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Re: Stiller or savage?
better accuracy... probably not (barrel, stock, and bedding being the same)...
what a Stiller WILL give you is a much better feel and better resale value
better accuracy... probably not (barrel, stock, and bedding being the same)...
what a Stiller WILL give you is a much better feel and better resale value
Re: Stiller or savage?
There are too many variables to say X will be more accurate than Y.
Determine if you like the features of the Stiller and don't mind the cost.
Using both, you'll find the Stiller smoother, faster, and easy to run.
There are too many variables to say X will be more accurate than Y.
Determine if you like the features of the Stiller and don't mind the cost.
Using both, you'll find the Stiller smoother, faster, and easy to run.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jennifer Lopez or Rosie ODonnell?????
Both have attitude, both will get you some satisfaction perhaps but in the evenings which would you rather face across the dinner table after a long day together???? Oh, maybe a bit off topic comparison but....well....
I am leaning smooth, silky and clean Latino vs. fat uuuuuggllllyyyyyy noisy sloppy pig! Yer mileage may vary!
</div></div>
Love it. It's going to be mainly for yots and some target not to worried about how smooth it is but I want it to shoot bug holes. Thanks
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jennifer Lopez or Rosie ODonnell?????
Both have attitude, both will get you some satisfaction perhaps but in the evenings which would you rather face across the dinner table after a long day together???? Oh, maybe a bit off topic comparison but....well....
I am leaning smooth, silky and clean Latino vs. fat uuuuuggllllyyyyyy noisy sloppy pig! Yer mileage may vary!
Love it. It's going to be mainly for yots and some target not to worried about how smooth it is but I want it to shoot bug holes. Thanks
Re: Stiller or savage?
I'd prefer a Stiller myself, but a Savage is hardly comparable to Rosie O'Fat, and is VERY well made for a production action.
These guys "manage" to shoot fairly well with a Savage.
http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=1DoKxAoZh
I'd prefer a Stiller myself, but a Savage is hardly comparable to Rosie O'Fat, and is VERY well made for a production action.
These guys "manage" to shoot fairly well with a Savage.
http://www.savagearms.com/news/article/?id=1DoKxAoZh
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jennifer Lopez or Rosie ODonnell?????
Both have attitude, both will get you some satisfaction perhaps but in the evenings which would you rather face across the dinner table after a long day together???? Oh, maybe a bit off topic comparison but....well....
I am leaning smooth, silky and clean Latino vs. fat uuuuuggllllyyyyyy noisy sloppy pig! Yer mileage may vary!
</div></div>
WOW!!! Your replys are some of my favorites, and we think more a like than you know. That's a great analogy!!! I'm still laughing my ass off. That said, I'm use to going out with the Jeniffer Lopez type looks, so Stiller would be my choice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jennifer Lopez or Rosie ODonnell?????
Both have attitude, both will get you some satisfaction perhaps but in the evenings which would you rather face across the dinner table after a long day together???? Oh, maybe a bit off topic comparison but....well....
I am leaning smooth, silky and clean Latino vs. fat uuuuuggllllyyyyyy noisy sloppy pig! Yer mileage may vary!
WOW!!! Your replys are some of my favorites, and we think more a like than you know. That's a great analogy!!! I'm still laughing my ass off. That said, I'm use to going out with the Jeniffer Lopez type looks, so Stiller would be my choice.
Re: Stiller or savage?
Ok, ok, I'm kind of kidding. Savage is hard to beat for accuracy out of the box. I just happen to favor Stiller for personal reasons. I would buy a Savage.
Ok, ok, I'm kind of kidding. Savage is hard to beat for accuracy out of the box. I just happen to favor Stiller for personal reasons. I would buy a Savage.
Re: Stiller or savage?
Coyotes won't care how pretty the action or rifle is...if you are not into cosmetics..go Savage all the way.
Coyotes won't care how pretty the action or rifle is...if you are not into cosmetics..go Savage all the way.
Re: Stiller or savage?
No... Savage out of the box is pretty dam awesome. and you can even make it more awesome. I want to get a custom 5R barrel for my Savage only because the Savage barrel fouls too easily, but when it's clean I can't ask for anything more.
The Accutrigger is the only thing on the Savage I don't really like, it's not bad if you like 3 lb triggers, but I like my trigger around 1 lb or less.
This is basically a Stock Savage, only thing I did was bed the action and replaced the Accutrigger with a Rifle Basix Sav-2 Trigger.
No... Savage out of the box is pretty dam awesome. and you can even make it more awesome. I want to get a custom 5R barrel for my Savage only because the Savage barrel fouls too easily, but when it's clean I can't ask for anything more.
The Accutrigger is the only thing on the Savage I don't really like, it's not bad if you like 3 lb triggers, but I like my trigger around 1 lb or less.
This is basically a Stock Savage, only thing I did was bed the action and replaced the Accutrigger with a Rifle Basix Sav-2 Trigger.
Re: Stiller or savage?
I've owned both. Amusing metaphors aside, there is no single cut-and-dried answer.
If you want to do your own barrel swaps with nothing more than ~$100 worth of tools, then the Savage is the obvious choice. It will produce very good accuracy if combined with the right barrel and supporting gear. The feel of these actions isn't so hot; some of the features that lead to its accuracy also make the bolt feel a bit sloppy during cycling, and the bolt lift effort leaves a lot to be desired. There are also fewer options for aftermarket and supporting parts when it comes to the Savage action; everything from triggers to stocks and bottom metal will be a bit tougher to come by.
The Stiller is an excellent action; silky smooth, and built very robustly. It will require considerably more expertise and tooling - or the services of a gunsmith - if you want to rebarrel it yourself. Parts are plentiful, as it's compatible with most parts for Remington 700 actions. It is considerably more expensive than the Savage.
I think much will come down to your budget. If you can afford the expense of the Stiller action and the custom build required to turn it into a complete rifle, I doubt that you will be disappointed. But if the Savage has a price that is more digestible, then don't feel like you're leaving a lot of accuracy on the table by saving some money.
I've owned both. Amusing metaphors aside, there is no single cut-and-dried answer.
If you want to do your own barrel swaps with nothing more than ~$100 worth of tools, then the Savage is the obvious choice. It will produce very good accuracy if combined with the right barrel and supporting gear. The feel of these actions isn't so hot; some of the features that lead to its accuracy also make the bolt feel a bit sloppy during cycling, and the bolt lift effort leaves a lot to be desired. There are also fewer options for aftermarket and supporting parts when it comes to the Savage action; everything from triggers to stocks and bottom metal will be a bit tougher to come by.
The Stiller is an excellent action; silky smooth, and built very robustly. It will require considerably more expertise and tooling - or the services of a gunsmith - if you want to rebarrel it yourself. Parts are plentiful, as it's compatible with most parts for Remington 700 actions. It is considerably more expensive than the Savage.
I think much will come down to your budget. If you can afford the expense of the Stiller action and the custom build required to turn it into a complete rifle, I doubt that you will be disappointed. But if the Savage has a price that is more digestible, then don't feel like you're leaving a lot of accuracy on the table by saving some money.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jennifer Lopez or Rosie ODonnell?????
Both have attitude, both will get you some satisfaction perhaps but in the evenings which would you rather face across the dinner table after a long day together???? Oh, maybe a bit off topic comparison but....well....
I am leaning smooth, silky and clean Latino vs. fat uuuuuggllllyyyyyy noisy sloppy pig! Yer mileage may vary!
</div></div>
Guess you'd better look toward Surgeon after hearing this...would that qualify as Mila Kunis type action????
I think Savage is getting a pretty unfair comparison there.
That being said, with a Savage, a guy won't get the snob appeal of a custom action. There will be little to no envy on the line at the range. The Savage owner won't have the personal satisfaction of paying hefty gun-smithing charges, waiting for months and months, possibly up to a year, to get parts back, and then have the experience of taking a large hit in depreciation when they decide to sell said rifle, so they can "give the kids a Christmas" because he is a wage slave who bought into the hype that he was going to turn himself into Bob Lee Swagger with an elite action that he read about online. Thus, feeding his wannabe sniper delusions. No, a Savage is not svelte or exclusive, and its looks most likely will not raise eyebrows.
But, one of the most satisfying rifles to shoot in my safe is my 6BR Savage.
Hello...I'm a closet Savage shooter...
I say that after owning an Eric Reid built GA Precision, currently owning a Desert Tactical, FN A3G, custom R700, and multiple precision AR's and M14's. My Savage is totally custom, but I've never paid a gunsmith to perform any work on it. I've done all "gunsmithing" with basic tools, no lathe or fixtures, no mills or specialized tools. Total investment in the rifle including new barrel, Sav-2 trigger, was less than $600 thanks to a very sweet store closing deal on the factory rifle. With a $30 dollar barrel nut wrench, headspace gages, and a barrel vise, I've customized the rifle to my reloads. I can shoot holes in pennies at 200y with boring accuracy. Everybody that shoots it, is blown away by the accuracy and precision, and right after saying how impressed they are...most will say "too bad its a Savage."
My biggest complaint about Savage is their stock selection. They make a rifle that you can customize to your liking at home with nothing more than hand tools...but make finding a replacement stock a complete disaster by mixing bolt spacing and limiting options, so that stock makers avoid keeping much of anything on hand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jennifer Lopez or Rosie ODonnell?????
Both have attitude, both will get you some satisfaction perhaps but in the evenings which would you rather face across the dinner table after a long day together???? Oh, maybe a bit off topic comparison but....well....
I am leaning smooth, silky and clean Latino vs. fat uuuuuggllllyyyyyy noisy sloppy pig! Yer mileage may vary!
Guess you'd better look toward Surgeon after hearing this...would that qualify as Mila Kunis type action????
I think Savage is getting a pretty unfair comparison there.
That being said, with a Savage, a guy won't get the snob appeal of a custom action. There will be little to no envy on the line at the range. The Savage owner won't have the personal satisfaction of paying hefty gun-smithing charges, waiting for months and months, possibly up to a year, to get parts back, and then have the experience of taking a large hit in depreciation when they decide to sell said rifle, so they can "give the kids a Christmas" because he is a wage slave who bought into the hype that he was going to turn himself into Bob Lee Swagger with an elite action that he read about online. Thus, feeding his wannabe sniper delusions. No, a Savage is not svelte or exclusive, and its looks most likely will not raise eyebrows.
But, one of the most satisfying rifles to shoot in my safe is my 6BR Savage.
Hello...I'm a closet Savage shooter...
I say that after owning an Eric Reid built GA Precision, currently owning a Desert Tactical, FN A3G, custom R700, and multiple precision AR's and M14's. My Savage is totally custom, but I've never paid a gunsmith to perform any work on it. I've done all "gunsmithing" with basic tools, no lathe or fixtures, no mills or specialized tools. Total investment in the rifle including new barrel, Sav-2 trigger, was less than $600 thanks to a very sweet store closing deal on the factory rifle. With a $30 dollar barrel nut wrench, headspace gages, and a barrel vise, I've customized the rifle to my reloads. I can shoot holes in pennies at 200y with boring accuracy. Everybody that shoots it, is blown away by the accuracy and precision, and right after saying how impressed they are...most will say "too bad its a Savage."
My biggest complaint about Savage is their stock selection. They make a rifle that you can customize to your liking at home with nothing more than hand tools...but make finding a replacement stock a complete disaster by mixing bolt spacing and limiting options, so that stock makers avoid keeping much of anything on hand.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you want to do your own barrel swaps with nothing more than ~$100 worth of tools, then the Savage is the obvious choice. </div></div>
The Stiller has a pinned lug. You can have your smith just as easily spin multiple barrels or simply keep your numbers on hand to make future barrels. You simply need simple hand tools.
Before you say, "it has to be chambered", so did the Savage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Eric Bryant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If you want to do your own barrel swaps with nothing more than ~$100 worth of tools, then the Savage is the obvious choice. </div></div>
The Stiller has a pinned lug. You can have your smith just as easily spin multiple barrels or simply keep your numbers on hand to make future barrels. You simply need simple hand tools.
Before you say, "it has to be chambered", so did the Savage.
Re: Stiller or savage?
If it came down to $$$, and you had enough to get the Stiller action and put a rem700 take off barrel, or a Savage action and a custom pre-fit barrel. My choice would be the Savage. My stiller action is buttery smooth, but my Savages shoot well also.
If it came down to $$$, and you had enough to get the Stiller action and put a rem700 take off barrel, or a Savage action and a custom pre-fit barrel. My choice would be the Savage. My stiller action is buttery smooth, but my Savages shoot well also.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you say, "it has to be chambered", so did the Savage.</div></div>
The Savage can be chambered without a gunsmith ever touching the action. Hell, I can pick up pre-chambered Savage barrels all over the place and have them delivered in time to wrench on 'em this coming weekend.
Before the accusations of bias start flying, I sold all my Savages and now only own Remingtons/clones (including a gorgeous Stiller TAC30 that is sitting in my shop, awaiting a reamer arrival so I can screw on a barrel). Taking a fully DIY approach to a R700 is somewhat greater an undertaking, as I'm sure you understand.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you say, "it has to be chambered", so did the Savage.</div></div>
The Savage can be chambered without a gunsmith ever touching the action. Hell, I can pick up pre-chambered Savage barrels all over the place and have them delivered in time to wrench on 'em this coming weekend.
Before the accusations of bias start flying, I sold all my Savages and now only own Remingtons/clones (including a gorgeous Stiller TAC30 that is sitting in my shop, awaiting a reamer arrival so I can screw on a barrel). Taking a fully DIY approach to a R700 is somewhat greater an undertaking, as I'm sure you understand.
Re: Stiller or savage?
Boy it is apparent some of you have a sense of humor like a fuckin rock!!!!!! If you love your damn 'tinker toy' rifle,fine!
Guess my opinion needs more justification than some here. Now once again I am done with this thread and will surrender this once great site to all you smarter newbies and your attitudes!!!!
Boy it is apparent some of you have a sense of humor like a fuckin rock!!!!!! If you love your damn 'tinker toy' rifle,fine!
Guess my opinion needs more justification than some here. Now once again I am done with this thread and will surrender this once great site to all you smarter newbies and your attitudes!!!!
Re: Stiller or savage?
If you want a silky smooth bolt w/o the price of building on a Stiller, look at a Tikka or Sako. They are pretty glassy and around $600 so you can buy several for the price of a Stiller build. They give up nothing in accuracy either and have a fantastic adjustable trigger. Food for thought. I'm a big Savage fan, but have a few Tikka's also. I'll never own just one rifle, if I did, I would probably have an AIAW instead of a custom build. Just me though, YMMV.
If you want a silky smooth bolt w/o the price of building on a Stiller, look at a Tikka or Sako. They are pretty glassy and around $600 so you can buy several for the price of a Stiller build. They give up nothing in accuracy either and have a fantastic adjustable trigger. Food for thought. I'm a big Savage fan, but have a few Tikka's also. I'll never own just one rifle, if I did, I would probably have an AIAW instead of a custom build. Just me though, YMMV.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want a silky smooth bolt w/o the price of building on a Stiller, look at a Tikka or Sako. They are pretty glassy and around $600 so you can buy several for the price of a Stiller build. They give up nothing in accuracy either and have a fantastic adjustable trigger. Food for thought. I'm a big Savage fan, but have a few Tikka's also. I'll never own just one rifle, if I did, I would probably have an AIAW instead of a custom build. Just me though, YMMV. </div></div>
I have a tikka t3 and love it. Where an I get a tikka action (LH) for a .223
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hawk45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want a silky smooth bolt w/o the price of building on a Stiller, look at a Tikka or Sako. They are pretty glassy and around $600 so you can buy several for the price of a Stiller build. They give up nothing in accuracy either and have a fantastic adjustable trigger. Food for thought. I'm a big Savage fan, but have a few Tikka's also. I'll never own just one rifle, if I did, I would probably have an AIAW instead of a custom build. Just me though, YMMV. </div></div>
I have a tikka t3 and love it. Where an I get a tikka action (LH) for a .223
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: red hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's what behind the action that really counts!!!!
</div></div>
Agree totally with that, we've seen the very best guns from the top makers at our matches but somehow the lowly Savages have been at the top of the win list at each match and also the top overall wins for the season for points. But, you start looking at the shooters and you'll see that most of the top place finishers are seasoned match shooters with quite a bit of experience in both matches and also LR hunting experience.
I still think an action is an action is an action but what you put around it in the way of quality components is what makes it all work, then needing a good shooter to make it all come together. Some might be sexier looking, some might be smoother, some might be lighter or heavier or have some other mystic about them. Nice thing about the Savage actions and others are copying is the floating bolt head and how easy it is to work on yourself and changing calibers. Too many times I've seen a common gun being shot by an uncommon shooter and kicking everyones butt.
Learn to shoot what ya got and update as needed and don't expect to buy your way into the top of the pack.
Topstrap
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: red hawk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's what behind the action that really counts!!!!
Agree totally with that, we've seen the very best guns from the top makers at our matches but somehow the lowly Savages have been at the top of the win list at each match and also the top overall wins for the season for points. But, you start looking at the shooters and you'll see that most of the top place finishers are seasoned match shooters with quite a bit of experience in both matches and also LR hunting experience.
I still think an action is an action is an action but what you put around it in the way of quality components is what makes it all work, then needing a good shooter to make it all come together. Some might be sexier looking, some might be smoother, some might be lighter or heavier or have some other mystic about them. Nice thing about the Savage actions and others are copying is the floating bolt head and how easy it is to work on yourself and changing calibers. Too many times I've seen a common gun being shot by an uncommon shooter and kicking everyones butt.
Learn to shoot what ya got and update as needed and don't expect to buy your way into the top of the pack.
Topstrap
Re: Stiller or savage?
This plate at 1110 yds didn't know it was getting shot it with a lowly Stevens/Savage build and the yotes won't either. First 4 shots between my two fingers and dropped the 5th shot 5" low. Glasses are for scale. The Stiller will be much much slicker, smoother functioning and faster, but accuracy differences probably won't be quite as noticeable.
This plate at 1110 yds didn't know it was getting shot it with a lowly Stevens/Savage build and the yotes won't either. First 4 shots between my two fingers and dropped the 5th shot 5" low. Glasses are for scale. The Stiller will be much much slicker, smoother functioning and faster, but accuracy differences probably won't be quite as noticeable.
Re: Stiller or savage?
For the same price of the stiller why not just go with the best of both worlds and get a Big Horn action? Floating bolt head like a savage and considered one of the smoothest 700 clones out there.
For the same price of the stiller why not just go with the best of both worlds and get a Big Horn action? Floating bolt head like a savage and considered one of the smoothest 700 clones out there.
Re: Stiller or savage?
Not one of the experienced guys around here but in my opinion I think it all depends on what you want and your expectations of the action. If you asked this question then either one will probably be accurate enough. Now the next question will be what are your expectation for ease of bolt lift and slickness of the action. I'd try a Savage out and if it doesn't bother you then it's probably a good choice.
Not one of the experienced guys around here but in my opinion I think it all depends on what you want and your expectations of the action. If you asked this question then either one will probably be accurate enough. Now the next question will be what are your expectation for ease of bolt lift and slickness of the action. I'd try a Savage out and if it doesn't bother you then it's probably a good choice.
Re: Stiller or savage?
The Corvette vs. Ferarri comparison seems pretty valid.
For the price of a TAC30 you could buy a Savage/Stevens action, send it to SSS or Stockade for a time/true job to slick up the bolt, get a quality prefit barrel and probably have money left over for a scope base, aftermarket trigger and a portion of a stock.
Each shooter places different values on different attributes...only you can decide to spend your money.
The Corvette vs. Ferarri comparison seems pretty valid.
For the price of a TAC30 you could buy a Savage/Stevens action, send it to SSS or Stockade for a time/true job to slick up the bolt, get a quality prefit barrel and probably have money left over for a scope base, aftermarket trigger and a portion of a stock.
Each shooter places different values on different attributes...only you can decide to spend your money.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This plate at 1110 yds didn't know it was getting shot it with a lowly Stevens/Savage build and the yotes won't either. First 4 shots between my two fingers and dropped the 5th shot 5" low. Glasses are for scale. The Stiller will be much much slicker, smoother functioning and faster, but accuracy differences probably won't be quite as noticeable.
</div></div>
That's cool. What caliber is that?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This plate at 1110 yds didn't know it was getting shot it with a lowly Stevens/Savage build and the yotes won't either. First 4 shots between my two fingers and dropped the 5th shot 5" low. Glasses are for scale. The Stiller will be much much slicker, smoother functioning and faster, but accuracy differences probably won't be quite as noticeable.
That's cool. What caliber is that?
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the same price of the stiller why not just go with the best of both worlds and get a Big Horn action? Floating bolt head like a savage and considered one of the smoothest 700 clones out there. </div></div>
For another best of both worlds look at a Shilen DGR action (made for Shilen by Stiller). The DGR is a rem 700 clone, but with barrel nut and floating bolt head like Savage.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the same price of the stiller why not just go with the best of both worlds and get a Big Horn action? Floating bolt head like a savage and considered one of the smoothest 700 clones out there. </div></div>
For another best of both worlds look at a Shilen DGR action (made for Shilen by Stiller). The DGR is a rem 700 clone, but with barrel nut and floating bolt head like Savage.
Re: Stiller or savage?
Unless you just got an extra grand burnin a hole in ur pocket. keep the salvage. there's just too much you can do with it to beat the "better" actions for cheap. savage is the black sheep of the rifle. world. all the big money guys hate it, but it flat out shoots just as good.
Unless you just got an extra grand burnin a hole in ur pocket. keep the salvage. there's just too much you can do with it to beat the "better" actions for cheap. savage is the black sheep of the rifle. world. all the big money guys hate it, but it flat out shoots just as good.
Re: Stiller or savage?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to have a Stiller but for now my Savages do everything needed and then some. Once I can out shoot it, I might look into another action. </div></div>
You'll be long dead before that happens. I still regret selling my stevens. It wasn't the smoothest bolt lift but never did anything to smooth it out. Still shot lights out over my now trued rem700.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd love to have a Stiller but for now my Savages do everything needed and then some. Once I can out shoot it, I might look into another action. </div></div>
You'll be long dead before that happens. I still regret selling my stevens. It wasn't the smoothest bolt lift but never did anything to smooth it out. Still shot lights out over my now trued rem700.
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