F T/R Competition Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

[Ernie B]

Hi,

I plan on getting into F/TR shooting this coming Spring/Summer and have already purchased a new Savage Mod. 12 F/TR in .308. I have a NIB Nikon Monarch 8-32x50 but I don't know if it will have enough adjustment to do the job. I hope to stay in the 300 to 600-yard range but may end up shooting out to 1,000. I have already planned on using a 20-moa base but I'm not sure if even that will be enough to get out to 1,000-yards. I have not been able to find the max. range of adjustment for this scope, even on Nikon's website. Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ernie

 

[cornhusker]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Well,if it were me I would leave it alone and spend time shooting it to the distance you mentioned..Then if you decide that is what you want,you can make changes..I would say you SHOULD have plenty for the 600 yard..I am not to positive,but you shouold have...Maybe someone else will chime in on this with a more positive informative reply...Good luck and have fun shootin..

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

The Nikon website shows a maximum range of 20moa total. I'm thinking the internal lenses are probably big. That scope has incredible lenses, far above what you expect at that price point. I would use a 20MOA rail right off the bat. You may need a 30MOA rail for 1000 yards.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Thanks for the info guys, your thoughts seems to be in line with what I was thinking regarding this scope. Denys, you are so correct about the lenses in that scope. When I got it sometime ago, I did take it out of the box to make sure it wasn't fogged up or any other visible signs of damage, and I was totally impressed with the clarity of this scope. I think I will go ahead with a 30-moa rail to begin with as I plan on having Mark King (PA 1,000 Yard Bench Rest HOF'r.) to do one of his super-close tolerance mounting jobs for the rail, rings and scope. He built a 1,000-yard light gun for me a few years ago and it was almost impossible to see where the rail met the action. Thanks for locating the max. adjustment range, I must have overlooked that somehow on the website.

Thanks again,
Ernie

 

[XTR]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

GO get a 100 yard zero. After you get that see how much elevation you have left.

You will need 14MOA to 15MOA to get to 600 and 30MOA to 33MOA depending on bullet and how hard you push them to get to 1000.

Most scoped tend to come from the factory with the optic zeroed in the center of the erector so you end up with a 100 yard zero that is in the middle of your elevation range, no biggie for a hunter, but a long range shooter just lost half the useable elevation in his scope. I run a 30 MOA rail on both of my NF scopes. Puts them one turn off of the bottom at 100 and plenty of up to get to 1000.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

XTR, Thanks for the additional info. It will help me find out just how much adjustment the scope actually has. I've already decided to go with the 30-moa rail.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Ernie,
I think you're going to find that even with a 30 MOA rail, the limited max internal adjustment of that scope is going to be a nightmare for F-T/R shooting. Assuming the scope will actually have approximately 8-9 MOA upward elevation travel after zeroing at 100 yd, you'd max out your elevation at around 400 yd. The problem only gets worse because with a 30 MOA base, there is no way you could zero your rifle at 100 or 200 yd, maybe not even 400 yd, again because the elevation travel is so limited. The more cant you put in the base, the farther away your absolute closest zero range will be, even though it would allow you to reach out to a greater with that scope. Although you could probably get this scope to work with a 30 MOA base from 400-600 yd and further, I think you're going to find it extremely difficult and frustrating to be so limited by its elevation travel.

My suggestion would be to start thinking about different glass for your rifle now, rather than go through the pain of trying to get the one you have to do a job it wasn't designed to do (ie. F-Class). Also, you can certainly go with a 30 MOA base if you wish, but with a suitable scope that has plenty of elevation travel, 20 MOA should be more than enough. You really want something with a minimum total elevation travel of somewhere in the range of 45 MOA (or greater; that would be ~22.5 MOA up/down adjustment). That will allow you to zero at 100 yd, as well as reach 1000 yd without maxing out the travel. Sorry to be so negative, but I've been through similar situations where I tried valiantly to make something work that really wasn't meant to do what I wanted. Eventually, I learned my lesson and hopefully will help spare you from going through the same frustration. Best of luck with your shooting.

 

[XTR]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Ouch, I didn't read Denys' post that it only has 20 MOA of elevation.

gstaylorg, is right, if your goal for this rifle is F class, then get either a Sightron 10-50, or a Nightforce 8-32 or 12-42. I have never seen anyone do a side by side to compare them to say which is actually better.

(though for many including myself the choice is the NP2-DD)

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Well, not so fast. It would not be the first time that incorrect data was found at a manufacturer's website. When I first saw the 20MOA value at Nikon, I was going to send them an email and ask if that was correct, because it seemed like a very low value. But as it turned out, I never did get around to it and forgot all about ti until this thread popped up.

Now, since the OP has the riflescope, he can verify for himslef how much adjustment there is.

Simply wind the elevation knob fully one way, then count the number of clicks to go the other way until it stops; that will provide the answer. To adjust the scope back to mechanical zero, simply put the scope on top of a mirror and adjust the reticle until it's visually in the middle of the scope.

I would love to know if it really is a grand total of 20MOA or did they mean 20MOA up and 20MOA down.

 

[gstaylorg]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

According to Nikon's website "Max. Internal Adjustment = 20 MOA". Even though it's a 1" tube, that adjustment range stills seems extremely small to me also. Perhaps it's just written in an odd way. Denys' suggestion of contacting Nikon to be sure it's not 20 MOA in <span style="font-style: italic">both directions</span> is a good one. What do you have to lose? With 40 MOA total adjustment, you'd be GTG, even with only a 20 MOA base.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Thanks again for all the help guys. I can appreciate the concern each of you have regarding what <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">'appears'</span></span> to be such an unusually small amount of internal adjustment for a scope such as this one. I, too, have thought long and hard about this since initially posting this question and reading your responses. However, as has been previously mentioned, I, too, am wondering if the 20-MOA adjustment figure listed on the Nikon website is actually correct. If it is true, I really can't see any useful purpose for a scope of this much power that, even if purchased as a long-range hunting scope, would be so severely limited due to its minimal amount of adjustment. I'm going to take Denys suggestion and send an e-mail to Nikon to see if I can get this matter cleared up. I really had hoped NOT to have to lay out the addition money for a new scope when I have this one just lying around. I was really planning on using that money for new brass, bullets, powder, a good bipod, etc. I will post the response from Nikon on here as soon as I hear back from them.

Ernie

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

You can also figure out the true range of adjustment by doing what I suggested earlier; dial the elevation all the way to one end and then dial to the other, counting the clicks. That will give you the real value, or something close to it. Each click represents 1/8 inch at 100 yards according to their website, so divide the total number of clicks by 8 and you will have a good approximation.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

OK guys, how about some help finding some options... First, if I were to go with say, a Vortex Viper 6.5-20x50 w/30-mm tube (68-MOA max. adj.)? I'm also looking at the Sightron SII Big Sky in the 6-24x42 w/1" tube (60-MOA max. adj.)? Would either of these scopes be a workable option? With Christmas just around the corner, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">The Mrs</span>.</span> ain't gonna' let me shell out 1K or more on another scope, especially with just buying my new Savage Mod. 12 F/TR, plus a full set of new high-end Redding dies w/all the accompanying goodies, etc.. I might possibly be able to swing something in the price range of the two scopes I've mentioned here, but that will be about the best I can hope for right now. Let me know what you guys think... Any additional scopes you might recommend would be welcome also. Again guys, I greatly appreciate all the help you've been sending my way with this matter.

Ernie

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Denys, I did manage to read your post before it was deleted and I sure do appreciate you trying to keep me from tripping over my own feet with this deal!! I read with interest the attachment in your post and yes, I WILL get that scope out and actually count the clicks to see for sure what it DOES have. If you would bear with me asking a dumb question here, once I have the total number of clicks, what is the mathematical equation that I need to work out to find the actual amount (**-MOA) of adjustment??

Ernie

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Look up two posts.

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

The reason I deleted my post is that I tripped on my keyboard. Glad you go the link, but there are other places that say 20MOA.

 

[XTR]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

You want two things, ok, three things in a scope for F class

First, you want to know how far the bullet moves with each click, and that number needs to be consistent and repeatable.

You want a thin reticle that doesn't cover too much of the aiming point. You're shooting at a 1MOA 10 ring and a .5 MOA X ring. If the aiming point is covering 1/4 of the 10 ring you have a problem. (the aiming point on an NP-2DD is 0.1MOA at 42x and .13 at 32X)

You want as much magnification as you can get for your $$.

Other than that the most it ever took me to get to 1000yds was 36MOA when I was shooting 175SMKs from a 24" barrel. From a 30" tube that number is 30 to 33 depending on the bullet shooting at 900feet ASL. You can look at the specs and see if a scope will work.

I'd shop here and on Accurate shooter for a Sightron, either a 10-50 or their *-32 models. The 32 will get the job done and should be reasonable $$, the 10-50s sell for $700 to $800 or so used. I'd be patient and wait till I could grab a used one. Both of my NF scopes were used.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

XTR, very helpful info indeed... I will definitely look into some of the used scope models you've listed. I've got some other things to take care of over the next couple days, but as soon as I have the time, I'm going to get that scope out and count the clicks so I'll know <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">for</span></span> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">SURE</span></span></span> just exactly what I've got and then proceed from there. I know the Sightron scopes are very good. I have a plain-Jane 3-9-42 SII hunting scope that I've had for quite a while and it's as good a scope as any I've got. I've know several folks in the 1,000-yard BR game that use the SIII's faithfully and they all love them. I can't recall, actually, every talking to anyone who had anything negative to say about a Sightron scope. BTW, the reticle in my Monarch is the fine crosshair w/dot.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Earlier in this discussion, it was mentioned that I should contact Nikon directly re: the internal adjustment of the Monarch 8-32x50. Following is the response to that question the I received back from Nikon. I thought some of you might be interested in reading it... Note that nowhere did he answer my question about the actual amount of adjustment for this scope...

<span style="font-style: italic">Thank you for contacting Nikon,
Your Reference Number is 121204-000823

The Monarch 8-32x50 Rifle Scope is intended for extreme distance shots. The 600 - 1000 yard range and over will be perfect with this Scope. Due to the 1/8 inch adjustments and small MOA it will not be very well used at shorter distances. Unfortunately, this scope was intended and designed for the longer range precision shots.

Please Click the "Update My Question" Link on the Email to respond. For any other questions please contact us via Email or at 1-800-645-6687

Thank you
Michael

Thanks for using Nikon products!

Nikon Inc. (USA) Service & Support</span>

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Interesting response from Nikon, and lack of specific information, as you pointed out.

Follow me on this. According to JBM, with a muzzle velocity of 2700 (a velocity you will easily be able to achieve with the 30inch barrel,) a 175 SMK will be 1.5MOA low at 100 yards; 3.4@200; 6.0@300; 9.1@400; 12.5@500; 16.5@600; 20.8@700; 25.7@800; 31.5@900 and 37.8@1000.

So, if the scope has a range of 20 MOA, the mechanical zero will be where the elevation has 10MOA up and 10MOA down. This means that without any canted rail, the scope can only get to less than 500 yards.

If plopped these figures in Excel and then did some calculations for canted rails of 10MOA to 30MOA.

For shooting at Mid-range (300-600), a 10MOA canted rail will allow you to be able to get a zero from 100 yards to 600 yards with no problem.

For shooting at Long Range (800-1000), you will need a 30MOA ramp, which will allow you to get a zero from 700 to 1000 yards.

There is no canted rail that will allow you to zero at 600 or less AND 1000 yards.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Denys, I think I understand what you're saying. It looks to me like, if I use this scope, I could get either a 100-yrd. to 600-yrd. setup with a 10MOA rail - <span style="font-weight: bold">OR</span> - a 700-yrd. to 1,000-yrd. setup with a 30MOA rail. But, with using this scope, there is <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">nothing</span></span> I could do to have a setup to work at both distances at the same time. Am I understanding you correctly about that??

Actually, my shooting plans are to stay in the 300 to 600-yrd. range as much as I possibly can anyway. I have optic migraines in both eyes, which really messes with my vision at times, and trying to shoot out to 1,000 yards usually ends up being a pain in the rear anyhow. I actually gave up and sold my 1,000-yard gun and all the associated stuff a couple years back due to this problem. However, after coming this far and with all the money I've spent so far, it would be nice to be able to get out to 1,000 yards, should I ever want to, if you know what I mean.

Ernie

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Yes, that's pretty much what I figure. You should get the exact drops for your specific load and do the calculations to make sure I didn't screw up anywhere.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Denys, I sure appreciate all the help you've been with this. I just got over surgeries on my left hand & elbow back in late-October and I'm scheduled to have the same surgeries done on my right hand & elbow soon after Jan. 1. I have an appointment with the surgeon tomorrow and I'm hoping to talk her into only doing the right hand this time and not the elbow too. The elbow surgery takes much longer to recover from and I really want to be shooting this rifle and working on the loads by NLT late-March or early-April. As I mentioned in my previous post, I hope to be able to stay at 600-yards or under, which will allow me to make use of this scope. It really has some awesome glass in and, from what little I've looked thru it, it's even clearer than the Zeiss I have on my 30-06. It's a super-nice scope.

Ernie

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

I wish you all the luck and I hope the surgeries turn out well.

I'm happy to have been of some help, and again, recheck my numbers; I'm in my late youth and have been known to make mistakes (as several smart donkeys here will be only too happy to confirm.)

Feel free to PM me if you want.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Thanks so much. Regarding mistakes, I know what you mean! If I were only half as good at getting things right as I am messing them up, I'd be OK!!

 

[pjparker]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

Yeah, Denys thought he was wrong, once, but he was mistaken.........

Paul

 

[Denys]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

See what I mean?

 

[1rocky1]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

I shoot FTR @ 1000 I'm using a 20moa Rail with a 8-25 x 50 Leupold Mark4 and I get out there no problem. I'm shooting a Remington XCR 26" in 308. I shoot 175 SMK and Berger VLD's. It's set 0 @ 100. I come up 39 MOA. You can check to see if you have enough adjustments by zeroing @ 100 then with a tape measure. Mark up 39" @ 100 yards. Use the same POA But with a 39" high POI.

 

[downlow]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Denys</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.So, if the scope has a range of 20 MOA, the mechanical zero will be where the elevation has 10MOA up and 10MOA down. This means that without any canted rail, the scope can only get to less than 500 yards.</div></div>


All this assumes that his 100 yard zero is in the middle of his adjustment range. If he has to dial up to get a 100 yard zero, he loses that much more elevation to dial to 600.

To the OP, mount a 20 MOA rail, and go get a 100 yard zero. Then count how many clicks--or moa--elevation you have left in your scope, and use the JBM info Denys gave you to compare to see if you can get to 600.

You have to mount a rail (20 or 30 moa) and get your 100 yard zero before you can see what is left in your scope. It's that simple. I think you can use your Nikon and get there with a 20 moa pic rail. Let us know how it goes.

 

[Ernie B]

Re: Scope Question From NEW F/TR Shooter...

284fan,

Thanks for your input. I'm very grateful for all the time and attention that has been given me regarding this matter here on Sniper's Hide. One of the main reasons for getting back into competition shooting after being away for so long while dealing with my health issues is that that I've ALWAYS gotten so much enjoyment from being around comp. shooters, no matter the format. That's why I've spent so much of my first 54 years staying involved to the greatest extent possible with you folks - you are the best people I've found anywhere. Once the weather gets warmed up again so I can get out and put some rounds down the tube to see if I can still HIT anything, I'll be sure to let you guys know how things are going with my rig.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Years to everyone here on Sniper's Hide!!

Ernie