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100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

D

dieselgeek

Do you even Shoot Bro?
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 1, 2010
1,423
5
Dallas, Texas
I'm trying to narrow down my problem here.

Rifle is a factory AAC-SD in .308
Manners T4 w/ Mini-Chassis
Timney Trigger
PWS PRC muzzle brake.

I used a shim washer set to put the brake on the rifle, and it's on tight, I can't think of another way to do it, other than to have it rethreaded and timed to fit the brake just right.

My scope is on well, and tq to spec as is the chassis, and the rings, and the base. So I don't feel like that's the problem.

The barrel does sit more on one side of the stock than the other, but it's not touching I've checked it all the way up.

Here are my shit tasktic 100 yard groups. Below them is a 200 yard group, and at 1000 yards it seemed to do okay, but I did not shoot any groups. One thing I noticed was w/ 168g TAP it shot very well at 1000. Maybe I was just getting lucky at that point, but I'm at a lost w/ WTF is going on at 100 yards.

I don't reload, but had some hand loads that worked well in my last .308. It was 175SMK 43.5 RL-15 in Lapua brass. Then I shot groups w/ SW118LR. The handloads would only get to 2450 , while the SW118LR was reaching speeds of 2530. Almost a mil of difference at a grand.

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Here is my 200 yard group.

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Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

You gave a bunch of different types but didn't mention what ammo you shot these particular groups with. Was it the reloads, the factory stuff, or both?
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Thats not an uncommon occurance. I know it doesnt make sense but I had a GAP Rock that with my reloads would shoot about 1-1.25 MOA at 100 but 300-1000 shot .5MOA or well under when i did my part. Everyone told me to shoot at 200 or more when doing load developement for this reason.

The opposite is true as well, bugholes at 100 and all over at longer ranges.

Since it's usuable at 100 and acting right at longer ranges I'd just roll with it..
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 117D-RTO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You gave a bunch of different types but didn't mention what ammo you shot these particular groups with. Was it the reloads, the factory stuff, or both?</div></div>


The 2nd 100 yard group is shot w/ the handloads, everything else is SW118LR
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

My 100yd groups are weird also, I'd get .7moa but at 200yds all of the shots would make a nice hole.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Have you had this issue with other rifles before, or is this your first precision rig?

Oftentimes, too much magnification can be troublesome. I've found I shoot better groups at 100 with lower magnification.

My GAP I had shot certain bullets really crummy at 100, but shot them great at extended ranges. This was true of the 130 gr Berger VLD...it would shoot 1/2-3/4" at 300 yards, but about 1" at 100.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have you had this issue with other rifles before, or is this your first precision rig?

Oftentimes, too much magnification can be troublesome. I've found I shoot better groups at 100 with lower magnification.

My GAP I had shot certain bullets really crummy at 100, but shot them great at extended ranges. This was true of the 130 gr Berger VLD...it would shoot 1/2-3/4" at 300 yards, but about 1" at 100. </div></div>

I had an issue w/ my Remington VTR that had a fixed 10x leupold, but it was sending WILD flyers. A stock change fixed that. After I put an AICS in it, it was just fine.

The scope is a Bushnell HDMR. Power was between 15 and 21.

Before I had a GAP in 6.5 creedmoor, w/ a Premier, and I shot .25-.4 MOA at 100 and 500.

Before that trued 700 in 6.5 CM w/ a Nightforce F1 .3-.5 MOA

And before that trued 700 with a shillen barrel that shot .5 MOA, it also had a nightforce.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Making sure the parallax is dialed out?

If so, could just be the quirk of the rifle/load combination.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Does the SW 118L use Military brass? And are the flyers the first shots or the last?

If you can try Federal GOLD .308 win not The Nato stuff or Black hills red box 175 and see if you get the flyers.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Could have just gotten a shitty Remington barrel. Put good dressing on a turd and it still taste like a turd. Try some Fed FGMM and if it won't shoot have the barrel bore scoped.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

RL15 is 45g max w/168 & 180g bullets. The vertical in most of your groups say more powder. The max 2710 fps (168gr), vs your 2450 fps indicate the same. Maybe some load workup would help.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Have someone else try your rifle to see if they have the same results.

I don't shoot 100 yards at anything more that 10x. I think I start trying to put body English on follow up shots to hit the first hole in the target. With scope at 10x it is easier to ignore previous shots.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

I tried 43.5-46 varget with 175's and never felt good about any of them out of my aac in an a3-5. Switched to 168 smks under 43.8 varget and they perform great from 100-500 yards for me.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alderleet</div><div class="ubbcode-body">r/guns</div></div>

Yeah because they would have a fucking clue.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SingleShot85</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2450 is dog shit w/ that bullet, put some pepper on that bullets ass 2650 minimum..... i bet that shit will strait'n right up.. </div></div>

2650 is the standard for factory loads like FGM in attempt to get approx. 1 moa from most rifles. I find using the same bullet (168) at 2600 is more accurate with a reload of 43.5 Reloader 15. That is with neck resize only and flash hole deburred. Groups stay within .5 MOA out to 200 meters on a calm day. Maximum effective group range is about 500 meters. Again on a calm day. Wind is reality. Best laid plans go to shit with wind. I'm guessing the shooter has some wind involvement with those groups setting aside the fundamentals up to and including trigger pull. I had a 90 degree variable 8 mph wind and was getting similiar groups at 200 meters this last weekend. Also, agree the MV is too low. You would expect groups like that at 300 meters on an average day. Even with all these years of combined experience the shooter is only going to find out with repeated trips to the range and keep an accurate log of the conditions as well as use that software to keep a library to compare and contrast over time. Set everything aside except the shooter and you can see that he is on target 60% of the time. With the 308 you have to be tucked in tight. Loosen up a little before the trigger pull and you will get what appear to be shots off target from the main group where the holes are touching each other. It can be any number of variables. But it usually the combination of the shooter and the environment. With that low of MV you should be able to call your shot just based on the trigger pull. You know if you pulled at the wrong instance or the wrong way right then and there.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

I wonder what rifle the sw118 was designed out of? So the sw118 is a 2630-2650 load. The standard for 175's is 2600fps out of a 24" barrel. I was about 1
Moa with the houge stock it came with. I had the rifle set in an McMillan HTG stock bedded in. I now shoot about .75 with it, I am also not the best group shooter, I shoot objects. It is a great off the shelf rifle and great for a budget build, but it is not dependable to do better than .5 moa. That is my personal experience, I like the rifle, it shoots the heavier projectiles for standard loads and sub sonic loads.

Also, 175 shine at distance, you will see then tighten up at longer ranges. Shoot some 168's at 100 you will probably see those groups tighten up a bit.

Zach
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Do you use mill brass ?
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

My son had great luck with the Hornady 168 gr Amax factory loads out of his AAC-SD, since you made a comment of not reloading give a box of these a try and see how she performs.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Yeah, the 168 AMAX was awesome in this rifle. I shot a empty can of tannerite 3 times at 1000 yards with that rifle. I have tons of 175s though, and that's all I really care to shoot long range. I sold the barreled action this morning though. Problem solved.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Well why I was asking you about MIL spec brass or not is I notice lately more custom reloading company's are using NATO brass and it will affect some guns. I have two gun custom built that come with a warning DO NOT SHOOT NATO brass ammo. The remy AAC will shoot both but I have found that .308WIN not NATO will shoot better in my gun.

And if you can hit a Tanerite can at a 1000y 3 times then I would keep the action. Was it a small bottle or 55gallon size? LOL
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well why I was asking you about MIL spec brass or not is I notice lately more custom reloading company's are using NATO brass and it will affect some guns. I have two gun custom built that come with a warning DO NOT SHOOT NATO brass ammo. The remy AAC will shoot both but I have found that .308WIN not NATO will shoot better in my gun.

And if you can hit a Tanerite can at a 1000y 3 times then I would keep the action. Was it a small bottle or 55gallon size? LOL</div></div> Which rifles come with the NATO brass warning? I have measured fc and LC NATO brass and it measures the same as Winchester 308 brass. I would use fc or LC NATO stamped brass over Winchester brass and the bonus is, it is cheaper.

Zach
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

For Randy from Landtec to build you a rifle you have to be very particular on weather you are shooting NATO or WIN brass. The over all lenght is not the issue,its the head-space.But in the manual received with the rifle it says DO NOT USE NATO ammo in this rifle. But if you specify the rifle is to be used with NATO ammo then the manual states that also. But as in the AAC rifle at ranges of 500 or so I saw a difference between ammo loaded with NATO verses with win brass.I know there are allot of factors that go into this NATO verse Standard that I personally can't check or prove but that was my experiences. I am sure the NATO ammo would fire and be fairly accurate but what are the long term problems who knows. I am sure there is a warning for a reason.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MECH1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For Randy from Landtec to build you a rifle you have to be very particular on weather you are shooting NATO or WIN brass. The over all lenght is not the issue,its the head-space.But in the manual received with the rifle it says DO NOT USE NATO ammo in this rifle. But if you specify the rifle is to be used with NATO ammo then the manual states that also. But as in the AAC rifle at ranges of 500 or so I saw a difference between ammo loaded with NATO verses with win brass.I know there are allot of factors that go into this NATO verse Standard that I personally can't check or prove but that was my experiences. I am sure the NATO ammo would fire and be fairly accurate but what are the long term problems who knows. I am sure there is a warning for a reason.</div></div> So there is a difference from NATO ammo and NATO brass. It is a pressure thing and not a brass thing. Just like with .223, and 5.56. One is about 7000 psi higher than the other.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Try some Alliant 2000MR powder!! Also with the NATO ammo....put it in an inline seating tool and seat the bullet downward .005" to .010" to break the bullet away from it's present neck tension!
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

Not just a pressure thing, go look at the design of the case. I believe the reason behind the warning has nothing to do with pressure maybe in a M14 or M1 I could see this but not a M40A1.I think it has to do with the chamber cut and optimized accuracy.
And as I said as does the web page it is ok to shoot both in my gun but it might not be as accurate.

Here is part of a web page I read on 308 vers 7.62

There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical).
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

I had a 300wsm sps varmint that would shoot 190vld's about .75moa at 100yds and as the range increased the load performed better. I have heard of this more with vld's than any other bullet though
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

178 amax and some arcomp will tighten up that group if you can operate that trigger.

whats the program your using for the groups, i have forgotten the name
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

I assume you aren't chasing bullet holes at 100 and are actually holding on a consistent point of aim. I know that's retarded, but I've seen people do it thinking the problem is them and not the rifle. My AAC-sd still has the factory tube and shoots 1.0 moa at 100 but .75ish from 200-600 yards. Holds true for GMM and my hand loads.
 
Re: 100 yard groups AAC-SD vs 200 yard groups.

indian behind the bow...

just kidding, i do all my load work up at 300-400 yards, my 6mm shoots 1.5 at 100 most days but half to sub half moa most longer ranges.
 
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