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$1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

karagias

karagias

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Jan 24, 2010
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www.americanrifle.com
<span style="font-weight: bold">Question:</span> Would you pay <span style="font-weight: bold">$1</span> for a 30 caliber target/tactical bullet if it had a <span style="font-weight: bold">20%</span> BC advantage over its closest competitor in its respective weight class? Please answer yes or no and include a brief explanation for your answer.

For example: Midway currently offers Berger 30 cal, 175 gr Tactical bullets for $0.47 each, and Sierra 30 cal, 175 gr Matchking bullets for $0.33 each. Would you pay $1 each, about <span style="font-weight: bold">twice</span> what the Berger costs and <span style="font-weight: bold">three times</span> what the SMK costs, for a <span style="font-weight: bold">20%</span> BC advantage?

Please keep your replies short and pertinent. Users who reply sensibly and honestly will be entered into a raffle for a free set of American Rifle Company M10 Scope Rings. Chances of winning are 1 in 20 since a set of rings will be raffled after every twenty eligible replies. Raffle ends after 60 replies and each user name will be entered only once.
Thank you in advance for participating.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

no, technology is not that backwards that some hidden trick could increase BC by 20% without adverse effects (instability) negating any advantage

when real testing occurred (like that done this spring on the 338 turned solid projectiles with the high claims/prices) the initial buyers would almost certainly be left holding the bags of their overpriced/ underperforming projectiles and looking the fool

even if there was a breakthrough in technology, only projectiles of the 338 lapua /375/408 cheytac class would be worth that difference in price, other wise just change to a higher performance cartridge to get the same advantage for less $$

if my post was too long and not what you wanted to hear, I guess I am out of the running for the scope rings
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Personally, I would not. I shoot quite a bit so bulletsgi cost is a large factor for me. I load for 308 and 223AI and I look at the price per bullet in correspondence to the BC. I love to load to save money per round but I am the reloaded that loads a lot and shoots a lot. So I prefer the best value for a bullet. I don't shoot a lot of comps so I am not too worried about BC considering the 175SMK does all I need to do for now. But I am a low budget loader that tends to shy away from Berger and Lapua bullets because of price.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I would not pay $1 for any 30cal bullet even with a 20% BC advantage.

Lets say your average BC is .5, 20% better is only .600. For the minimal performance gain it's hard to justify spending $.75 more per bullet and you would very quickly, reach a point of negative returns when compared to say a 338LM in which I have 300grain .818BC bullets that are still $.25 cheaper per bullet than the proposed bullet.

I would however buy a .600BC bullet in 30cal if it was $.50 or maybe even $.60 but at $.60/each it would have to be a screaming good bullet.

 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I shoot .308 for low cost accuracy and barrel life at medium ranges. If I were to pay $1 for each bullet I would be shooting a different caliber with a higher BC for long range.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Not for .30... because the accuracy I get from existing designs is great at the .308 ranges I shoot at. Perhaps for .300 Magnum... but not for designs for .308.

But I would pay a premium for a .50 bmg with a significantly better BC than anything else out there... If you have a design that would scale to the BMG, definitely interested. Of course, they would be more than $1 each ;-)

Cheers,

Sirhr
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I would want to try a box, however a dollar per bullet seems like a bit much for a 308 when compared to what it costs to load for a 338 or 300 win mag. Now if you were to make a 338 Lapua bullet that bested the Berger 300 grain hybrid, by 20%, well then I would be very interested.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

nope i shoot alot when i have the extra cash to do so and to pay 3 times what i pay now would let me shoot a whole lot less for no real gain since i don't shoot comps yet.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Better bullets wont make up for skill, not buying them for that much a this time. If good bullets cost that much, I think I'd look at making my own.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

It's hard to add much more than what has already been written.

That is a high price for the "standard" .30 cal. One would quickly recoup their cost of a rebarrel for a more cost effective bullet with a higher BC in an alternate caliber, especially if a special twist .30 cal barrel would be needed to stabilize this new bullet.

I'm sure there are some who would want to try them and others who would buy some for the "wow" factor, but would that be enough to justify their manufacture?

As was said before, if this design/technology could be scaled larger for .338 and .50 cal, then I bet it would be more successful. Shooters of these calibers accept the high cost and are willing to pay for the increased performance these rounds allow already. If a similar BC improvement of these calibers could be designed, then the number of potential buyers would be smaller, but the percentage of those shooters willing to try it would be much higher.

If a .338 or .50 bullet was designed first with positive results obtained, a loyal following would likely ensue and if a .30 cal bullet was then introduced, you may have better luck marketing it. Besides, the buyers of the .338 and .50 might be able to absorb the development costs and allow the .30 cal bullet to be manufactured more cheaply, increasing its accepatance.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

If made in the USA, I would give them an HONEST TRY.
I'm not in this to be cheap and would like to have first hand, real world knowledge of how they may or may not perform.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

For me no I would not pay that much more. its expensive enough to shoot as much as I do.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, and I don't think many others would either. Just look at the current market share; not everyone shops bullets by BC- they're looking at things like cost and how finicky a bullet can be. In my experience, as BC goes up so does how picky the bullet is to load for. Berger's are already pushing the envelope for cost, so I really don't think an even more expensive bullet would be a good seller. I think your only market would be F-Class and Benchrest, where they're looking to minimize windage error.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I would not for target shooting. My reasoning is I cannot shoot the difference between the two bullets.

However, if it were not simple target shooting, but instead a two way range, I would pay the extra for that little advantage my life depends on.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Although there might be a small market, I'd vote no, being my rifles shoot as well as they do with the $0.47 projectile, I couldn't ever justify unless I was a serious competitor climbing the ranks.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I would pay $1 for each bullet if it gave me an advantage. When I have time I shoot 30BR for IBS VFS Benchrest matches and if after testing it proved to shoot better than what I shoot now I would pony up the dough for competition shoots.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I ran the numbers through my ballistic calculator and found this:

Elevation at 1000 yards gives you slightly better than 10% reduction in elevation adjustment. (32.9 moa to 29.5 moa)

Not that big of a deal.

However, if you look at windage, then you gain just over 25% better recuction in adjustment. (7.5 moa vs 5.9 moa)

In the computer model, it looks like the bullet would effectively mimic my 6.5 Creedmoor load. Of course real world testing would need to be done to verify. Interestingly the .30 cal load would beat my 6mm Creedmoor load in windage, but not elevation.

What is really impressive is the amount of energy that is retained with the 20% better bullet. 942 ft/lbs compared to 728 ft/lbs.

Is the bullet worth $1? In certain applications, yes. For general target shooting? no.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

In .308 I probably wouldn't spend the extra money. The 175gr SMK does everything I need. If they really worked well I might try them and maybe keep a few around for special purposes. I would think the benchrest guys would be more interested. iDK. There are a few companies making solid brass bullets in that price range so someone must be willing to by them.

Design a bullet that works better then the SMK for less money and I'll buy them by the dozen.
smile.gif
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I would also have to say no, but can't really add more that's already been written.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

for me, no. for someone else...very possibly a yes.
It's just like a S&B vs. a Nightforce....
they both, honestly, are VERY close optically....they both track excellently...and they both are built VERY rugged...but the S&B still sell, although not nearly as much as the nightforce.

with that said...for a tactical shooter...the additional BC might put them over the top during a windy match...and you, myself, and everyone on this forum knows that if you can spend a LITTLE more money to go from not winning to winning....a LOT of people will spend the money.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No for the bullet to cost that much i wouldn't have to reload in the first place i could just buy match ammo. Even then i do pay near .50 for Berger 175gr BT LRs which are the highest .30 cal BC 175s i've come across.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I would not. $1 a bullet is just to expensive for 308. If I were a good enough shot to make a living off of it then it might be reasonable. But for anyone who isn't going to get paid big bucks for shooting, that increase in cost vs performance just isn't worth it.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, Like many others have said, Its just not worth the price for 20% gain. Sure you would sell some just because people want to try diff rounds but that would probably be the majority of sales
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I would not, at this point.

I am just getting into long range shooting, and that extra $.50 a bullet would better serve me by buying more bullets. At this stage practice would be more benificial to me
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, if SMK's are $.33 ea thats 3 to 1 and I like to shoot so I will take volume over the slight advantage it may offer.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

For ordinary shooting, no way. If you could recoup your cost in a match, maybe.
A freind is paying $.55 a bullet for the 230gr Berger, haven't noticed the gains there.

I shot the the 300gr Berger in my .338 sniptac, $.72 a bullet. It was a bargain over the 275gr Rocky Mountain, @ $2.15 a bullet.
At 2000 yards the RM was 5% more accurate for me, for that gain it was not worth it.
Under 1500 yards, the Berger, 300gr SMK, Hornady 285gr were a wash for accuracy. A guy has to be careful where he alots his money in this game.

Theodore, you should have my address.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I would not pay a dollar a round for the twenty percent increase in bc.

BC alone does not make a bullet great. Let a few guys start smoking everyone else in f-class with these and give them great terminal performance and then my mind may change.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Myabe; but only were I shooting at the extreme distances where the added BC made shots possible where other bullets could not.

Honestly, I don't do that anymore; and buy Sierra, Nosler, and Hornady projectiles. They meet my needs both ballistically, and economically.

Greg
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Not likely. The existing offerings do all that I need them to do and as others have said previously the gains vs. cost aren't enough to justify the substantial increase for what I need that round to do for me.

Now if I were to be given a couple hundred to test would I burn up barrel life and the other components to give them a try? Sure, as I expect many others would as well.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Very much YES. my limited range time is precious, if I can "buy" performance, <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> </span>obtaining it is false economy for me.


 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No. If I was looking for ultimate performance, I would rebarrel to a good 6mm or 6.5mm, which would shoot just as well, if not better, for less than $.50 per loaded round. Give me a 6mm with a 20% improvement over 115gr DTAC's and I'd be interested.

It could have a foothold in F/TR competitions, though. It would be the best performer there.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No. My accuracy needs are not that fine. I'll take the added trigger time that the cheaper bullets allow to increase my accuracy.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I would pay for that kind of performance. That's a pretty small price to pay for a 20% BC increase.

I think a lot of people are looking at this from the wrong perspective. The post says this bullet would offer a 20% BC increase over the highest BC bullet available in its respective weight class. I have shot the 230 Berger in a 300 Norma Mag. If there was a bullet that had a 20% BC advantage over the 230 Berger, sign me up.

Would you use it in a 308? No. That wouldn't be practical. However, if you want a lower recoiling 30 cal magnum chambering like the 300 Norma Mag that would launch a 230 grain bullet at 3000 fps and have a BC as high as the .338 300 grain Berger, that would be impressive and worth every bit of $1 per bullet.

It all depends on your intended use. You wouldn't use this bullet for plinking. You would use it for ELR shooting which is just plain expensive. A $1 bullet is a drop in the bucket when you factor in all of the other costs, especially if it makes you substantially more effective at making hits at ELR.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Berger makes nice stuff, but 48 bucks a box is cost prohibitive when better options exist. If the bergers are 0.510 for 48 bucks, why not go Hornady 178 HPBT at 0.530 for 25 bucks a box?

To answer your question, no I would not pay a dollar per round for the option you presented. However, if you can get down around $0.80 - $0.85 cents a round with reasonable shipping, it may be worth it just in time spent at the bench to outsource the ammo production.

Winchester brass, virgin = $0.24
Hornady 178 HPBT = $0.25
Varget powder charge = $0.21
CCI BR2 Primer = $0.06

Total $0.76 per round, dropping to $0.52 on subsequent loadings of the brass. Come up with an option to submit used brass on subsequent lots of ammo and you stop making it worthwhile to to it ourselves.

That's my take,

Rich
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

The way I see it is the $ amount more should match the BC.

20 percent more BC should equal 20 percent more cost.

20 percent more BC for 200-300 percent more cost is just plain silly.

So for the question I would answer no, but that being said it would be neat to try them out
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

As I see it, there probably <span style="font-style: italic">would</span> be those willing to pay $1 per bullet if, in fact, the 20% increase in BC were demonstrably true. Perhaps not many initially, but some.

The real question in my mind would be what is different about this projectile to give a 20% increase in BC, and what would that mean as far as reloading. A 20% gain in BC would be great, right up to the point you realized you needed a faster twist rate, different chamber specs, or it was extremely difficult to produce an accurate reload due to some inherent difference in the shape of the projectile required to get the higher BC. If that turned out to be the case, IMO such a projectile wouldn't be worth the cost, even if they were priced similarly to the others you mentioned.

On the other hand, I would be willing to bet that if all else were equal (ease of reloading, twist rate, chamber specs, etc.), a projectile that performed as described would find a large market quickly as the word got around. Unfortunately, there's really no way to gauge its potential without significantly more information than simply a 20% increase in BC.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

My example:
I was paying 33 cents/bullet for my 300WM. I did try another bullet that costs 53 cents/bullet and it improved performance, in groups, by 50% at 1000 yards. I am willing to pay the 37% increase for it.
I would not pay 100% more for for a bullet even if it increased performance by the same factor.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I would not pay 2x-3x more for a bullet with a 20% gain. The way I see it is why shoot a 308 that has the ballistics of a 300 win mag that cost more than a 300 win mag with traditional bullets. Also what special requirements would this bullet require with twist rate and chambers?
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I wouldn't.

A better BC doesn't necessarily translate to better long range performance. Sierra learned that with their .224 90 gr. bullets.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

I have no doubt that their would be quite a few guys that would start shooting them at least at matches. solely because They can't stand not having the very best available no matter what the cost. But I am a budget shooter and probably wouldn't even try them unless I was given a box and then they would need to blow my mind for me to ever buy a box for myself.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Not for me. But if you were to do something equivalent in 338 cal.....
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No I wouldn't. As stated above B.C's don't always work as well as stated.
I think the dollar cost be needed just because the market share of people who are willing to buy them would be that much smaller.
Many of us already put thousands of rounds a year so the added cost would be hard to justify.

I also moved up to a better B.C by getting a new 6.5x47L. Using the Berger 130's is expensive enough, so even if this was for the 6.5's I'd still have to pass.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

Well, since you didn't specify other than 30 cal (or I didn't see it) I would possibly be interested in trying them out in my 300WM for hunting. I have had very good luck with Berger bullets and it's very well documented here that the SMK's do the job on a wide variety of game.

I would, however, have a different bullet/load combination for banging steel or paper punching as $1/rnd is far out of my budget for practice.

Where I live there are wide open areas with a ton of wind. If you could cut drift by 20-25% it would be very tempting.
 
Re: $1 per bullet and a free set of scope rings

No, I would not pay a dollar per bullet for a 20% increase in Ballistic Coefficient.

A 20% increase would certainly increase the effective range of the round and provide less drop and windage; however, for me, I reload to shoot as much as I can for a reasonable price. since I'm a broke college kid the price increase would not be worth it to me.

But, In the future when I'm better off financially, I would consider trying them out or using for competitions/hunting.
 
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