, you're going to need to have your stock modified if it currently has a Rem 700 BDL footprint. My recommendation is go to with Surgeon DBM.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

thank you. so does the surgeon NOT require inletting or is it just very minor?
My stock is a HS Precision M-24 PSY-014.
I dont know if that makes a difference or not, mike

 

[George63]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Say George, why do you say this? I thought anything that was using the AI mag must be inletted? Is the stiller one that installs easy?
Mike

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: George63</div><div class="ubbcode-body">like I said above stiller is a good option if some cheap skate (like me) really wants to self install a DBM </div></div> </div></div>

the stiller only needs the magwell opened up, not the ends - 95% just file work
and the lip hides minor flaws
google them - the details on their website will make it more clear

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

ok I will check it out, mike

 

[JB02]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dyna962007</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thank you. so does the surgeon NOT require inletting or is it just very minor?
My stock is a HS Precision M-24 PSY-014.
I dont know if that makes a difference or not, mike</div></div>

No, you should have the stock professionally inletted, as with any system that uses AICS mags if your stock is cut for the Rem700 BDL floorplate.

Here is the info for Stiller DBM:
http://www.viperactions.com/

My read on this is that if you are an experienced hobbyist, you might be able to install this yourself. If you think you feel comfortable cutting a straight line with a dremel tool to fit this assembly in your stock and ensure proper feeding, go for it! That's too much of a headache for me. Smooth, reliable feeding is a must in any precision rifle system. If you really are a "gun enthusiast", then put your money where your mouth is and cough up the dough for a quality system, like Surgeon, APA, or Badger M5 and pay a reputable smith to install it to guarantee it feeds right. If that's too much of a pain, get an AICS 1.5 or 2.0 or a Manners mini-chassis.

 

[Trapshooter12]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I put a Hooper Ordanance in my HS 700P. I used the dreaded Dremel tool to do it. I think it took me a little over an hour to install it.
I had to cut some out of the front of tha magwell and cut some from the rear of the Trigger Gaurd bolt area. If your a do it yourself fit and cut fit and cut don't do it all in one shot.

Also if your going to order a DBM make sure they have it in their hands when you order, otherwise it may end up on backorder and a long wait period.

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

well actually, I do all my own smithing but its been limited to pistols and AR's as well as the Saiga 12's.
This is the first bolt gun I have ever owned and its all new.
I am able to do the fitting or inletting and mods to the stock for sure but I worry more about the reliable feeding and getting the seating depth correct, etc.
To be honest, I am so busy I dont really have time to do this anyway and would glady let an experienced gunsmith do this job for me as money is not the issue. The problem is finding such a person in the STL area without having to ship.
I have called some of the local ranges and made numerous inquires to find the right person and have yet to do so.
That is a huge part of the problem.
And as to this "AICS 1.5 or 2.0 or a Manners mini-chassis"
I dont know what that is but will google it and familiarize myself with it, heard of it before on the forums but dont know what it is LOL
Mike

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

just order a CDI and ship the stock to Jeff, he'll inlet the stock and ship the DBM when he ships the stock back

 

[dyna962007]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

I've been a bolt gun owner now for only a few months so I do not know all of these people and companies by name.
Can you please elaborate on who this is or how to find them?
Also in case I did not mention it in my previous posts, I do not want to change my stock. A good amount of money has been spend on it already, its a HS Precision stock M-24 PSY-014
Bedded with Marine-Tex by a competent gunsmith before I bought it.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: DBM systems pros and cons

CDI Precision Gunworks, Jeff is the owner, he'll inlet the stock (for around $60 IIRC)... and he'll do it w/o changing/messing up your stock


http://www.cdiprecisiongunworks.com/remington_700_short_action.html