Die Question

[Mike McBride]

Is there a functional difference between sizing with a body die or a full length bushing die with the bushing removed?

Of the competetion type seating dies that feature a micrometer like adjustment and stem that contacts near the ogive, which is the best in quality and why? Is there another that may be of greater value--ie almost as good but costs less?

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Die Question

For the first question, basicaly no difference, but you still need to size the neck.
Second, it is just a matter of brand preference.
I'll get alot of argument but, Redding is at the top of the food chain. Period.
Why, becuase Rick Jamison said so.

 

[Mike McBride]

Re: Die Question

Thanks--that agrees 100% with what I suspected, but my suspects are proven wrong more often than I care to admit.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Die Question

"which is the best in quality and why? Is there another that may be of greater value--ie almost as good but costs less?"

Forster's, and they give up nothing in effectiveness. Redding just copied the Forster full lenght body sleeve design and shined up the exterior a bit. No other threaded 'competition' seaters are in the same category as those two. And it takes user skill to achieve much of what they offer, they are not automatically better.

Micrometer heads are user aids, they don't add a thing to the quality of the ammo produced.

All seating stem plugs contact the ogive, that being the entire tapered surface between the meplat and shank. We really don't want a seater to contact very near the shank diameter, the open end would be so thin it would easily split under seating pressure.

 

[Thor2j]

Re: Die Question

I have 2 redding and one forster on the way. There's a really good article comparing the two that is sure someone can post the link. It gave the edge to forster especially for 30% less.

 

[Mike McBride]

Re: Die Question

May I ask another question regarding the micrometer head?

I assume that the bullet seating depth may be precisely dialed to within a thousandth of an inch, and then no locking mechanism must be engaged that shifts the setting. I also assume these adjustments are repeatable. My assumptions lead me to believe the micrometer screw can save me considerable time IF I want precision. Are these assumptions correct?

I also assume that these adjustments will be subject to the same screw slop as any micrometer so adjustments must always be made going the same direction, and that these things are delicate if I expect the dial values to remain accurate. Are they on a 40 TPI pitch where one revolution 0.025 in or do the have even finer threads?

 

[Mike McBride]

Re: Die Question

Thank you gentlemen. With your opinions I could at least narrow it to Redding and Forster. A quick Google found some useful links including:

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=35109

which gives the edge to Forster as the better value. Most opinions seem a coin toss apart, but this article gave reasons.

A close up photo also shows that both move 0.050 per revolution meaning that they have 20 TPI lead screws which should make them more robust than a standard micrometer, but will probably require even more careful technique for repeatable results.

I can live with that. I do get frustrated with loosen a lock-not, calculate how much turn, but guess when it is turned enough, then change the whole damn thing when you tighten the lock-nut.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: Die Question

If I recall, the Forster is .020" per turn. It has an o ring in it to help make the adjustments precise.

I'm not sure that it will save you that much time, but there is really no way to get the ogive seating depth as consistent on a traditional die. If you want every round the same, you have to seat everything long, then measure each one, then adjust the die for each one and re-seat.

The other thing the micrometer dies are good at is chasing your lands. If you just leave the die set, then you just add .005" every 200 rounds or so and you should stay in the same window for the life of the barrel. Hard to make that fine adjustment on a traditional die.

 

[Mike McBride]

Re: Die Question

I am just now moving from reloading to handloading. Do I understand that one must seat a bullet, measure in a comparator, screw in the seater and reseat for the home-run, then back off the seating stem to start over for the next round?

May I ask hpw much variation to expect? Is this process required only on VLD bullets that are seated in the lands, or is it also relevant on SMK, where the common concensus seems to be that some freebore doesn't bode ill for the tangent ogive?

I have learned much through this forum, yet it appears have much farther to go.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: Die Question

First, the better your chamber is, the less it will matter. Second, it will matter more for VLD-type bullets as opposed to traditional ogive bullets. Third, my opinion is that if you don't know you need exact seating depths due to trial and error, or every thing else being perfect and still getting anomalies, then you probably don't.

With that said, the micrometer die set from Forster is only about $30 more than the standard, so you can probably justify the purchase and use it as much or as little as your time allows. That would certainly allow for experimentation.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Die Question

I believe there is some bumpf if the above...either die will get you where you want to go. I think that proper case prep will get you better OAL repeatability and least runout than fiddling with the die make or model. Size the case in a body die to correct shoulder bump. Get the right neck tension, about .002-3 ...done with the Lee Collet or bushing die. Trim to same lengths. VLD chamfer the mouths. Spin a bore brush with 0000 steel wool inside the necks to polish both the neck and the trimmed mouth.Dry lube the insides of the neck with graphite suspension (or HBN suspended in alcohol). Seat the bullet half way, turn the case 180 degrees and seat it the rest of the way. That gives me the most consistent results I have found in 55 years of trying. JMHO

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Die Question

No rifle cares where a meplat hangs in space, all that matters is the jump to the rifling. For common factory rigs that's commonly from 15 to 40 thousanths; often more, rarely less.

Most rifles and loads have a jump tolerance range of as much as 15 thou so find the range of OAL that makes no difference in your rig and seat in the middle of it, then normal small variations won't make a bit of difference.

Most OAL variation comes from meaningless slight differences in the meplat. Next most common is operator variations on the press lever. Some variation can come from small differences in press flex due to differences in seating pressure because of so called 'bullet tension.' Virtually no OAL difference is because of the seater, any seater.

My lengthy seating experiments have shown me that, with my seaters, once a bullet starts slanted into a neck then no amount of turning the cartridge will do a thing to improve runout.