6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

[Fisky]

Hey guys, I'm looking for some help from the experts here. I've called Redding and I have a call into Robert Whitley as well. Let me say I've very new to this doughnut thing, and neck turning and reaming so I'll try to explain the best I can.

I'm forming Win 243 brass into 6.5 SLR by running it through a Redding type S FL bushing die. I'm getting a doughnut on the inside. I became aware of this from some pressure problems, as well as seating bullets. I was getting up to 10 thou variances when seating bullets, some seating easier, harder, etc.

My gunsmith and I at first tried to neck turn. This did not work, because of the type S die not sizing the entire neck. We tried expanding the neck out and turning the doughnut but of course it was still there. So next we tried inside reaming. We took some fired cases and sized them, and the gunsmith inside reamed them on his lathe. This seemed to eliminate the doughnut. When seating bullets with the few cases we did the bullets seated smooth as butter. And I was only getting 1-2 thou variances.

The problem with this method is I have to fire my brass before I can ream (so I'm being told). I don't want to do that if I don't have to. Seems like a waste of time, barrel life and components. So what are my best options here? I've talked to Redding about having a standard FL die made to form my cases. They are about $170 (not really the issue) and 20-25 weeks out (the issue). After that I'd run them through an expander and outside neck turn. Will that work??? Other, better options? I have not tried Remington brass yet, but I should. Also, if I have to go through all this prep work to make Winchester and Remington work, I might as well run Lapua brass instead.

I'd like to get into neck turning for my other cartridges anyways, so the cost of the neck turner is a moot issue.


Thanks,
Fisky

 

[GreatGonzo]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Why don't you order a die reamer from PTG and make your own reloading die. That would likely save you some time off that 20-22 weeks.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

I think you should grab some fresh Winchester 243 brass, expand to 6.5mm, and then neckturn batches of 5 to different depths (not neck thickness, but rather, get into the shoulder a little more on each different batch). Label/Documnet each batch so you don't lose track.

Reload these batches a couple times and get a feel for which batches DO and DON'T develop donuts.

Neckturn the rest of your brass to match the spec of the batch that didn't get donuts.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

For the brass that's already been fired:

Using a dremel fitted with a cut-off wheel, grind some flutes into the end of your neckturning mandrel/pilot. This will essentially allow you to ream and neckturn at the same time.

Forster neckturning mandrel/pilots are heat treated and hard, and hold a good edge. I have been doing this for my short action 284 (bullets are seated way down below the neck/shoulder junction), and it's been working nicely.

 

[Adam B]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the brass that's already been fired:

Using a dremel fitted with a cut-off wheel, grind some flutes into the end of your neckturning mandrel/pilot. This will essentially allow you to ream and neckturn at the same time.

Forster neckturning mandrel/pilots are heat treated and hard, and hold a good edge. I have been doing this for my short action 284 (bullets are seated way down below the neck/shoulder junction), and it's been working nicely.</div></div>

good idea, I am going to try this!

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Turbo, does this K&M carbide cutting pilot basically inside ream at the same time as turning?

http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/neck-t...ting-pilot.html

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think you should grab some fresh Winchester 243 brass, expand to 6.5mm, and then neckturn batches of 5 to different depths (not neck thickness, but rather, get into the shoulder a little more on each different batch). Label/Documnet each batch so you don't lose track.


</div></div>

Just to clarify, you're saying I should run fresh brass through an expander die and neck turn BEFORE running said brass through my 6.5SLR die, correct?

 

[memilanuk]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Get ahold of L.E. Wilson Tool & Die, and talk to them about ordering inside neck reamers (works with their case trimmer setups). They can be had sized for fired neck dimensions, so how you later size the neck shouldn't matter.

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Get ahold of L.E. Wilson Tool & Die, and talk to them about ordering inside neck reamers (works with their case trimmer setups). They can be had sized for fired neck dimensions, so how you later size the neck shouldn't matter. </div></div>

That is essentially what I got going on right now I believe. The smith figured out what size reamer I needed to ream my fired cases and he just happened to have one in his shop. We chucked it into his lathe and that's what we used to ream the first test sample. It worked, however the cases need to be fired prior to this method.

What I'm looking for is a way to tackle this with fresh brass as well, so I"m ready to go right after forming brass via the die, donut free. The problem, I believe, is the type S FL bushing die only sizes the front 2/3rds of the neck, leaving the donut untouched.

 

[texasleftychef]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

IMO the problem stems from using the bushing and it not sizing far enough down on the neck. I think it might work if you used the FL resizer without the bushing or expander ball, expanded it with a Sinclair type expander to 6.5 and then neck turned it all the way to the shoulder. By using the expander all the donut should be on the outside and you should be able to turn it off.

Also for a FL sizing die that you would only need to use once in the process, could you use a 6.5 Creedmoor die or another with the right dimensions and washer or o-ring to raise it up?

Sorry if this doesn't help. Just ideas.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

The problem sounds a lot like what people used to have to endure when there was no commercial brass for 6.5-08 (later .260 Rem), or the available choices (Remington) were unsatisfactory. It was very common to form cases from either Winchester or Lapua .243 Win brass. IIRC donuts were more prevalent when using Lapua brass because the shoulder is significantly thicker on those cases, and now formed the bottom part of the neck as well. I'm kind of surprised that you have such problems with Winchester brass.

That is pretty much what the carbide neck reamer mandrel on K&M neck turners is intended for, AFAIK. Once you've F/L sized the neck, you should be able to run the reamer in and knock off any donut at the neck-shoulder junction. If the bushing isn't going quite low enough on the neck, even with it all the way in, and you don't have a F/L (non-bushing) die available... then I'm not sure what to tell you. For a .308 this is the sort of thing I keep a Forster 'National Match' F/L small-base die around for.

Maybe a Lee Collet die for .260 Rem would squeeze the neck down around the mandrel all the way to the neck-shoulder junction and do the trick?

 

[Hondo64d]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Couldn't you just run virgin 7mm-08 brass through the die? I may be wrong, but from what I understand, donuts usually from when necking up, not down.

John

 

[memilanuk]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

That might work... but he'll most likely end up having to turn necks for clearance afterwards. Less of a PITA than inside neck reaming though...

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hondo64d</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Couldn't you just run virgin 7mm-08 brass through the die? I may be wrong, but from what I understand, donuts usually from when necking up, not down.

John </div></div>

I'm also bumping the shoulder back quite a bit, creating a longer neck. I believe that may be the culprit of the donut.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Fisky:

What COAL are you loading to? A large part of the SLR concept is a longer neck, and a lower NSJ.

Could you just lengthen your COAL a little and "fuggettabotitt"?

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fisky:

What COAL are you loading to? A large part of the SLR concept is a longer neck, and a lower NSJ.

Could you just lengthen your COAL a little and "fuggettabotitt"? </div></div>

I do everything with a comparator off the ogive, and I don't have my info in front of me at the moment, but if I recall correctly, I'm loading 140 Hybrids to 2.910" COAL, 10 thou off the lands. Awhile back we actually cut a case open to see where my bullet was seated relative to the donut @ 2.910". If I remember correctly, it was not an option to try to seat above the donut. Too much jam.


I don't know the specifics yet, but my gunsmith is pretty confident he can make a modification to the die so it will size the entire neck. Hopefully that will be the solution to the problem.

I guess one good thing that may come from all this is, it won't hurt me to switch from Winchester to Lapua brass now. If I'm putting in the work to remove donuts, might as well be utilizing Lapua brass.

 

[turbo54]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

I can't think of a magazine that will accomodate 2.910", and not ~2.960".

Maybe the smith could just throat your chamber a little more and again, get the bullet shank north of the NSJ...

...at 2.910", you gotta be CLOSE right now...

Messing around at my bench I figured a 7SLR would have the bullet north of the NSJ @ 2.925"ish - with a .284" 175smk which is 1.450" long.

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

You are correct, I'm running a Wyatts box so I can go up to 2.995"...

I'll try to dig up that cut case or cut another open and take another look.

 

[MTETM]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

I find this interesting and wonder what we are doing differently. We have been shooting the 6.5 SLR all year and have not had any issues with doughnuts. We have 550 Winchester 243 brass formed to the SLR.

I use a Redding bushing die, expand the cases the first time with a 6.5 taper expanded die, then no expander, just the neck bushing. I don't run the bushing all the way to the shoulder, but damn near...

Some of the cases have 8 firings. We shoot either 142 SMK's or 140 Hornady HPBT's with 4350...

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

What diameter bushing are you sizing with? Curious.

 

[MTETM]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What diameter bushing are you sizing with? Curious.</div></div>

Me....290 bushing..... 30 thou off the shoulder

 

[427Cobra]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Why not simply use Win 7-08 brass

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not simply use Win 7-08 brass </div></div>

You are the second person to suggest that. Can you explain to my why that may not cause a donut? I was told it's always better to neck up vs neck down?

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MTETM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find this interesting and wonder what we are doing differently. We have been shooting the 6.5 SLR all year and have not had any issues with doughnuts. We have 550 Winchester 243 brass formed to the SLR.

I use a Redding bushing die, expand the cases the first time with a 6.5 taper expanded die, then no expander, just the neck bushing. I don't run the bushing all the way to the shoulder, but damn near...

Some of the cases have 8 firings. We shoot either 142 SMK's or 140 Hornady HPBT's with 4350...
</div></div>

Interesting. I formed my brass entirely via the Redding bushing die. Maybe that's the difference? But I do know of another guy on here who also formed his brass the same way I did, and had no donut issues....

Who knows, maybe it was just my lot of Win brass. But I'm also using a .290 bushing, so that tells me your and my brass was petty close to same neck thickness.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fisky</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why not simply use Win 7-08 brass </div></div>

You are the second person to suggest that. Can you explain to my why that may not cause a donut? I was told it's always better to neck up vs neck down?

</div></div>

Well when you neck up part of the shoulder becomes neck, shoulders are thicker than necks, hence donuts, when necking down only neck is resized. if you must use 243 brass I suggest necking it up to 6.5 with the expander mandrel, make sure to expand the entire neck, then FL size with a non bushing 260rem die, again use the expnder mandrel and finally neck turn the entire neck and 1/32 of the shoulder, now reform to 6.5SLR

 

[MTETM]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fisky</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MTETM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I find this interesting and wonder what we are doing differently. We have been shooting the 6.5 SLR all year and have not had any issues with doughnuts. We have 550 Winchester 243 brass formed to the SLR.

I use a Redding bushing die, expand the cases the first time with a 6.5 taper expanded die, then no expander, just the neck bushing. I don't run the bushing all the way to the shoulder, but damn near...

Some of the cases have 8 firings. We shoot either 142 SMK's or 140 Hornady HPBT's with 4350...
</div></div>

Interesting. I formed my brass entirely via the Redding bushing die. Maybe that's the difference? But I do know of another guy on here who also formed his brass the same way I did, and had no donut issues....

Who knows, maybe it was just my lot of Win brass. But I'm also using a .290 bushing, so that tells me your and my brass was petty close to same neck thickness. </div></div>

I use a tapered expander in the Redding Bushing die, only the first time when necking up...

What is the headspace measurement of your fired brass?

 

[bricktop]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

Out of curiosity, did you use the 6.5 SLR/S (0.055" FB), the standard long-throat (0.160" FB), or some other free-bore reamer?

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

I used the SLR/S reamer, from PTG. It was checked with 2 different optical comparators and found to be within spec....

We modified my die so now it will size the entire neck. I can then run the brass through an expander and neck turn like all of you. We knew going into it that the die might be "ruined" and would only be good for prepping brass to be neck turned. Turned out to be the case, as newly formed brass will chamber very tightly, too tight. So I had to order another die from Whitley. The good news is I didn't have to wait 20-25 weeks and pay $170 +.

I also got some Rem 260 brass coming and at some point once hunting seasons are over with I'll form some of that up via the way I formed this 243 brass, and see if I get donuts with that.

For now, problem appears to be resolved. We turned a few after running them through the modified die and cut into them, and it looks like no donut. I'll know for sure once I get to seating some bullets.

 

[bricktop]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

You can always get a 6.5mm throating reamer and push it out a bit if you want to keep the boat-tail above the donut and have room in the mag to spare. This is supposed to be one of the features of the long neck (i.e. lets you use a lot of different bullets with various bearing surface and keep the boat-tail above the neck-shoulder junction) - just a matter of having enough freebore. Of course if you are at your mag limit then this might not be something you want to persue, however, the bench-rest guys have know for a long time that for best accuracy, keep the boat-tail/bearing surface area out of the donut zone.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/320399/...igh-speed-steel

 

[Fisky]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

UPDATE: To those interested, or dealing with the same problem as I...

My new die came and they made some changes to it as it was set up to work the entire neck area. I am just assuming here, but I'd say other people were getting donuts as well and they needed a way for people to neck turn.

Also, we formed new REMINGTON 260 brass into SLR in my new die, and there were NO donuts. So if you have one of Whitley's newly spec'd dies, and don't want to deal with donuts and neck turning, go with Remington 260 brass.

 

[427Cobra]

Re: 6.5mm Super LR - Best Way to Handle Doughnut?

With Rem 260 brass I only get 5-6 loads and the primer pockets are toast, with the SLR I bet that number will be less, I have since switched to Win 7-08 brass, now cases last 20-25 loads(of course I anneal) so maybe try some Win 7-08 in the SLR and let us know how it works.