I am currently running a desert tactical arms SRS bullpup in 308 and soon 338 lapua conversion and for glass I'm using a us optics 5-25 sn3 Tpal. I'm wanting to start saving my lunch money and hopefully sooner then later get either NV or a thermal device to attach infront of my day optic. I'm a former marine and have plenty of time with NV gear no so much thermal experience. But never a mounted optic on a rifle. Just wanting advise on which is better. The optic will be used for night shooting "I know that one is a shocker" and some hog/coyote hunting.
Night Vision NV or thermal???
- Thread starter Rowdyryno
- Start date
Re: NV or thermal???
If it were me I would do a clip on nv converter....and a hand held FLIR unit (something like the Scout PS32).
If it were me I would do a clip on nv converter....and a hand held FLIR unit (something like the Scout PS32).
Re: NV or thermal???
I really like the AN-pvs27 idea and looks of it but never had the opertunity to look through one
I really like the AN-pvs27 idea and looks of it but never had the opertunity to look through one
Re: NV or thermal???
The PVS-27 is a solid performer and the stand-by for the Military long-range shooters. It has the highest magnification capability and will handle anything up to the 50 BMG. Since you mentioned the .338 Lap I figure that you will want something that will reach a little farther and, the 27 will do that. I have spent a fair amount of time behind this optic in the Military and now, as a LEO and civilian. I like it a lot.
If you had a chance to use the SIMRAD, during your time in the Corps, you have a fairly good idea of what the 27 is capable of. Just remove the offset, add more brightness and clarity (resulting form the newer tubes available) and, you are close. Maybe that will help you to realize the potential. If you want to take a look at it, please feel free to follow this link to our website: http://tnvc.com/shop/muns-anpvs-27-magnum-universal-night-sight/
If you have any questions, feel free to call or email and, we will do our best to address them.
Be Safe,
Kyle
The PVS-27 is a solid performer and the stand-by for the Military long-range shooters. It has the highest magnification capability and will handle anything up to the 50 BMG. Since you mentioned the .338 Lap I figure that you will want something that will reach a little farther and, the 27 will do that. I have spent a fair amount of time behind this optic in the Military and now, as a LEO and civilian. I like it a lot.
If you had a chance to use the SIMRAD, during your time in the Corps, you have a fairly good idea of what the 27 is capable of. Just remove the offset, add more brightness and clarity (resulting form the newer tubes available) and, you are close. Maybe that will help you to realize the potential. If you want to take a look at it, please feel free to follow this link to our website: http://tnvc.com/shop/muns-anpvs-27-magnum-universal-night-sight/
If you have any questions, feel free to call or email and, we will do our best to address them.
Be Safe,
Kyle
Re: NV or thermal???
Thanks Kyle I'll def take a look into it. I've heard good things about that unit and I've had people say thermals are good for the closer stuff but on long range stuff not so much
Thanks Kyle I'll def take a look into it. I've heard good things about that unit and I've had people say thermals are good for the closer stuff but on long range stuff not so much
Re: NV or thermal???
You are on the right track. Thermals are a fantastic tool for LOCATING. They are also phenomenally good at close in shooting. The problem with them in a long-range engagement, is their ability to identify/ discriminate the target. That is where a really good illuminator and an I2 device comes in. Most folks are using the two tools in conjunction with one another and, IMHO that is the way to go.
You are on the right track. Thermals are a fantastic tool for LOCATING. They are also phenomenally good at close in shooting. The problem with them in a long-range engagement, is their ability to identify/ discriminate the target. That is where a really good illuminator and an I2 device comes in. Most folks are using the two tools in conjunction with one another and, IMHO that is the way to go.
Re: NV or thermal???
Yeah I would love to get both but im not gonna do a whole lot of night stuff just want the tools to do it when I can and I always get the best gear I can buy I couldn't justify 11K$$$+ for the NV and how ever much a thermal unit is. I will mainly just be calling on coyotes and scanning the tree lines for them.
Yeah I would love to get both but im not gonna do a whole lot of night stuff just want the tools to do it when I can and I always get the best gear I can buy I couldn't justify 11K$$$+ for the NV and how ever much a thermal unit is. I will mainly just be calling on coyotes and scanning the tree lines for them.
Re: NV or thermal???
What is the magnification range that you typically think you will be working in? From the info provided, I would say that you are going to be in 4X to 10X world. If that is the case, you do not necessarily need the capabilities that the 27 offers. You could make a 22 work for everything you desire. You still would get the ruggedness of a Military-issued system, at less cost. More in the $8500 range.
Another option, if you have a month or two to wait, will be our WASP clip-on. It is going to give you excellent resolution up to 10X. We built it to compare neck-n-neck with the 22. However, ours will be around $2000 less!!
Stay tuned...
What is the magnification range that you typically think you will be working in? From the info provided, I would say that you are going to be in 4X to 10X world. If that is the case, you do not necessarily need the capabilities that the 27 offers. You could make a 22 work for everything you desire. You still would get the ruggedness of a Military-issued system, at less cost. More in the $8500 range.
Another option, if you have a month or two to wait, will be our WASP clip-on. It is going to give you excellent resolution up to 10X. We built it to compare neck-n-neck with the 22. However, ours will be around $2000 less!!
Stay tuned...
Re: NV or thermal???
Will do
Will do
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TNVC_Kyle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another option, if you have a month or two to wait, will be our WASP clip-on. It is going to give you excellent resolution up to 10X. We built it to compare neck-n-neck with the 22. However, ours will be around <span style="color: #FF0000">$2000</span> less!!
Stay tuned... </div></div>
$2k less puts the Mini WASP at $6,500?
You guys are missing the original projected price point by about $1,500 benjamins. 
To quote an old boss "sharpen your pencils", more.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TNVC_Kyle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another option, if you have a month or two to wait, will be our WASP clip-on. It is going to give you excellent resolution up to 10X. We built it to compare neck-n-neck with the 22. However, ours will be around <span style="color: #FF0000">$2000</span> less!!
Stay tuned... </div></div>
$2k less puts the Mini WASP at $6,500?
To quote an old boss "sharpen your pencils", more.
Re: NV or thermal???
Correct. That was typo. Should have said $3000 and, it will be less.
Correct. That was typo. Should have said $3000 and, it will be less.
Re: NV or thermal???
Someone should just send a AN-pvs27 my way for Xmas
Someone should just send a AN-pvs27 my way for Xmas
Re: NV or thermal???
If you're going to shoot 300 or less then my vote goes to a good clip on thermal that will work with 2-7x magnification. Nothing will go unseen and you will hit it assuming you do everything on your part. Clearly you won't be taking advantage of the full magnification of your scope but 7x will do the job.
The guys I hunt with never see something before I do and their accuracy is no better. I can see it coming out to 800+ yards and it sticks out like a sore thumb. I can see it as it's making it's way through the brush.
They have resorted to the PS32 for locating which to me would be the idea if you go with NV but still that thing runs 9Hz at lower resolution and with the internal battery, after 5 hours you have to go back to your truck to plug it in.
TNVC has the FLIR clip ons also.
If you're going to shoot 300 or less then my vote goes to a good clip on thermal that will work with 2-7x magnification. Nothing will go unseen and you will hit it assuming you do everything on your part. Clearly you won't be taking advantage of the full magnification of your scope but 7x will do the job.
The guys I hunt with never see something before I do and their accuracy is no better. I can see it coming out to 800+ yards and it sticks out like a sore thumb. I can see it as it's making it's way through the brush.
They have resorted to the PS32 for locating which to me would be the idea if you go with NV but still that thing runs 9Hz at lower resolution and with the internal battery, after 5 hours you have to go back to your truck to plug it in.
TNVC has the FLIR clip ons also.
Re: NV or thermal???
Yeah I thought a lot about that as well and most the time I'll be slotting close range just for hunting but we shoot far ranges as well for target shooting so just gotta do some thinking I wish I could get some trigger time be hind the units and let that decide
Yeah I thought a lot about that as well and most the time I'll be slotting close range just for hunting but we shoot far ranges as well for target shooting so just gotta do some thinking I wish I could get some trigger time be hind the units and let that decide
Re: NV or thermal???
If target shooting is a big part of your decision, get the NV. Reliably being able to see paper or steel targets at night with the thermal just isn't nearly as good as the NV(largely depending on the backstop and sunshine leading up to darkness).
I knew that going in thinking I could also use it for practical night shoots but the benefits of hunting with thermal out weights not reliably being able to use if for night target practice for me.
You can use it for target practice, hunting and zeroing in broad daylight though!
If target shooting is a big part of your decision, get the NV. Reliably being able to see paper or steel targets at night with the thermal just isn't nearly as good as the NV(largely depending on the backstop and sunshine leading up to darkness).
I knew that going in thinking I could also use it for practical night shoots but the benefits of hunting with thermal out weights not reliably being able to use if for night target practice for me.
You can use it for target practice, hunting and zeroing in broad daylight though!
Re: NV or thermal???
$5,500 for a 10x clip-on ... My wallet is under siege!!!! Must sell more guns more quickly to make room!
$5,500 for a 10x clip-on ... My wallet is under siege!!!! Must sell more guns more quickly to make room!
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris@SportOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it were me I would do a clip on nv converter....and a hand held FLIR unit (something like the Scout PS32). </div></div>
+1 for this.
I run a clip on IR NV and a PS32 thermal. Thermal is great for scanning and locating, but positive identification can be a problem with thermal. That's what I count on the IR for.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris@SportOptics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it were me I would do a clip on nv converter....and a hand held FLIR unit (something like the Scout PS32). </div></div>
+1 for this.
I run a clip on IR NV and a PS32 thermal. Thermal is great for scanning and locating, but positive identification can be a problem with thermal. That's what I count on the IR for.
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdr724</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ID becomes quite good with thermal if you spend alot of time in the field looking through it. You won't need to see the white and black pattern to know it's a skunk at 150 yards. </div></div>
I think you've been working with better gear than me. My little PS32 does a great job of letting me know there's something at 150 yards but the resolution just isn't there to make out the subtleties of critters big or small. I know there are some amazing high-res thermal units out there. Wish I had the budget to play with one. The PS32 + a traditional NV clip-on + IR illuminator broke the bank as is
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdr724</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ID becomes quite good with thermal if you spend alot of time in the field looking through it. You won't need to see the white and black pattern to know it's a skunk at 150 yards. </div></div>
I think you've been working with better gear than me. My little PS32 does a great job of letting me know there's something at 150 yards but the resolution just isn't there to make out the subtleties of critters big or small. I know there are some amazing high-res thermal units out there. Wish I had the budget to play with one. The PS32 + a traditional NV clip-on + IR illuminator broke the bank as is
Re: NV or thermal???
Thermal takes some time getting used to it under different conditions.
The little 19mm lens on the PS-32 works great for detection at long ranges but it is hardly good for identification past 50 yards.
In my experience, (using the same FLIR 320X240 pixel uncooled microbolometer) you need a lens of about 35mm for ID out to 100 yards, 60mm out to 250 yards, and 100mm out to 400 yards, each with decreasing FOV. If you double the microbolometer to 640X480 pixels you can double the ID range again.
Thermal takes some time getting used to it under different conditions.
The little 19mm lens on the PS-32 works great for detection at long ranges but it is hardly good for identification past 50 yards.
In my experience, (using the same FLIR 320X240 pixel uncooled microbolometer) you need a lens of about 35mm for ID out to 100 yards, 60mm out to 250 yards, and 100mm out to 400 yards, each with decreasing FOV. If you double the microbolometer to 640X480 pixels you can double the ID range again.
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thermal takes some time getting used to it under different conditions.
The little 19mm lens on the PS-32 works great for detection at long ranges but it is hardly good for identification past 50 yards.
In my experience, (using the same FLIR 320X240 pixel uncooled microbolometer) you need a lens of about 35mm for ID out to 100 yards, 60mm out to 250 yards, and 100mm out to 400 yards, each with decreasing FOV. If you double the microbolometer to 640X480 pixels you can double the ID range again. </div></div>
Thermal imagers do not provide what I would call identification even up close. What they provide is excellent detection of warm bodied objects and creatures at distance -- and even, then, performance is largely contingent on contrast. A person or animal standing in front of a large object that is close in average temperature will be practically indistinguishable from the background object unless extremely close. Conditions that can reduce contrast include hot climates, heavy wind and rain, or heavily forested areas where the ground level is shielded from sunlight for 48 hours or more and has cold, wet air blowing in from nearby large bodies of water. An interesting test, is to sight in on indoor objects with thermal imaging and then observe what happens to the contrast as heat or air conditioning kicks in and runs for a while. Lack of contrast is one thing, another is excessive thermal noise. Most plants are outstanding at capturing solar thermal energy and retaining it for 12 hours or more. It is easy for a warm body to become lost in all the thermal signatures of a tropical rain forest or heavily forested area at the edge of a clearing during or after a bright, sunny, hot, summer day.
Furthermore, thermal imaging cannot see through complete cover. For example, if white tail deer, coyotes, foxes, etc. push into dense thickets of tall marsh grasses or reeds taller than they are, you will not be able to detect them after they have moved in past several feet and if they keep moving (which minimizes transference of the heat from their bodies to the cover).
The best of all worlds is the fusion technology that combines thermal and i^2 light intensification. In fact, for those aiming to shoot at what they can detect and identify, the fusion imaging with edge detection is the most useful -- in thermal "outline" mode a warm bodied target will have an outline around it and that fulfills detection; then the i^2 imaging in the same visual plane can be used to identify the finer features of the target while an infrared aiming dot or integrated reticle can be used to aim at the center of mass or vital area. Contrary to popular awareness, fusion technology is well within grasp of anyone who can afford a T50. However, the trick to gaining "killer" performance is to have user programmable firmware. They all have it, but only the engineering departments of LE and military are permitted access to it.
For example, for the few who have the coin to purchase a DSNVG / ENVG usually become quickly disillusioned and sell it off at a loss. Why? Because without the firmware access, the performance cannot be tuned beyond just mediocre sensing. This is how our war fighters and first responders are protected from adversaries who can somehow acquire the equipment. As an added measure, even if unauthorized individuals can jailbreak the firmware access, there is the added hurdle of needing to have proprietary machine language programming skills to code the transfer and BIOS.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thermal takes some time getting used to it under different conditions.
The little 19mm lens on the PS-32 works great for detection at long ranges but it is hardly good for identification past 50 yards.
In my experience, (using the same FLIR 320X240 pixel uncooled microbolometer) you need a lens of about 35mm for ID out to 100 yards, 60mm out to 250 yards, and 100mm out to 400 yards, each with decreasing FOV. If you double the microbolometer to 640X480 pixels you can double the ID range again. </div></div>
Thermal imagers do not provide what I would call identification even up close. What they provide is excellent detection of warm bodied objects and creatures at distance -- and even, then, performance is largely contingent on contrast. A person or animal standing in front of a large object that is close in average temperature will be practically indistinguishable from the background object unless extremely close. Conditions that can reduce contrast include hot climates, heavy wind and rain, or heavily forested areas where the ground level is shielded from sunlight for 48 hours or more and has cold, wet air blowing in from nearby large bodies of water. An interesting test, is to sight in on indoor objects with thermal imaging and then observe what happens to the contrast as heat or air conditioning kicks in and runs for a while. Lack of contrast is one thing, another is excessive thermal noise. Most plants are outstanding at capturing solar thermal energy and retaining it for 12 hours or more. It is easy for a warm body to become lost in all the thermal signatures of a tropical rain forest or heavily forested area at the edge of a clearing during or after a bright, sunny, hot, summer day.
Furthermore, thermal imaging cannot see through complete cover. For example, if white tail deer, coyotes, foxes, etc. push into dense thickets of tall marsh grasses or reeds taller than they are, you will not be able to detect them after they have moved in past several feet and if they keep moving (which minimizes transference of the heat from their bodies to the cover).
The best of all worlds is the fusion technology that combines thermal and i^2 light intensification. In fact, for those aiming to shoot at what they can detect and identify, the fusion imaging with edge detection is the most useful -- in thermal "outline" mode a warm bodied target will have an outline around it and that fulfills detection; then the i^2 imaging in the same visual plane can be used to identify the finer features of the target while an infrared aiming dot or integrated reticle can be used to aim at the center of mass or vital area. Contrary to popular awareness, fusion technology is well within grasp of anyone who can afford a T50. However, the trick to gaining "killer" performance is to have user programmable firmware. They all have it, but only the engineering departments of LE and military are permitted access to it.
For example, for the few who have the coin to purchase a DSNVG / ENVG usually become quickly disillusioned and sell it off at a loss. Why? Because without the firmware access, the performance cannot be tuned beyond just mediocre sensing. This is how our war fighters and first responders are protected from adversaries who can somehow acquire the equipment. As an added measure, even if unauthorized individuals can jailbreak the firmware access, there is the added hurdle of needing to have proprietary machine language programming skills to code the transfer and BIOS.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me.
Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me.
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
IR-V, man you are a true wealth of information and I certainly appreciate your helpful education of poor ole me!
I really like my T-50, it is a very powerful instrument.
Here is a thermal video of me shooting a coyote @ 200 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/ACOG%20TO2/Thermal%20Coyote%20Web.wmv
And a DOA Hog @ 80 yards with other hogs out to 225 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T50/Dead%20Hog%20WEB2.wmv
As you can see in the videos, I can easily determine a deer, hog, squirrel, owl, possum, coyote, dog, bunny, etc. out to 250 or so yards without any problem. But I will NOT be ID-ing humans with it anytime soon....
Two hundred and fifty yards is about the max range of my rifle-cartridge combo and 90% of the time when I pull the trigger it is under 100 yards.
IR-V, man you are a true wealth of information and I certainly appreciate your helpful education of poor ole me!
I really like my T-50, it is a very powerful instrument.
Here is a thermal video of me shooting a coyote @ 200 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/ACOG%20TO2/Thermal%20Coyote%20Web.wmv
And a DOA Hog @ 80 yards with other hogs out to 225 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T50/Dead%20Hog%20WEB2.wmv
As you can see in the videos, I can easily determine a deer, hog, squirrel, owl, possum, coyote, dog, bunny, etc. out to 250 or so yards without any problem. But I will NOT be ID-ing humans with it anytime soon....
Two hundred and fifty yards is about the max range of my rifle-cartridge combo and 90% of the time when I pull the trigger it is under 100 yards.
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V </div></div>
Holy Mackeral, I would go NUTZ for that software application to film the bullet flight from the muzzle to the hog in real time, that is freaking totally awesome!
I have a digital Exlim video camera that records at 240 frames per second too, a slow-mo hog killing video of the bullet flying into the hog would be killer fantastic!....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V </div></div>
Holy Mackeral, I would go NUTZ for that software application to film the bullet flight from the muzzle to the hog in real time, that is freaking totally awesome!
I have a digital Exlim video camera that records at 240 frames per second too, a slow-mo hog killing video of the bullet flying into the hog would be killer fantastic!....
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety</span></span>, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V </div></div>
... and for the courtroom as well.
I've been on enough cases over the years to know how important this aspect is.
As always IR-V, your information is always welcomed from a few of us around here.
Vic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety</span></span>, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V </div></div>
... and for the courtroom as well.
I've been on enough cases over the years to know how important this aspect is.As always IR-V, your information is always welcomed from a few of us around here.
Vic
Re: NV or thermal???
In the unlikely event of being thrust into a good vs. bad guy scenario and only being equiped with one platform, I would feel more comfortable knowing I have a way to see the BG's which doesn't require an illuminator given the relative proliferation of NV vs. thermal.
For ID confidence in hunting, nothing replaces having observed animals behavior, movements and characteristics so when you see it through the thermal you know what it is.
In the unlikely event of being thrust into a good vs. bad guy scenario and only being equiped with one platform, I would feel more comfortable knowing I have a way to see the BG's which doesn't require an illuminator given the relative proliferation of NV vs. thermal.
For ID confidence in hunting, nothing replaces having observed animals behavior, movements and characteristics so when you see it through the thermal you know what it is.
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thermal takes some time getting used to it under different conditions.
The little 19mm lens on the PS-32 works great for detection at long ranges but it is hardly good for identification past 50 yards.
In my experience, (using the same FLIR 320X240 pixel uncooled microbolometer) you need a lens of about 35mm for ID out to 100 yards, 60mm out to 250 yards, and 100mm out to 400 yards, each with decreasing FOV. If you double the microbolometer to 640X480 pixels you can double the ID range again. </div></div>
Thermal imagers do not provide what I would call identification even up close. What they provide is excellent detection of warm bodied objects and creatures at distance -- and even, then, performance is largely contingent on contrast. A person or animal standing in front of a large object that is close in average temperature will be practically indistinguishable from the background object unless extremely close. Conditions that can reduce contrast include hot climates, heavy wind and rain, or heavily forested areas where the ground level is shielded from sunlight for 48 hours or more and has cold, wet air blowing in from nearby large bodies of water. An interesting test, is to sight in on indoor objects with thermal imaging and then observe what happens to the contrast as heat or air conditioning kicks in and runs for a while. Lack of contrast is one thing, another is excessive thermal noise. Most plants are outstanding at capturing solar thermal energy and retaining it for 12 hours or more. It is easy for a warm body to become lost in all the thermal signatures of a tropical rain forest or heavily forested area at the edge of a clearing during or after a bright, sunny, hot, summer day.
Furthermore, thermal imaging cannot see through complete cover. For example, if white tail deer, coyotes, foxes, etc. push into dense thickets of tall marsh grasses or reeds taller than they are, you will not be able to detect them after they have moved in past several feet and if they keep moving (which minimizes transference of the heat from their bodies to the cover).
The best of all worlds is the fusion technology that combines thermal and i^2 light intensification. In fact, for those aiming to shoot at what they can detect and identify, the fusion imaging with edge detection is the most useful -- in thermal "outline" mode a warm bodied target will have an outline around it and that fulfills detection; then the i^2 imaging in the same visual plane can be used to identify the finer features of the target while an infrared aiming dot or integrated reticle can be used to aim at the center of mass or vital area. Contrary to popular awareness, fusion technology is well within grasp of anyone who can afford a T50. However, the trick to gaining "killer" performance is to have user programmable firmware. They all have it, but only the engineering departments of LE and military are permitted access to it.
For example, for the few who have the coin to purchase a DSNVG / ENVG usually become quickly disillusioned and sell it off at a loss. Why? Because without the firmware access, the performance cannot be tuned beyond just mediocre sensing. This is how our war fighters and first responders are protected from adversaries who can somehow acquire the equipment. As an added measure, even if unauthorized individuals can jailbreak the firmware access, there is the added hurdle of needing to have proprietary machine language programming skills to code the transfer and BIOS.
IR-V
</div></div>
Maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thermal takes some time getting used to it under different conditions.
The little 19mm lens on the PS-32 works great for detection at long ranges but it is hardly good for identification past 50 yards.
In my experience, (using the same FLIR 320X240 pixel uncooled microbolometer) you need a lens of about 35mm for ID out to 100 yards, 60mm out to 250 yards, and 100mm out to 400 yards, each with decreasing FOV. If you double the microbolometer to 640X480 pixels you can double the ID range again. </div></div>
Thermal imagers do not provide what I would call identification even up close. What they provide is excellent detection of warm bodied objects and creatures at distance -- and even, then, performance is largely contingent on contrast. A person or animal standing in front of a large object that is close in average temperature will be practically indistinguishable from the background object unless extremely close. Conditions that can reduce contrast include hot climates, heavy wind and rain, or heavily forested areas where the ground level is shielded from sunlight for 48 hours or more and has cold, wet air blowing in from nearby large bodies of water. An interesting test, is to sight in on indoor objects with thermal imaging and then observe what happens to the contrast as heat or air conditioning kicks in and runs for a while. Lack of contrast is one thing, another is excessive thermal noise. Most plants are outstanding at capturing solar thermal energy and retaining it for 12 hours or more. It is easy for a warm body to become lost in all the thermal signatures of a tropical rain forest or heavily forested area at the edge of a clearing during or after a bright, sunny, hot, summer day.
Furthermore, thermal imaging cannot see through complete cover. For example, if white tail deer, coyotes, foxes, etc. push into dense thickets of tall marsh grasses or reeds taller than they are, you will not be able to detect them after they have moved in past several feet and if they keep moving (which minimizes transference of the heat from their bodies to the cover).
The best of all worlds is the fusion technology that combines thermal and i^2 light intensification. In fact, for those aiming to shoot at what they can detect and identify, the fusion imaging with edge detection is the most useful -- in thermal "outline" mode a warm bodied target will have an outline around it and that fulfills detection; then the i^2 imaging in the same visual plane can be used to identify the finer features of the target while an infrared aiming dot or integrated reticle can be used to aim at the center of mass or vital area. Contrary to popular awareness, fusion technology is well within grasp of anyone who can afford a T50. However, the trick to gaining "killer" performance is to have user programmable firmware. They all have it, but only the engineering departments of LE and military are permitted access to it.
For example, for the few who have the coin to purchase a DSNVG / ENVG usually become quickly disillusioned and sell it off at a loss. Why? Because without the firmware access, the performance cannot be tuned beyond just mediocre sensing. This is how our war fighters and first responders are protected from adversaries who can somehow acquire the equipment. As an added measure, even if unauthorized individuals can jailbreak the firmware access, there is the added hurdle of needing to have proprietary machine language programming skills to code the transfer and BIOS.
IR-V
</div></div>
Maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
Re: NV or thermal???
I like the idea of having both so I'm waiting to see what comes of this
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3066242&gonew=1#UNREAD
I like the idea of having both so I'm waiting to see what comes of this
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3066242&gonew=1#UNREAD
Re: NV or thermal???
All excellent examples of <span style="font-weight: bold">detection</span>, SkyPup! A scope with strong <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">identification</span></span> capabilities is one that you can use to navigate complex terrain! ;-)
<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Example 1:</span></span><span style="font-weight: bold">
Q=Identification: </span>Lon Horiuchi, is that a woman or a man you're aiming at?
<span style="font-weight: bold">A=Detection Only:</span> I dunno, it looks like ... a human!
<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Example 2:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Q=Identification:</span> SkyPup, is that a pesky feral dog or your neighbor's pesky dog you're aiming at?
<span style="font-weight: bold">A=Detection Only:</span> I dunno, it looks like ... a canine!
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IR-V, man you are a true wealth of information and I certainly appreciate your helpful education of poor ole me!
I really like my T-50, it is a very powerful instrument.
Here is a thermal video of me shooting a coyote @ 200 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/ACOG%20TO2/Thermal%20Coyote%20Web.wmv
And a DOA Hog @ 80 yards with other hogs out to 225 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T50/Dead%20Hog%20WEB2.wmv
As you can see in the videos, I can easily determine a deer, hog, squirrel, owl, possum, coyote, dog, bunny, etc. out to 250 or so yards without any problem. But I will NOT be ID-ing humans with it anytime soon....
Two hundred and fifty yards is about the max range of my rifle-cartridge combo and 90% of the time when I pull the trigger it is under 100 yards. </div></div>
All excellent examples of <span style="font-weight: bold">detection</span>, SkyPup! A scope with strong <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">identification</span></span> capabilities is one that you can use to navigate complex terrain! ;-)
<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Example 1:</span></span><span style="font-weight: bold">
Q=Identification: </span>Lon Horiuchi, is that a woman or a man you're aiming at?
<span style="font-weight: bold">A=Detection Only:</span> I dunno, it looks like ... a human!
<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">Example 2:</span></span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Q=Identification:</span> SkyPup, is that a pesky feral dog or your neighbor's pesky dog you're aiming at?
<span style="font-weight: bold">A=Detection Only:</span> I dunno, it looks like ... a canine!
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">IR-V, man you are a true wealth of information and I certainly appreciate your helpful education of poor ole me!
I really like my T-50, it is a very powerful instrument.
Here is a thermal video of me shooting a coyote @ 200 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/ACOG%20TO2/Thermal%20Coyote%20Web.wmv
And a DOA Hog @ 80 yards with other hogs out to 225 yards:
http://www.phossil.com/thom/Night%20Vision/FLIR%20T50/Dead%20Hog%20WEB2.wmv
As you can see in the videos, I can easily determine a deer, hog, squirrel, owl, possum, coyote, dog, bunny, etc. out to 250 or so yards without any problem. But I will NOT be ID-ing humans with it anytime soon....
Two hundred and fifty yards is about the max range of my rifle-cartridge combo and 90% of the time when I pull the trigger it is under 100 yards. </div></div>
Re: NV or thermal???
Thermal detection of bullet trace cannot be fooled by the use of sound suppressors (whose purpose is not to "silence" a bullet but to mask the location from which it was fired).
A federal law enforcement agency that specializes in criminal investigations has biometric, forensic scientists that use both Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA matching to positively <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ID</span></span> persons of interest. If you can get in with them as a gold badge, I can share with you the algorithm / code for enabling bullet trace on your T50.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy Mackeral, I would go NUTZ for that software application to film the bullet flight from the muzzle to the hog in real time, that is freaking totally awesome!
I have a digital Exlim video camera that records at 240 frames per second too, a slow-mo hog killing video of the bullet flying into the hog would be killer fantastic!.... </div></div>
Thermal detection of bullet trace cannot be fooled by the use of sound suppressors (whose purpose is not to "silence" a bullet but to mask the location from which it was fired).
A federal law enforcement agency that specializes in criminal investigations has biometric, forensic scientists that use both Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA matching to positively <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">ID</span></span> persons of interest. If you can get in with them as a gold badge, I can share with you the algorithm / code for enabling bullet trace on your T50.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy Mackeral, I would go NUTZ for that software application to film the bullet flight from the muzzle to the hog in real time, that is freaking totally awesome!
I have a digital Exlim video camera that records at 240 frames per second too, a slow-mo hog killing video of the bullet flying into the hog would be killer fantastic!....
Re: NV or thermal???
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">Thanks, Vic, for appreciating! It is <span style="text-decoration: underline">always</span> a great pleasure to share with you, a true professional who knows the business of law enforcement and more!
IR-V</span></span><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor-TNVC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety</span></span>, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V </div></div>
... and for the courtroom as well. I've been on enough cases over the years to know how important this aspect is.
As always IR-V, your information is always welcomed from a few of us around here.
Vic </div></div>
<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt">Thanks, Vic, for appreciating! It is <span style="text-decoration: underline">always</span> a great pleasure to share with you, a true professional who knows the business of law enforcement and more!
IR-V</span></span><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor-TNVC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IR-V</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you very much for that info, that is good to know and another good reason why I only purchase FLIR thermal equipment with FLIR brand as I know the software is the best that it can be to interpolate the image for me. </div></div>
You're welcome. FLIR VOX is to thermal imaging what Zeiss optics are to microscopes. Even with their "open architecture", there are still limits on disclosure. For example, are you aware that your T50 can be custom coded to visualize and track bullet trace? The visualization is better in 640x480 (T60) but the BIOS of the T50 is fundamentally the same.
Nonetheless, the advisement is that thermal imaging, alone, is good for detection. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Identification that meets law enforcement criterion for public safety</span></span>, requires i^2 technology. Gaining both in the same visual plane with edge detection is the best.
IR-V </div></div>
... and for the courtroom as well.
I've been on enough cases over the years to know how important this aspect is.As always IR-V, your information is always welcomed from a few of us around here.
Vic </div></div>
Re: NV or thermal???
If the neighbors dog is a yorkie and the one I'm looking at is 20# plus with different movements and mannerisms than the neighbors dog then BANG and immediately start the puppy whines hoping another will come in!
While you clearly have a deep understanding of the technologies I think your missing the OP's originally stated needs we were responding to.
Clearly when human life is at stake there is an entirely different set of ID confidence requirements and I don't recall the OP stating male / female human ID as a buying criteria.
Good luck with your decision.
Out,
If the neighbors dog is a yorkie and the one I'm looking at is 20# plus with different movements and mannerisms than the neighbors dog then BANG and immediately start the puppy whines hoping another will come in!
While you clearly have a deep understanding of the technologies I think your missing the OP's originally stated needs we were responding to.
Clearly when human life is at stake there is an entirely different set of ID confidence requirements and I don't recall the OP stating male / female human ID as a buying criteria.
Good luck with your decision.
Out,
Re: NV or thermal???
Ah Ha, well, I have helped to identify human bone marrow DNA that was 12,000 years old from the bones of early American Indians looking for the HLA antigens (human leukocyte antigens on Chromosome 6) of the MHC (Major Histocompatability Complex) to determine whether or not they (Early Americans) were exposed to Syphyllis (Tremenoma pallidum)and/or Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium tuberculosis) prior to Christopher Columbus landing in the New World (they were not).
Apparently the Y-chromosome is on its way out evolutionarily speaking, as it has been losing genes the last couple of million years. Mitochondrial DNA (from the female side) just may win out in the long run leaving a monosex of butchy bitches to take over....
Ah Ha, well, I have helped to identify human bone marrow DNA that was 12,000 years old from the bones of early American Indians looking for the HLA antigens (human leukocyte antigens on Chromosome 6) of the MHC (Major Histocompatability Complex) to determine whether or not they (Early Americans) were exposed to Syphyllis (Tremenoma pallidum)and/or Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium tuberculosis) prior to Christopher Columbus landing in the New World (they were not).
Apparently the Y-chromosome is on its way out evolutionarily speaking, as it has been losing genes the last couple of million years. Mitochondrial DNA (from the female side) just may win out in the long run leaving a monosex of butchy bitches to take over....
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$5,500 for a 10x clip-on ... My wallet is under siege!!!! Must sell more guns more quickly to make room! </div></div>
You gotta sell guns... I gotta sell a car! lol
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">$5,500 for a 10x clip-on ... My wallet is under siege!!!! Must sell more guns more quickly to make room! </div></div>
You gotta sell guns... I gotta sell a car! lol
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah Ha, well, I have helped to identify human bone marrow DNA that was 12,000 years old from the bones of early American Indians looking for the HLA antigens (human leukocyte antigens on Chromosome 6) of the MHC (Major Histocompatability Complex) to determine whether or not they (Early Americans) were exposed to Syphyllis (Tremenoma pallidum)and/or Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium tuberculosis) prior to Christopher Columbus landing in the New World (they were not).
Apparently the Y-chromosome is on its way out evolutionarily speaking, as it has been losing genes the last couple of million years. Mitochondrial DNA (from the female side) just may win out in the long run leaving a monosex of butchy bitches to take over.... </div></div>
Run that by me again...
LoL
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah Ha, well, I have helped to identify human bone marrow DNA that was 12,000 years old from the bones of early American Indians looking for the HLA antigens (human leukocyte antigens on Chromosome 6) of the MHC (Major Histocompatability Complex) to determine whether or not they (Early Americans) were exposed to Syphyllis (Tremenoma pallidum)and/or Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium tuberculosis) prior to Christopher Columbus landing in the New World (they were not).
Apparently the Y-chromosome is on its way out evolutionarily speaking, as it has been losing genes the last couple of million years. Mitochondrial DNA (from the female side) just may win out in the long run leaving a monosex of butchy bitches to take over....
Run that by me again...
LoL
Re: NV or thermal???
We could determine genetically whether or not the New World Indians had been exposed to the Old World diseases of Syphilis and Tuberculosis by examining the genes in their MHC complex that determines "self" to see if they had produced any humoral antibodies to either of those bacterial organisms.
The Male Y Chromosome has been losing many coding base pairs over the last few million years and is slowly shrinking in size, ultimately mitochrondrial DNA from females could possibly replace it sometime in the distant future.....
We could determine genetically whether or not the New World Indians had been exposed to the Old World diseases of Syphilis and Tuberculosis by examining the genes in their MHC complex that determines "self" to see if they had produced any humoral antibodies to either of those bacterial organisms.
The Male Y Chromosome has been losing many coding base pairs over the last few million years and is slowly shrinking in size, ultimately mitochrondrial DNA from females could possibly replace it sometime in the distant future.....
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdr724</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the neighbors dog is a yorkie and the one I'm looking at is 20# plus with different movements and mannerisms than the neighbors dog then BANG and immediately start the puppy whines hoping another will come in!
While you clearly have a deep understanding of the technologies I think your missing the OP's originally stated needs we were responding to.
Clearly when human life is at stake there is an entirely different set of ID confidence requirements and I don't recall the OP stating male / female human ID as a buying criteria.
Good luck with your decision.
Out,
</div></div>
I understand clearly the OP's originally stated needs, the technologies, how they are designed, and the scenarios for their application as that's what I direct for a living.
My insertion point was where "thermal imager" and "identification" were made synonymous.
When you have only the ability to detect a silhouette, you need something additional for positive identification. For you, that something extra is judging behavior and mannerisms, which is called cognitive interpolation. I^2 can also be used to fill in the details within the frame of the silhouette.
Thermal gives an enhanced capability to detect. Other senses, sensors and cognition are used to identify.
When you have only one to a handful of live targets in an isolated zone to shoot at, identification is less important. When they start moving fast and intermingling in areas with other things, both warm and not so warm, that you don't want to shoot, quick and positive identification becomes more important.
Furthermore, because of its poor ability to identify details to the user, thermal imaging is inferior for navigation in complex terrain. Fine for stationary scenarios, such as shooting from a fixed position such as a tree stand. Not so great when you have to be more mobile and navigate difficult, complex terrain.
For all these reasons, fusing thermal imaging with i^2 gives the best possible detection and identification capabilities. Why live with just one sensor capability when you can have them all.
In regard to the question in the OP: "NV or thermal". It shouldn't be too difficult to use your cognitive skills to apply what lessons I have shared to understanding that if you need to be highly mobile in low-light scenarios that you will be better equipped with i^2 or i^2 + thermal imaging instead of just thermal. I hope that was not too hard for you to understand.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jdr724</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the neighbors dog is a yorkie and the one I'm looking at is 20# plus with different movements and mannerisms than the neighbors dog then BANG and immediately start the puppy whines hoping another will come in!
While you clearly have a deep understanding of the technologies I think your missing the OP's originally stated needs we were responding to.
Clearly when human life is at stake there is an entirely different set of ID confidence requirements and I don't recall the OP stating male / female human ID as a buying criteria.
Good luck with your decision.
Out,
</div></div>
I understand clearly the OP's originally stated needs, the technologies, how they are designed, and the scenarios for their application as that's what I direct for a living.
My insertion point was where "thermal imager" and "identification" were made synonymous.
When you have only the ability to detect a silhouette, you need something additional for positive identification. For you, that something extra is judging behavior and mannerisms, which is called cognitive interpolation. I^2 can also be used to fill in the details within the frame of the silhouette.
Thermal gives an enhanced capability to detect. Other senses, sensors and cognition are used to identify.
When you have only one to a handful of live targets in an isolated zone to shoot at, identification is less important. When they start moving fast and intermingling in areas with other things, both warm and not so warm, that you don't want to shoot, quick and positive identification becomes more important.
Furthermore, because of its poor ability to identify details to the user, thermal imaging is inferior for navigation in complex terrain. Fine for stationary scenarios, such as shooting from a fixed position such as a tree stand. Not so great when you have to be more mobile and navigate difficult, complex terrain.
For all these reasons, fusing thermal imaging with i^2 gives the best possible detection and identification capabilities. Why live with just one sensor capability when you can have them all.
In regard to the question in the OP: "NV or thermal". It shouldn't be too difficult to use your cognitive skills to apply what lessons I have shared to understanding that if you need to be highly mobile in low-light scenarios that you will be better equipped with i^2 or i^2 + thermal imaging instead of just thermal. I hope that was not too hard for you to understand.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah Ha, well, I have helped to identify human bone marrow DNA that was 12,000 years old from the bones of early American Indians looking for the HLA antigens (human leukocyte antigens on Chromosome 6) of the MHC (Major Histocompatability Complex) to determine whether or not they (Early Americans) were exposed to Syphyllis (Tremenoma pallidum)and/or Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium tuberculosis) prior to Christopher Columbus landing in the New World (they were not).
Apparently the Y-chromosome is on its way out evolutionarily speaking, as it has been losing genes the last couple of million years. Mitochondrial DNA (from the female side) just may win out in the long run leaving a monosex of butchy bitches to take over.... </div></div>
I am impressed, SkyPup! The organization I speak of, uses Y-chromo for paternal matching, and Mito for maternal matching. In the law enforcement business of identifying persons of interest, knowing their associations by lineage can be enormously useful as concentric zone theory is used to understand associations, and associations are used to understand demographic targets of interest (or 'communities of interest'). Right now, a system of laboratories, information systems, records repositories and methods, exists across international, federal, state, local and tribal law enforcement and the academic communities that is dedicated more or less to Y-chromo or Mito. A major initiative is to combine these systems, methods and infrastructures and to fuse them with other biometrics including "ten print" identification into a united IDENT technology and services approach. This is not unlike the concept of "mashing up" i^2 and LWIR technologies for the most capable sensing possible. Fusion of services and capabilities is the ubiquitous theme.
All you need is your law enforcement credentials for the forensic application of your extensive skills / knowledge / abilities, and you will become an authorized recipient of the code for enabling bullet trace in your T50.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah Ha, well, I have helped to identify human bone marrow DNA that was 12,000 years old from the bones of early American Indians looking for the HLA antigens (human leukocyte antigens on Chromosome 6) of the MHC (Major Histocompatability Complex) to determine whether or not they (Early Americans) were exposed to Syphyllis (Tremenoma pallidum)and/or Tuberculosis (Mycobacterium tuberculosis) prior to Christopher Columbus landing in the New World (they were not).
Apparently the Y-chromosome is on its way out evolutionarily speaking, as it has been losing genes the last couple of million years. Mitochondrial DNA (from the female side) just may win out in the long run leaving a monosex of butchy bitches to take over....
I am impressed, SkyPup! The organization I speak of, uses Y-chromo for paternal matching, and Mito for maternal matching. In the law enforcement business of identifying persons of interest, knowing their associations by lineage can be enormously useful as concentric zone theory is used to understand associations, and associations are used to understand demographic targets of interest (or 'communities of interest'). Right now, a system of laboratories, information systems, records repositories and methods, exists across international, federal, state, local and tribal law enforcement and the academic communities that is dedicated more or less to Y-chromo or Mito. A major initiative is to combine these systems, methods and infrastructures and to fuse them with other biometrics including "ten print" identification into a united IDENT technology and services approach. This is not unlike the concept of "mashing up" i^2 and LWIR technologies for the most capable sensing possible. Fusion of services and capabilities is the ubiquitous theme.
All you need is your law enforcement credentials for the forensic application of your extensive skills / knowledge / abilities, and you will become an authorized recipient of the code for enabling bullet trace in your T50.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
We have done some work over the years in human physical anthropology and court testimony in explaining to jurors and prosecuting attorneys DNA methodologies for ID of criminals, but that is a minor side line. Primary applications are in human gene therapy for the elimination of suffering due to congenital birth defects and genetic disorders. I do like busting criminals though and could have easily gone into forensic science.
We have done some work over the years in human physical anthropology and court testimony in explaining to jurors and prosecuting attorneys DNA methodologies for ID of criminals, but that is a minor side line. Primary applications are in human gene therapy for the elimination of suffering due to congenital birth defects and genetic disorders. I do like busting criminals though and could have easily gone into forensic science.
Re: NV or thermal???
Both!!
Both!!
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have done some work over the years in human physical anthropology and court testimony in explaining to jurors and prosecuting attorneys DNA methodologies for ID of criminals, but that is a minor side line. Primary applications are in human gene therapy for the elimination of suffering due to congenital birth defects and genetic disorders. I do like busting criminals though and could have easily gone into forensic science. </div></div>
Your work is honorable, your intellect is high, and your motives are pure.
I have signed an NDA regarding the code for enabling bullet trace. If the contract entities had their way, it would be shared with no one outside their corporate boundaries. However, the code was developed as the result of a contract with federal law enforcement. Therefore, it may be shared with -- and by federal procurement law -- cannot be withheld from any federal law enforcement entity that can establish their need as being commensurate with that of the original solicitation.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SkyPup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have done some work over the years in human physical anthropology and court testimony in explaining to jurors and prosecuting attorneys DNA methodologies for ID of criminals, but that is a minor side line. Primary applications are in human gene therapy for the elimination of suffering due to congenital birth defects and genetic disorders. I do like busting criminals though and could have easily gone into forensic science. </div></div>
Your work is honorable, your intellect is high, and your motives are pure.
I have signed an NDA regarding the code for enabling bullet trace. If the contract entities had their way, it would be shared with no one outside their corporate boundaries. However, the code was developed as the result of a contract with federal law enforcement. Therefore, it may be shared with -- and by federal procurement law -- cannot be withheld from any federal law enforcement entity that can establish their need as being commensurate with that of the original solicitation.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both!! </div></div>
You got it, brother. "Full-spectrum" IR sensing is where it's at, and the fusion is getting more and more capable and more and more affordable with each passing year. Moore's Law applies to this technology also.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fastford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Both!! </div></div>
You got it, brother. "Full-spectrum" IR sensing is where it's at, and the fusion is getting more and more capable and more and more affordable with each passing year. Moore's Law applies to this technology also.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nukes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[Maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
</div></div>
Sorry, Nukes -- didn't mean to ignore your request.
I could post a detailed list of fusion technologies with a checklist of plusses and minuses, and commensurate costs, but that would take all the fun out of it.
My recommendation is to evaluate the historical registry for FEDBIZOPPS (afterall, your taxpayer dollars have paid for this 'transparency') for multi-year contracts with the DoD for either the development or supply of i^2 + LWIR (Long Wave Infrared, aka 'Thermal') sensing technologies. Key word = IDIQ (Indefinite Delivery / Indefinite Quantity). The condition you are looking for is something known as "contact overrun". You will be able to buy these for 1/2 the contract price the government paid (as listed in the results portion of the historical record), and trust me on this, we're talking true "MIL-SPEC" fusion technology here. Also, you'll benefit from the rigor of those DoD CDRLs (Contract Deliverable Requirements), and they ARE rigorous ... all this to say that you will be gaining the best, military spec'd, military tested, military proofed, and military enhanced technology at the best possible price. Plus, when you read the Mission Needs Statement, you'll understand the Military's real-life application for the fusion technology, and their priorities and intents, which is much better than hearing from a bunch of guys chatting on a web forum (including me).
Money talks, bullshit walks -- so you want to find what Uncle Sam has spent the big taxpayer $$$,$$$,$$$ for our warfighters on land, sea and air.
Just know that some capabilities you can't see or activate are there, but locked out unless you can establish credentials as law enforcement or military.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nukes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[Maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
</div></div>
Sorry, Nukes -- didn't mean to ignore your request.
I could post a detailed list of fusion technologies with a checklist of plusses and minuses, and commensurate costs, but that would take all the fun out of it.
My recommendation is to evaluate the historical registry for FEDBIZOPPS (afterall, your taxpayer dollars have paid for this 'transparency') for multi-year contracts with the DoD for either the development or supply of i^2 + LWIR (Long Wave Infrared, aka 'Thermal') sensing technologies. Key word = IDIQ (Indefinite Delivery / Indefinite Quantity). The condition you are looking for is something known as "contact overrun". You will be able to buy these for 1/2 the contract price the government paid (as listed in the results portion of the historical record), and trust me on this, we're talking true "MIL-SPEC" fusion technology here. Also, you'll benefit from the rigor of those DoD CDRLs (Contract Deliverable Requirements), and they ARE rigorous ... all this to say that you will be gaining the best, military spec'd, military tested, military proofed, and military enhanced technology at the best possible price. Plus, when you read the Mission Needs Statement, you'll understand the Military's real-life application for the fusion technology, and their priorities and intents, which is much better than hearing from a bunch of guys chatting on a web forum (including me).
Money talks, bullshit walks -- so you want to find what Uncle Sam has spent the big taxpayer $$$,$$$,$$$ for our warfighters on land, sea and air.
Just know that some capabilities you can't see or activate are there, but locked out unless you can establish credentials as law enforcement or military.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
Since I am not a sleuth, but an enduser, maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
Are we talking >$20,000?
Since I am not a sleuth, but an enduser, maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
Are we talking >$20,000?
Re: NV or thermal???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nukes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I am not a sleuth, but an enduser, maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
Are we talking >$20,000? </div></div>
Everybody is looking for easy answers. Dig deep and do your homework. If you still can't find something with all the hints, drop me a private mail (but not in 30 minutes, and only after you've done a little independent research).
Cost is $7,000 - $10,500 depending on configuration.
IR-V
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nukes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Since I am not a sleuth, but an enduser, maybe you could recommend a few fusion units... starting at the low end price point and moving upscale?
Are we talking >$20,000? </div></div>
Everybody is looking for easy answers. Dig deep and do your homework. If you still can't find something with all the hints, drop me a private mail (but not in 30 minutes, and only after you've done a little independent research).
Cost is $7,000 - $10,500 depending on configuration.
IR-V
Re: NV or thermal???
Ok so I looked at the FEDBIZOPPSI site and it said you could register as a "citizen" but then would not let you unless your agency was already registered.
Looking over the FAQ I can see why our Gov't is so screwed up with so much paperwork and so many forms etc, just insane! Just looking it over gave me the same type of headache I get when I spend to much time behind the NODS.
My question is if I cannot buy a fused monocular ex ENVG from a manfact because they have their own internal policy against selling to a civi or because of some gov't restriction that gets placed on them (?), how in the world can I acquire one from the same people just because it is a gov't contract over run and @ half the price? I have been around long enough to have realized that many of the things that I thought were impossible are in fact possible, but this one would suprise me.
Ok so I looked at the FEDBIZOPPSI site and it said you could register as a "citizen" but then would not let you unless your agency was already registered.
Looking over the FAQ I can see why our Gov't is so screwed up with so much paperwork and so many forms etc, just insane! Just looking it over gave me the same type of headache I get when I spend to much time behind the NODS.
My question is if I cannot buy a fused monocular ex ENVG from a manfact because they have their own internal policy against selling to a civi or because of some gov't restriction that gets placed on them (?), how in the world can I acquire one from the same people just because it is a gov't contract over run and @ half the price? I have been around long enough to have realized that many of the things that I thought were impossible are in fact possible, but this one would suprise me.
Re: NV or thermal???
It shouldn't be too difficult to use your cognitive skills to apply what lessons I have shared to understanding that if you need to be highly mobile in low-light scenarios that you will be better equipped with i^2 or i^2 + thermal imaging instead of just thermal. I hope that was not too hard for you to understand.
IR-V
I saw this coming a mile a way. This is the part that negates anything you think you know that everyone else is too stupid to get.
You take care now,
It shouldn't be too difficult to use your cognitive skills to apply what lessons I have shared to understanding that if you need to be highly mobile in low-light scenarios that you will be better equipped with i^2 or i^2 + thermal imaging instead of just thermal. I hope that was not too hard for you to understand.
IR-V
I saw this coming a mile a way. This is the part that negates anything you think you know that everyone else is too stupid to get.
You take care now,
Re: NV or thermal???
<span style="font-weight: bold">It shouldn't be too difficult to use your cognitive skills to apply what lessons I have shared to understanding that if you need to be highly mobile in low-light scenarios that you will be better equipped with i^2 or i^2 + thermal imaging instead of just thermal. I hope that was not too hard for you to understand.</span>
Trying to understand where the above come from. Yeah I'm just your average Joe but I figured that out long before you informed me.
Now you shared some stealthy info on what FLIR can really do which was interesting. Then you throw a bone out about some way to get fused technology that is not normally available from the regular sources and at half the price of what the gov't pays to boot. I do a little research with my limited google fu skills and then pose a simple and straight forward question back to you that I know many others are and were thinking, but all you come back with is the Einstein attitude. I guess your just to smart for the rest of us or just me.
You take care now,
<span style="font-weight: bold">It shouldn't be too difficult to use your cognitive skills to apply what lessons I have shared to understanding that if you need to be highly mobile in low-light scenarios that you will be better equipped with i^2 or i^2 + thermal imaging instead of just thermal. I hope that was not too hard for you to understand.</span>
Trying to understand where the above come from. Yeah I'm just your average Joe but I figured that out long before you informed me.
Now you shared some stealthy info on what FLIR can really do which was interesting. Then you throw a bone out about some way to get fused technology that is not normally available from the regular sources and at half the price of what the gov't pays to boot. I do a little research with my limited google fu skills and then pose a simple and straight forward question back to you that I know many others are and were thinking, but all you come back with is the Einstein attitude. I guess your just to smart for the rest of us or just me.
You take care now,
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