308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

[roboto1138]

I have done a fair amount of research and have read the "ABC's of Reloading", Lyman's current reloading manual and I am almost done with "Handloading for Competition". I

I recently have purchased the following equipment to start reloading for my Remington 700 - AAC-SD.

RCBS Rock Chucker Master Reloading kit
a set of Lee Dies with the Collect Neck Die
an Ultrasonic Cleaner
Sinclair bullet and case comparator
Lyman case prep tools

I know that I will want to upgrade my dies, but I think I put together a decent setup to get up and running with. I have about 800 once fired Federal cases ready to start prepping once all my stuff comes in. My question is would it be a waste of time and money to by bulk pulled 175 grain Sierra Match Kings to work up my load data and possible use in Tactical Precision Matches? I expect the bullets to be slightly scuffed from pulling, how badly could slight scuffs affect accuracy? The tactical matches do not have me shooting for group size and typically a MOA gun will do you just fine.

I also am wondering to develop my load how critical it will be for me to have a Chronograph to verify my velocity. I currently shot out to 600 yards and will need to make a new dope card based on my new ammunition.

Thanks to everyone in advance for any advice offered.

Josh

 

[ksthomas]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

Given the price break, the pulled bullets would probably be a great place to start. Shouldn't be much of an issue to work up a load for this one, since this field's been pretty well plowed for quite some time now. 41.5 grains of 4895 will shoot very well in just about any 308 with the 175s, and if it doesn't (as Glen says), you've got a gun problem. You mentioned wanting to upgrade your dies, so I assume that will mean a F/L die? I'd recommend it, especially for a competition gun like this.

Hope that helps!

 

[roboto1138]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

I bought the die set with the full length sizing die and the neck collet die. I plan to full length resize (.002 shoulder bump).

I understand the general concept of neck sizing, but I do not plan to size case necks any time soon. I do not see how neck sizing works without cutting case necks with either the collet or the bushing dies. Wouldnt the extra material in the neck be pushed either to the inside or down to the taper. I may be envisioning this the wrong way but that is how I am understanding it.

O like the look of the Lee full length sizing die also the neck sizing mandrel seems like it would provide more consistant force on the neck throughout the sizing process. Again I may be misunderstanding how this functions.

 

[MtnCreek]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how critical it will be for me to have a Chronograph to verify my velocity</div></div>

It’s not necessary, but it will make tuning loads easier. Tuning your loads for consistent velocities without a chrony will mean a lot of trial and error putting bullets down range. Not a bad thing, but given the choice between shooting a known good load and working on tuning a load, I’ll take shooting the proven load.

Once you find that load, you’ll have to do a little more work to match the results every time you change powder lots.

I don’t have any fancy ballistic program, so I may be missing out on some of the benefits of know my velocity. New load, I will plug my velocity and the manufacturers bc into the calculator at handloads . com to get me close. After that, knowing the velocity doesn’t really tell me anything, but 99% of my shooting is in similar conditions.

If you get a chrony, check out the CED or something similar that has the expensive part out of harm’s way.

Good luck!

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you get a chrony, check out the CED or something similar that has the expensive part out of harm’s way.
Good luck! </div></div>

What is the expensive part??
I have to show this to a freind, he managed to shoot his sensors 4 times before they went south.
They weren't cheap!

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtnCreek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how critical it will be for me to have a Chronograph to verify my velocity</div></div>

It’s not necessary, but it will make tuning loads easier. Tuning your loads for consistent velocities without a chrony will mean a lot of trial and error putting bullets down range. Not a bad thing, but given the choice between shooting a known good load and working on tuning a load, I’ll take shooting the proven load.

</div></div>

Amen to the Chronograph.

I've found that the data from my chronograph truly correlates to the results on paper. I've also found that the chrono data has helped me make a decision between two apparently good loads, both looking good on the target, but one having clearly lower SD and ES numbers. Sometimes shooter fatigue or weather conditions can open up a group but the chronograph shows "single digit" variations in speed.

Sooner or later you're going to want some speed values for your load in order to calculate the ballistic trajectory, especially if you shoot at multiple distances.

You can save yourself the cost of a good chrono in just reduced fiddling with loads and the related cost of those development components.

 

[George63]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roboto1138</div><div class="ubbcode-body">. My question is would it be a waste of time and money to by bulk pulled 175 grain Sierra Match Kings to work up my load data and possible use in Tactical Precision Matches? I expect the bullets to be slightly scuffed from pulling, how badly could slight scuffs affect accuracy? The tactical matches do not have me shooting for group size and typically a MOA gun will do you just fine.
Thanks to everyone in advance for any advice offered.

Josh
</div></div>

if you are just going to use a book load start with the pulled SMK

if you are looking to work up a load tuned to your rifle - buy at least 500 of the same new SMK for load development/premium loads

then use the same data for bulk loads with the pulled projectiles

not worth it to add another variable to load development, especially when starting out

 

[MtnCreek]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the expensive part??</div></div>

The electronics. The CED has the ‘computer’ attached to the screens with long cords. I’ve got a hunk of aluminum, some plastic and the sensors downrange. The little ‘computer’ is sitting beside me. I think other companies also have chrony's like this.

 

[roboto1138]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

I do shoot at different distances and I will need velocities of the various new loads to establish my ballistic trajectories. I guess I will make that my next purchase. I am pretty excited about starting this portion of the shooting hobby. Does any use the Lee dies? Will they be sufficient for making general OAL ammo.

Josh

 

[George63]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roboto1138</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do shoot at different distances and I will need velocities of the various new loads to establish my ballistic trajectories. I guess I will make that my next purchase.

Josh </div></div>

it is perfectly practical to not use a chrony, if you have accurately measured ranges available - get your scope settings/ comeups for 25 yards and 600yds - work backwards with the JBM ballistic calculator until the MV matches up to your real life data, then print a full chart using that MV

 

[LawnMM]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

The lee dies will be fine. You need a chronograph or you are spinning your wheels. Look at the magnetospeed chronograph. I have a CED M2, and its great, I've also never shot it. However, it takes time forward of the firing line to set up. The magnetospeed is a simpler idea.

You can do the bulk packaged matchkings, but I suggest you look at Hornady's offerings. They can be had for 6-7 dollars less per box and in the case of the 178 HPBT they have a higher BC than the matchkings.

 

[heytonyman]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

Shooting for group size was the worst mistake I made as a newb reloader. If all you want to do is cut tiny holes in paper at 100 yards then load up 3 shot groups and take your pick. If distance is your game then ES is what you should load for, not group size. I found out the hard way that the best loads on paper at 100 ended up having the worst ES's and thinking I found "THE LOAD" I promptly ruined a weekend of fun 3 states away. ES's were out of this world and I was seeing vertical spread of about 2 feet at 950 yards. A huge waste of pricey components and a lot of aggrivation. If I could do it again, I would have left the targets at home and simply brought along the chronograph.

It has been my experience that primer choice has a lot to do with ES's. WLR and FGMM primers both produce OK ES's at low to moderate loads but start to get erratic at higher pressures. CCI BR2's were the opposite, producing wild ES's down low but turned into single digit once the charges got into the hot zone (well over book max in my rifle). Your results may vary and others please chime in as to your results but this is what I've personally experienced.

The do-it-all long range load is the one that shoots decent group sizes (but likely not the best that the rifle can produce) and has VERY consistent ES's.

Tony P.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: heytonyman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting for group size was the worst mistake I made as a newb reloader. If all you want to do is cut tiny holes in paper at 100 yards then load up 3 shot groups and take your pick. If distance is your game then ES is what you should load for, not group size. I found out the hard way that the best loads on paper at 100 ended up having the worst ES's and thinking I found "THE LOAD" I promptly ruined a weekend of fun 3 states away. ES's were out of this world and I was seeing vertical spread of about 2 feet at 950 yards. A huge waste of pricey components and a lot of aggrivation. If I could do it again, I would have left the targets at home and simply brought along the chronograph.

It has been my experience that primer choice has a lot to do with ES's. WLR and FGMM primers both produce OK ES's at low to moderate loads but start to get erratic at higher pressures. CCI BR2's were the opposite, producing wild ES's down low but turned into single digit once the charges got into the hot zone (well over book max in my rifle). Your results may vary and others please chime in as to your results but this is what I've personally experienced.

The do-it-all long range load is the one that shoots decent group sizes (but likely not the best that the rifle can produce) and has VERY consistent ES's.

Tony P. </div></div>

Everything you said in your post makes sense, and most will agree with it. Just stands to reason.
I'm posting because my BEST LR load had the worst ES, 40ish, SD was 19 if I remember.
I couldn't miss with it, shot it for over 1 year, 0 to 1450 yards, finally rebuilt the gun.
Most of my other guns, I side with you, but that one, was different for some reason, and we chrono'd it more than once. Shook our heads each time.
It shot under 1/4" @ 100, and as good as 3" @ 1450.

Don't ask how, I don't know.

 

[roboto1138]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

I shoot a factory barreled/chambered rifle. My rifle currently will hold about 1/2"-3/4" MOA with FGGM. I f I am able to reload ammunition that will maintain this I will be a happy man. I am not interested in shooting groups, it is boring. I am shooting practical Precision/Tactical matches and am looking to make consistant reliable ammunition. Don't get me wring, I want to do the best job I possibly can, but I am a realist as far as attainable accuracy.

 

[George63]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Roboto1138</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot a factory barreled/chambered rifle. My rifle currently will hold about 1/2"-3/4" MOA with FGGM. I f I am able to reload ammunition that will maintain this I will be a happy man. I am not interested in shooting groups, it is boring. I am shooting practical Precision/Tactical matches and am looking to make consistant reliable ammunition. Don't get me wring, I want to do the best job I possibly can, but I am a realist as far as attainable accuracy. </div></div>


OK, with some more details filled in I will say:

skip the Lee dies go for at least forester if not redding - it will save some wandering if the dies are the issue

if you can do your ammo development/testing at distance, you can skip the chrony - the proof is in the pudding, if the vertical dispersion at distance is acceptable, what difference does it make what the chrony said?

and working the JBM backwards ( per my above post) will give a more reliable MV/set of come ups than a chrony - because it is tuned to your equipment with real world data

 

[George63]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

from what you have said so far here would be my KISS strategy:

buy 500 new 175 SMK
buy 1500 pulled 175 SMK
buy 16 lbs varget
buy 2000 standard primers ( wolf or tula is actually a good option )

this will be enough to use your FC brass for 3-4 total cycles and not get screwed on haz mat

load mag length - 2.8 inches, 5 each 43.5 to 44.4 gr by .1 gr with the new SMK

load 20 pulled at 44 gr (to get on paper)

get some big cardboard/paper

test at 600 yds

pick the best one - favoring less vertical dispersion

using that load make 500 with the pulled bullets - get the feel for the process

load the rest of the brass with the new SMK

repeat as the brass frees up

keep reading/ researching - by the time you get close to finishing the 2000 you will have a good idea of where you want to go from there

 

[heytonyman]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

Lots of good info here. Of course testing at range puts the results right in your face so that's the best way to go. In my situation the local range is only 100 yards. If I drive a couple hours I can get 400. Back home in western PA you can shoot as far as the eye can see and wanted to have my load ready ahead of time, so I needed to rely on the chrono to work the load. Should have listened to it...

The load I found on paper:

The numbers:

The aggravation:

Gave up and started going for the wood:

Again, 950 yards in a pretty much no-wind environment... Should have listened to the chrono since I could not test at distance off the break. I am now working on that 47.5-47.8g load...

 

[roboto1138]

Re: 308 Reloading - Fresh Meat

Thanks for all the information. This gives me a nice starting point.

I do have a shot coming up in the beginning of November. i may not have time to do full load developement. i may have to test a few loads throughout the safe zone and see what works best until I have time.

I will post some results.

Josh