Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

[Grizzdude]

Well I've been breaking in the barrel and only have 7 shots through my Savage 110ba 338. I'm using factory loaded hornady match amunition. Since the first shot I noticed the bolt sticking and I would have to pull up a little hard on the bolt handle to get it to unstick. This only happens with a fired round, new bullets go in and extract smooth. I've heard of the savage 110ba's not liking hornady brass and causing sticking issues, but I noticed slight scratches on the rear of the fired brass casings. Also noticed a scratch or slight dent on the bolt face where the casings get scratched also. Just As I was taking the pictures I noticed what looks like another small dent on the bolt face where the edge of the primer would sit, this must have just happened after the 7th shot because I did not notice this before. Is this something I should contact Savage about? will it affect accuracy? could it hurt the brass?

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Re: Blot faced dent's? 338 lapua

My hornady brass looked exactly the same as yours, except to extract required a wooden block and quite a bit of force. The gouge on the bolt face however, that's not something I'd write off.

Brand new rifle, call'em up, send it back. I sent mine back and they had to deburr the bolt and clean chamber. Haven't tested to see if that fixed the Hornady extraction issue yet, haven't been able to get to the range.

Fill out the warranty card if you haven't, call them and ask them what they think.

 

[pyrofx]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

Gas leakage from around a primer is what it looks like .

Greg

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

4th picture, the 3rd round from the left. That looks like the one that could have given you the gouge. Looking at the picture, on the right seems to be a flattened portion of the primer from rotation during the extraction.

I'd take a look at that case more in depth but still, call Savage tell them the issue. If it's anything like the rep I got for my 110ba, first thing he's gonna ask is if you're using Hornady Brass. He'll suggest trying a few different brands of ammo, see how that works and tell you that all testing done on premises is conducted with Black Hills Ammunition and that a lot of the 110ba have had issues with Hornady since they've switched to a softer brass (Don't know the specifics but that's what I was told on the phone)

Here's the steps I took before sending mine back for warranty

1) Bought a few boxes of .338, factory loads (Hand loads void your warranty) Lapua, Hornday, Prvi Partisan (couldn't get my hands on Black Hills unfortunately)

2) Fired 5 rounds of each brand, let the rifle sit for a minute or two between each shot to ensure cold barrel and action each time.

3) Recorded results and marked the cases with a sharpie

4) Wrote a nice letter with name address, serial number of rifle and a detailed explanation of the problem and what (if anything) I've done to the rifle including bolt greasing and compounds used during the initial, pre-fire cleaning.

5) Bagged each SPENT CASING (do NOT under any circumstances send live ammo with the rifle to them asking them to use this to test) and included a note with each brand detailing the performance

For example:
Hornady: Fired flawlessly, bolt handle difficult to lift, rearward motion impossible without aid of other leverage to extract spent round, occurred with each shot

Lapua: Round one fired and extracted without issue. Round 2 resulted in stiff bolt lift, but normal extraction. Round 3 resulted in normal bolt lift but more force then normal to extract from the chamber

Prvi Partisan: Round 2 and 5 resulted in heavy bolt lift and difficult extraction, Rounds 1, 3, and 4 operated normally

Box it all up as best you can with all the parts that came with it, tape the letter to the rifle and send it back.

Mine came back maybe a week after I sent it in with a nice warranty receipt explaining everything that was done. My greatest fear of the whole scenario was them just sending it back saying they couldn't find anything wrong while testing with the Black Hills lol

Best of luck to you Grizzdude

 

[Altnews]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

This looks like an overpressure situation. The primer flattening and difficulty opening the bolt indicates overpressure. In a semi-auto gun (like my LaRue OBR .308) you get "pressure swiping" which is a mark on the case head as the case sticks in the chamber for a fraction of a second as the bolt turns to eject.

The most likely cause for this is that your chamber throat is a few 10/1000s to short, and/or the chamber is very slightly undersized.

One of the keys to accuracy in either a bolt or semi gun is how far the projectile has to "jump" to contact the lands in the throat of the barrel. Extreme high precision shooters who handload will use various methods to determine exactly what the maximum overall length of the cartridge must be in order for the ogive of the projectile to just barely NOT touch the lands. I use Dykem steel bluing (a purple marking liquid painted on steel when laying out and scribing lines and holes on steel) and a set of dummy rounds using ONCE-FIRED and carefully resized and trimmed cases to determine the exact bullet seating depth that keeps the ogive just off the lands.

If the overall length is too long on any specific cartridge, when you close the bolt the ogive is physically jammed against the lands, and this, for reasons I don't clearly understand, can cause a massive increase in chamber pressure as the round goes off, sometimes to dangerous levels.

The marks on your bolt face and the primer flattening are clearly indicative of overpressure and I suspect that what you have is a "tight" chamber and throat that doesn't handle factory-loaded ammo well because of the manufacturing tolerances in OAL that occur with all factory ammo.

You can test this by using a precision micrometer OAL length gauge that simulates the throat where it contacts the ogive of the projectile on a new box of factory ammo.

Mike every round and record the precise OAL on a matrix chart showing which round is which. Systematically load and shoot one round at a time, placing the empty case back in the same position, and record any other evidence, such as difficulty in opening the bolt.

When you've shot the entire box, inspect each case for primer flattening or pressure swiping (if it's a semi) and note the evidence next to the OAL measurement for the respective round on the matrix chart.

I'm betting that you will find a correlation between "long" OAL's and indications of overpressure.

In precision rifles the manufacturers tend to make the chambers and throats "tight" as compared to an ordinary combat weapon precisely to enhance accuracy, and they probably assume that anyone who is really interested in precision shooting knows about the effects of OAL on accuracy and chamber pressure, and they expect real shooters to hand-load their ammo to very precise specifications that take advantage of the precision of the chamber to maximize accuracy.

As good as factory "match" ammunition may be, there is simply no substitute for a worked-up load for your specific rifle, which will give you both maximum accuracy out of THAT weapon and will also give you the very best possible repeatability.

You can also get a glue-on stress gauge and reader that allows you to expoxy (temporarily) the stress gauge to the outside of your chamber and record the actual chamber pressure as indicated by the bulging of the metal. This can be expensive, but it can also give you good data on the accuracy of your hand-load and the overall spread on velocity/pressure differences, which can help in diagnosing accuracy problems that may be solved by changing primers, powder, cases, projectiles, seating depth, sizing and all the other parameters that high precision shooters must consider when working up a load.

You should also chronograph each round you fire and record those results as well when trying to diagnose problems or work up a load.

You're not likely to damage your barrel/chamber with minor overpressure, you'll wear out your bolt first. As you can see, whatever was between the bolt face and the cartridge head was hard enough to dent steel. This can be caused by debris, from carbon buildup to grains of sand or metal shavings finding its way onto the case head or bolt face. This would also change the headspacing and serve to push the round further into the chamber than normal.

Cleanliness is next to accuracy, and something as simple as a tiny grain of sand on your case head can cause real problems.

Remember that it's not just the bolt face that takes a pounding in an overpressure situation, it's also the locking lugs on both the bolt and the chamber. Shoot overpressure rounds too often and your bolt lockup will loosen enough to affect accuracy.

Short of checking and perhaps re-seating any commercial over-length rounds using a properly adjusted seating die, the only solution is to hone he throat a tiny amount to allow a few 10/1000s of an inch more space between the maximum OAL spec for the ammo you use and the lands. It doesn't take much reaming/honing at all, so don't overdo it. There are folks who manufacture and sell chamber/throat reamers in specific sizes just to deal with these sorts of problems. They are quite expensive however, and you'll only use it once per rifle.

That's why checking each round for OAL and reseating the bullet even in commercial ammo is a necessary step for precision shooting.

And when you do that, you should also measure, rate and segregate ammo according to its concentricity, which means the amount of "runout" in the projectile as it's seated in the case. You do this by chucking the round in a trimmer or other holder and using a dial gauge meter to measure how close to the centerline of the case the widest part of the ogive is.

I segregate my commercial .338 Lapua Magnum rounds into three categories
< 0.001 runout; 0.002 to 0.003 runout; and > 0.003 runout.

The small runout rounds, after being checked for OAL and reseated (and rechecked for runout after reseating), are designated as my critical high-performance rounds. The mid range are my general accuracy shooting range ammo, and the > than 0.003 are used for playtime and plinking where maximum accuracy is not a factor.

Consistency in your ammunition is absolutely critical to accuracy, and factory ammo is not nearly as precise as it could be, even the expensive "match" ammo, which has higher standards than regular ammo, but which still has manufacturing tolerances that are greater than a true precision shooter can tolerate.

I hope this helps.

 

[Altnews]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MilsurpShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1) Bought a few boxes of .338, factory loads (Hand loads void your warranty)...
</div></div>

This statement is not true. The federal Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which applies not just to automobiles, says that a manufacturer cannot simply void your warranty for using "aftermarket" (read: handload) parts in your car/rifle. They are obligated to prove that the aftermarket part (handload) actually CAUSED the damage you are claiming under warranty.

This law was put into effect because, specifically, auto manufacturers were voiding entire vehicle warranties because someone installed aftermarket spark plug wires or some other aftermarket accessory that had nothing to do with the warranty failure.

This law applies to all consumer warranties.

For a rifle manufacturer to void your warranty it must be prepared to PROVE that the handload ammunition was the cause of the damage. Now, that can be easy to do, especially if you blow up the chamber on your rifle by accidentally double-charging a round, but it is NOT AUTOMATIC that using a hand-load in your rifle "voids your warranty" NO MATTER WHAT THE MANUFACTURER CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY.

It is commonplace for manufacturers to put illegal and unenforceable provisions in warranties precisely to give them an out if they want, and it's up to you, the consumer, to know what your rights actually are. In most cases, if they come back at you with a "your warranty is void" you need only inform them that you're familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act (you can search it online for the text) and that if they are not prepared to meet their burden of proof they had best honor their warranty.

And of course the most significant thing that will alleviate the problem is simply never to tell them that you hand load your ammunition. It's none of their business anyway. So long as you load within SAAMI pressure specs, which you should be careful to do, the gun MUST be made to withstand that pressure.

And, as we can see, you can get overpressure damage even (indeed especially) when you use factory ammo if the chamber is too tight.

Don't take any guff from a manufacturer, particularly if the give you a hard time about the brand of ammo you shoot. While it is true that different guns like different ammo, all commercially loaded ammo is loaded to be well within SAMMI specs and will not ordinarily damage a firearm. If it does, you have recourse against the ammo manufacturer.

But it's also possible that the firearm is defective, particularly precision firearms with tight chambers and throats, which, while intended to enhance accuracy also run the risk of damage to the firearm from perfectly acceptable SAMMI spec commercial ammo.

Much more than their word is required before they can deny you warranty coverage, although they may try to do so in hopes that you are ignorant of your rights.

 

[MilsurpShooter]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Altnews</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MilsurpShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1) Bought a few boxes of .338, factory loads (Hand loads void your warranty)...
</div></div>

This statement is not true.</div></div>

I only put that in there simply because of what the warranty card/paperwork from savage said, no more, no less is all, and had the rep ask me specifically if I was using custom rounds, just trying to give him a general idea of what's going to be asked when he calls Savage. Which, I still think is his best course of action given a new rifle with 7 rounds through it lol

 

[Grizzdude]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

Just got off the phone with Joe DeGrande from Savage. Going to send the rifle in and Joe is personally going to handle it. He was actually interested in taking care of this as opposed to the usual "Oh man not another warranty call" you get from other companies. Said they would do whatever they had to, to fix it. They are sending me a shipping label too, can't really ask for better customer service than that!

Thanks for the input milsurpshooter and altnews, Ive learned quite a bit from your posts. altnews, I'll definitely be checking the runout on future factory loads, never thought of that one. When I talked to Joe I mentioned I would be reloading my own with lapua brass and berger bullets, He really liked that combo and just told me to start low and work up slow because the 338 cartridge has a lot of pressure.

 

[Altnews]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grizzdude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just got off the phone with Joe DeGrande from Savage. Going to send the rifle in and Joe is personally going to handle it. He was actually interested in taking care of this as opposed to the usual "Oh man not another warranty call" you get from other companies. Said they would do whatever they had to, to fix it. They are sending me a shipping label too, can't really ask for better customer service than that!

Thanks for the input milsurpshooter and altnews, Ive learned quite a bit from your posts. altnews, I'll definitely be checking the runout on future factory loads, never thought of that one. When I talked to Joe I mentioned I would be reloading my own with lapua brass and berger bullets, He really liked that combo and just told me to start low and work up slow because the 338 cartridge has a lot of pressure. </div></div>

That's good advice. If you don't have a chrono, get one and use it. You might also find that a lower velocity gives you more accuracy. That's what I found with my .243 Sako that I shot literally thousands of prairie dogs with on my ranch. I downloaded a bit from factory spec and my rifle liked it much better.

Just keep good records of every load and shot. I lost my reloading data notebook in the move when I sold the ranch and I'm having to start all over again with some of my rifles.

 

[Altnews]

Re: Bolt face dent's? Savage 338 lapua

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MilsurpShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Altnews</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MilsurpShooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1) Bought a few boxes of .338, factory loads (Hand loads void your warranty)...
</div></div>

This statement is not true.</div></div>

I only put that in there simply because of what the warranty card/paperwork from savage said, no more, no less is all, and had the rep ask me specifically if I was using custom rounds, just trying to give him a general idea of what's going to be asked when he calls Savage. Which, I still think is his best course of action given a new rifle with 7 rounds through it lol </div></div>

I totally understand. I was not being critical of you, I was pointing out that manufacturers often stuff illegal conditions into their warranties hoping that the consumer is ignorant of what his rights actually are.

One of the ways I evaluate a vendor is whether their warranty has weasel-wording and stuff I know they can't enforce in it.

The other method is to look for "binding arbitration" requirements. If you have to agree to binding arbitration before buying something, the law won't matter because it'll never get to court.

Automobile companies are doing this now, as are dealerships, and they will simply refuse to sell you a car if you don't agree to waiving your legal rights.

We all need to quit doing business with such companies.