New guy, and new gun questions

[L2bravo]

Hey guys, I'm new to the site. I am really impressed with the amount of knowledge, and knowledgeable guys that are here.

Although I have hunted pretty much my whole life, and have shot plenty of bolt guns, I have been more into the black rifles, for the past 5 or 6 years. I have wanted to get more into the bolt guns for a while now.

I am in the process of buying a lightly used Rem, 700 Police, in .223 from a friend. It has a 20'' non fluted, parkerized barrel/action. I know very little about the particular specs of this rifle.

Here are a few questions that I have:

What kind of out of the box accuracy is this rifle generally capable of?

What is the twist rate of this barrel?

Relating to the above: On AR's, you usually need a 1/7 barrel, if you are going to shoot the heavier stuff. Does this hold true for these as well?

I appreciate the help, and look forward to hearing some of you guy's answers on this. Thanks in advance, Josh

 

[remau308]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

They are pretty accurate as is because of the HS Precision stock. It free-floats the barrel, and doesn't flex when using a bipod. They come standard with a 1-9 twist which isn't very fast, but it should be fine with most stuff. If you want to shoot the heavy stuff though, you may want a different barrel twist.

Overall though, they are good guns. I started out with a R700 Police in .308 myself, and it was very accurate.

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

Understanding that I need to go do a bunch of testing myself (which I am a proponent of), what is generally the heaviest bullets that theses will shoot accurately?

When I talk about "heavy", I am in reference to 75's and 77's, which is the upper end on the AR platform.

Again, I appreciate the help, Josh

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

You really need to test different loads yourself and find out what it will or won't stabilize. The gyroscopic stability factors you typically find are somewhat conservative and the twist rates for a given projectile are generally a guideline, not written in stone. As an example, I had a .223 semi with a 21" 10-twist barrel. On paper, it should not have worked well with 77 gr projectiles, but in fact, it worked quite well out to 600 yd, which was the longest distance I tested. Your best bet would be to buy a few boxes of ammo (each) with different projectiles such as 69s, 75s, and 77s, then see how well they perform at various distances out to whatever max you routinely intend to shoot. If your 9-twist is an issue with the longer (heavier) projectiles, it will likely become apparent as the distance increases.

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

What is the usable barrel life on a gun like this? .223's aren't exactly barrel burners are they?

Edit: Maybe I need to add, that I want this gun to be a 500 yard gun, at the the tops. Thanks again.

 

[doubletap66]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

If you go online and search bullet samples, there are places like Sinclair that offer 12 packs of sample bullets. 12 will give you enough to check stability of heavy bullets, without having 88 sitting on your shelf.

 

[jimmykm21]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L2bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the usable barrel life on a gun like this? .223's aren't exactly barrel burners are they?

Edit: Maybe I need to add, that I want this gun to be a 500 yard gun, at the the tops. Thanks again.</div></div>


No not at all , you will get 5000 to 7000 rounds easy.
If you are going to be pushing heavy bullets then you will
be increasing your powder load .So that could reduce barrel life.

So it really comes down to shoot it until your groups
start opening up.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

With the 5.56 wind is your enemy. Read up on ballistic coefficients (and ballistics in general), we have a whole sub-forum just on that topic. The better the BC of your bullet, the better you buck the wind. 500yds shouldn't be an issue, but there are better rounds obviously. If you want the twist, do a Google search, it'll be out there somewhere already. Accuracy will come down to your ability probably more than the gun, but most factory guns will shoot 1.5 MOA or better depending on optimal loadings. It's a good platform, buy it, shoot it, shoot it some more. You can learn a lot about what you need (if anything more) for #2.

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

@Jimmy, I appreciate the insight on the barrel life. AR's (my only referce point), usually last that or a little better. Is the Rem. barrel hammer forged? If so, I would bet it might even last a little more than that. Either way, it's a long time for sure.

@Hawk, Yes Sir, I totally get the idea that the 5.56 is not the ideal long range gun. I don't have any real real experience shooting past about 400. However, I wanted a gun in a cal. that I could shoot prarie dogs with as well, so this rifle sort of made sense.

Thanks again guys for the help, Josh

 

[jimmykm21]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

I thought all Remington barrels are hammer forged on their
bolt guns unless something has changed .
Maybe someone with more knowledge can answer this for you.

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

@Jimmy, after thinking about it for a minute, I believe that you are right. I think that Rem has one of the 6 or 7 hammer forges in this country. Sorry for my confusion. Josh

 

[mountainman308]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

To the best of my knowledge, your rifle has a 1/9 twist to it. Your out of the box accuracy should be 1-1.5 moa. If you get the action blueprinted and the barrel recrowned, that will tighten up to at least 1 moa, if not less with the right load. In regards to the twist rate, I doubt you will be able to handle any 90 gn Sierras, but try the 55-68 gn range. You should find a good load.

 

[jimmykm21]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

no problem
You're going to like the rifle.
I bought a SPS tactical a while ago in .308
I changed out the stock , bottom metal and trigger but kept the barrel
on it. I saw no reason to change it yet. It shoots sub moa.

Jim

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

Okay, help me understand here. Why do you want to recrown a barrel? From what I know, this gun has about 300 rounds through it, if that makes a difference.

I asked about barrel life, because that is a hotly contested point on AR barrels. There are those that feel that they are shot out at 7,000, and there are those that say that they get 3 or so moa, after 15,000 or more rounds. I guess it all depends on a lot of barrel factors.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a bolt gun's barrel last a lot longer than an AR's? If nothing, due to the considerably slower rate of fire?

@Jim, why do you change the bottom metal out? So what you kept, is the barrel, action, and? Thanks again, Josh

 

[mountainman308]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

The crown is the last part of the barrel to contact the bullet. If it is flawed or uneven, then it can greatly affect the bullet's flight. Getting the barrel recrowned by a competent smith will give you a good bit of added accuracy.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

Consistency is all about eliminating as many variables as possible. You will get far less variances on a trued gun by a quality smith than you will a mass produced factory gun. The difference in 1-1.5 MOA and .5 MOA (consistently) comes at a price, literary.

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

Mountain and Hawk, I understand what you guys are trying to tell me. I also am an OCD type guy, which is going to run me into fits, I can see already.

I fully have understood the importance of the crown, even before this. But is what you guys are trying to tell me, is that factory crowns are shit? Again, I trust what you are saying, just trying to better understand.

Along with Jimmy, what are you guys opinions on barrel life?

Thanks, Josh

 

[Mike0341]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L2bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, help me understand here. Why do you want to recrown a barrel? From what I know, this gun has about 300 rounds through it, if that makes a difference.

I asked about barrel life, because that is a hotly contested point on AR barrels. There are those that feel that they are shot out at 7,000, and there are those that say that they get 3 or so moa, after 15,000 or more rounds. I guess it all depends on a lot of barrel factors.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a bolt gun's barrel last a lot longer than an AR's? If nothing, due to the considerably slower rate of fire?

@Jim, why do you change the bottom metal out? So what you kept, is the barrel, action, and? Thanks again, Josh

</div></div>

every AR i own has a chrome lined barrel so the barrel life would be considerably longer than that of a bolt gun or even an AR without a chrome lined barrel.

also if a weapon is shooting a heavy bullet (heavy typically means longer) then barrel will not last as long as if you are shooting a lighter bullet (typically shorter). bullet length is a bigger factor than bullet weight when it comes to barrel life. there are some lighter bullets that are just as long or longer than heavy bullets (155gn lapua scenar compared to a 175gn smk for instance). so the 155 scenar will wear out a barrel just as fast as a 175 smk theoretically.

like you said though there are a lot of factors involved. here is what Krieger has on their site. http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Break_In__Cleaning-c1246-wp2558.htm

"Quite often we get asked about the service life of a barrel or “How long will my barrel last?”. The truth is a complicated result of many factors, ultimately service life is determined by a combination of cartridge, cleaning practices, shooting style, etc. A barrel is “Shot Out” or at the end of it’s service life when the throat erosion has resulted in the bullet no longer able to be seated to touch the lands and still remain in the case by a reasonable amount, and heat checking/cracking has progressed several inches forward of the throat. These are the normal determining factors that cause a degradation in accuracy from when the barrel was ‘fresh’ or new. Cartridge choice, powder selection, pressure (a combination of powder selection/amount, bullet weight, and cartridge design), and cleaning procedures will ALL have an effect on how long of a service life your particular barrel has. No two pieces of barrel steel will have the same exact properties either. We can give an “average” barrel life for a particular cartridge if it is a common one used in competition, but that is no guarantee of any round count due to all of the listed factors above. Most cartridge designs larger than .223 Rem or .308 Win in powder capacity to bore ratio will begin to erode the throat measurably in less than 1000 rounds."

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

Mike, I forgot about my AR's, and the chrome lined aspect of them. That makes sense. So I would guess that the life span of a bolt gun then, would be in the 7k - 10k range before accuracy really starts to drop off?

Again, just like AR's, it seems that there is a lot of differences of opinion on this matter.

I guess my only unknown is $$ cost for barrel replacement, and suppliers, and what all is entailed. This is new waters for me.

Thanks for the help, Josh

 

[Mike0341]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

i don't know about 7k to 10k rounds. that number seems to be a bit high in my opinion.

 

[jimmykm21]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L2bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, help me understand here. Why do you want to recrown a barrel? From what I know, this gun has about 300 rounds through it, if that makes a difference.

I asked about barrel life, because that is a hotly contested point on AR barrels. There are those that feel that they are shot out at 7,000, and there are those that say that they get 3 or so moa, after 15,000 or more rounds. I guess it all depends on a lot of barrel factors.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't a bolt gun's barrel last a lot longer than an AR's? If nothing, due to the considerably slower rate of fire?

@Jim, why do you change the bottom metal out? So what you kept, is the barrel, action, and? Thanks again, Josh

</div></div>

Yes that's all I kept is the barreled action.
The question about the bottom metal is I wanted the rifle mag fed so I went with a Badger bottom metal. The first thing I was going to change was the barrel
but as I said I tried various loads until I found one that worked well.

I just didn't see any reason to replace the barrel until it gets shot out. Before you decide to get barrel work done try some
loads to see how it shoots.

Jim

 

[L2bravo]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

I for sure am going to do some range work, and see what I can find that shoots the best. I am hoping that I can get some 68 Hornady's, or 69 SMK's to do well.

As far as barrels go, what does a new barrel usually run? Middle of the road barrel, nothing extravagant. Also, what other charges are incurred on that as well? What does that run at a smith?

What do guys usually do trigger wise? Which ones are moe popular? I have not had a bolt gun apart, but I am fairly mechanically inclined.

I really want to use this gun to get me up to speed. I will worry about better gear later on. I am sure that this gun will far out do me at this point.

Thanks again, Josh

 

[jimmykm21]

Re: New guy, and new gun questions

Here's a good write up on what is involved in truing an action.
When you finally decide to go with a new barrel it is something you want the smith to do.


http://www.rifle-accuracy-reports.com/AccurizedAction.html

A good barrel can go anywhere from $250 to $350
plus another $250 to $300( I forgot to add the install and threading of the barrel price so tack on another maybe $200 ) for install and truing
So you are looking at anywhere from $500 to $700 , (so it could kick it up another of couple of hundred).

There are some real good smiths on this site to choose from.

Jim

edit to add
As for the trigger I went with one I'm sure you are familiar with ,Timney