I still have the same brass from 2002. Some of my brass has 19 loads on it. I have not annealed a single time. Am i asking for trouble? I occasionally find a loose primer pocket and i just toss those in the trash. I am still using my same load of R-P 308 brass, 44 grains varget, 178 amax, and CCI BR primer. Im getting 2,595 fps from a 24" barrel. Am i asking for trouble? should i toss my brass and start new, or keep loading it? I trim about every 3rd or 4th firing. I have never had a neck split or any other problems.
- Thread starter 19dsniper
- Start date
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
I have to admit that i feel a little stupid asking this question, but i just dont have an answer. I am leaning towards the side of, keep reloading until it fails, but bc i have never had that happen, i dont know what to expect when it does fail. Will i be risking harm to myself or my weapon? I didnt realize i had so many reloads on the brass (thought it was at 12-13) till i looked it up in my reloading log book. Started looking because im about to order some Lapua brass for .308 and some RWS brass for .300wm.
I have to admit that i feel a little stupid asking this question, but i just dont have an answer. I am leaning towards the side of, keep reloading until it fails, but bc i have never had that happen, i dont know what to expect when it does fail. Will i be risking harm to myself or my weapon? I didnt realize i had so many reloads on the brass (thought it was at 12-13) till i looked it up in my reloading log book. Started looking because im about to order some Lapua brass for .308 and some RWS brass for .300wm.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
So long as the brass is in good condition, and hasn't been abused by overwork, you're just fine here. I've exceeded this number (you mentioned 19 firings) by some substantial margins many times. It really comes down to the loads themselves. If you're not opening up primer pockets, causing excessive brass flow, or working the brass excessively either at the neck or by bumping the shoulder back too much, you're good to go. Watch for primer pockets loosening (which you obviously already are), but also for signs of cracking at the neck (excessive working of the brass during sizing) or the development of impending cracking or case separation ahead of the extractor groove caused by bumping the shoulders excessively during F/L sizing (excessive headspace).
This is one of those questions that has many different definitions and very different standards, depending on what's being reloaded, the firearm being used, etc..
So long as the brass is in good condition, and hasn't been abused by overwork, you're just fine here. I've exceeded this number (you mentioned 19 firings) by some substantial margins many times. It really comes down to the loads themselves. If you're not opening up primer pockets, causing excessive brass flow, or working the brass excessively either at the neck or by bumping the shoulder back too much, you're good to go. Watch for primer pockets loosening (which you obviously already are), but also for signs of cracking at the neck (excessive working of the brass during sizing) or the development of impending cracking or case separation ahead of the extractor groove caused by bumping the shoulders excessively during F/L sizing (excessive headspace).
This is one of those questions that has many different definitions and very different standards, depending on what's being reloaded, the firearm being used, etc..
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Downzero, is there a set number of times you will reload before tossing your brass? or are you shooting at a higher pressure possibly?
Anyone have any opinions or experience with annealing? I am wondering at this point if i should anneal my brass or just toss it and get new lapua brass. I am very interested to see how long it will last, but i dont want to risk damage to my weapon. I seriously doubt that a split neck here or there is going to damage anything.
Downzero, is there a set number of times you will reload before tossing your brass? or are you shooting at a higher pressure possibly?
Anyone have any opinions or experience with annealing? I am wondering at this point if i should anneal my brass or just toss it and get new lapua brass. I am very interested to see how long it will last, but i dont want to risk damage to my weapon. I seriously doubt that a split neck here or there is going to damage anything.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
What are you shooting? That was one of the parameters I mentioned, and yes, there's different standards for different types of firearms.
What are you shooting? That was one of the parameters I mentioned, and yes, there's different standards for different types of firearms.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
It is a custom M24 made by GAP on a blueprinted Rem 700 action. I use it for everything from hunting to 1000+ yards. same load, or 208 amax if i really want to push it. The 208's really drop with the lower velocity, but they are still pretty impressive at 1400!!!
It is a custom M24 made by GAP on a blueprinted Rem 700 action. I use it for everything from hunting to 1000+ yards. same load, or 208 amax if i really want to push it. The 208's really drop with the lower velocity, but they are still pretty impressive at 1400!!!
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
No problem at all! Keep the loads modest by choosing high BC bullets rather than trying to make up for poor ballistics with pure speed, and the brass should last a good, long time. Use a bushing die to avoid working the neck more than absolutely necessary. Also, make sure you're using a good case gage like the RCBS Precision Mic so you know exactly how much you're bumping the shoulder and you're good to go.
With the solid lock up of a bolt gun, you're not dealing with the action flex that weaker actions may be subject too, which is where that question came from. And again, with some action types, the guns themselves are the limiting factor in brass life. In certain gas guns, most notably the M1 and M14/M1A series, three firings is all you get out of any brass, regardless of quality. You're asking a perfectly reasonable question here, but there's a number of different factors that go into the answer. Needs to be refined a bit to arrive at a definitive answer sometimes. You're fine here, just keep doing what you're doing.
No problem at all! Keep the loads modest by choosing high BC bullets rather than trying to make up for poor ballistics with pure speed, and the brass should last a good, long time. Use a bushing die to avoid working the neck more than absolutely necessary. Also, make sure you're using a good case gage like the RCBS Precision Mic so you know exactly how much you're bumping the shoulder and you're good to go.
With the solid lock up of a bolt gun, you're not dealing with the action flex that weaker actions may be subject too, which is where that question came from. And again, with some action types, the guns themselves are the limiting factor in brass life. In certain gas guns, most notably the M1 and M14/M1A series, three firings is all you get out of any brass, regardless of quality. You're asking a perfectly reasonable question here, but there's a number of different factors that go into the answer. Needs to be refined a bit to arrive at a definitive answer sometimes. You're fine here, just keep doing what you're doing.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Kevin, Thanks for the reply. I guess i will keep loading them till i start to see some problems, or start getting a lot of loose primer pockets. So far, i have been pretty lucky i guess. I hope my next batch of brass lasts this long. Getting ready to order some lapua tonight. I have been putting it off bc now i will need to start working up a new load for this rifle due to difference in case capacity. Anyways, thanks again. I will keep a close eye on things and just keep loading!
Now, time to load, and then get out and shoot!!!
Kevin, Thanks for the reply. I guess i will keep loading them till i start to see some problems, or start getting a lot of loose primer pockets. So far, i have been pretty lucky i guess. I hope my next batch of brass lasts this long. Getting ready to order some lapua tonight. I have been putting it off bc now i will need to start working up a new load for this rifle due to difference in case capacity. Anyways, thanks again. I will keep a close eye on things and just keep loading!
Now, time to load, and then get out and shoot!!!
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Tipper, if you are alluding to the fact that reloading this brass may be dangerous, please tell.
Tipper, if you are alluding to the fact that reloading this brass may be dangerous, please tell.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19dsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tipper, if you are alluding to the fact that reloading this brass may be dangerous, please tell. </div></div>
YES
If you have trimmed it, in order for it to get longer it gets thinner, as in case head separation, I would it has been fully work hardened.
please follow safe reloading practices. Load at your own risk.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 19dsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tipper, if you are alluding to the fact that reloading this brass may be dangerous, please tell. </div></div>
YES
If you have trimmed it, in order for it to get longer it gets thinner, as in case head separation, I would it has been fully work hardened.
please follow safe reloading practices. Load at your own risk.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
I understand that in the firing process that your brass flows and that is what causes a case to get longer, hence trimming. But i have never read in a reloading manual or anywhere else, how many times you can safely reload brass. That is why i posted the question. If you have any information as to how to measure "what is safe" I will gladly look into it. Are you saying that we shouldn't trim brass, or that it is only safe to trim brass once, and then after that it becomes too thin and unsafe to load? I am trying to understand where you are coming from with "If you have trimmed it, in order for it to get longer it gets thinner, as in case head separation, I would it has been fully work hardened." To the best of my knowledge, I am following safe reloading practices, because i havent read anything to the contrary, but maybe i have overlooked that in one of my many reloading manuals. Again, i cant find a number anywhere. Not trying to start an argument here, i am seriously trying to find an answer. Thank you for your comment. I will continue to look into it further.
I understand that in the firing process that your brass flows and that is what causes a case to get longer, hence trimming. But i have never read in a reloading manual or anywhere else, how many times you can safely reload brass. That is why i posted the question. If you have any information as to how to measure "what is safe" I will gladly look into it. Are you saying that we shouldn't trim brass, or that it is only safe to trim brass once, and then after that it becomes too thin and unsafe to load? I am trying to understand where you are coming from with "If you have trimmed it, in order for it to get longer it gets thinner, as in case head separation, I would it has been fully work hardened." To the best of my knowledge, I am following safe reloading practices, because i havent read anything to the contrary, but maybe i have overlooked that in one of my many reloading manuals. Again, i cant find a number anywhere. Not trying to start an argument here, i am seriously trying to find an answer. Thank you for your comment. I will continue to look into it further.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Currently most of them have been trimmed 3 times. I am meticulous about reloading. I was into benchrest shooting for a while, so some of my habits are a bit anal when it comes to reloads. At times i still find myself chasing that 1 hole group instead of settling on 0.3 moa and just going out and shooting. I still measure all my cases before every reload. Some have needed it earlier than others. I tend to over think and over work certain things, im just not sure if this is one of those things that im over thinking, or literally over working (brass).
Currently most of them have been trimmed 3 times. I am meticulous about reloading. I was into benchrest shooting for a while, so some of my habits are a bit anal when it comes to reloads. At times i still find myself chasing that 1 hole group instead of settling on 0.3 moa and just going out and shooting. I still measure all my cases before every reload. Some have needed it earlier than others. I tend to over think and over work certain things, im just not sure if this is one of those things that im over thinking, or literally over working (brass).
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Loose primers and split necks are inconveniences.
Casehead separations can fuck shit up- both your face and equipment.
Read this: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3305791
Loose primers and split necks are inconveniences.
Casehead separations can fuck shit up- both your face and equipment.
Read this: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3305791
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Why don't you section a couple of pieces and see what they look like on the inside?
That will give you a better idea as to whether they are nearing case head separation. Otherwise, as long as the primer pockets are tight and you are still getting good neck tension I would continue to rock and roll with the brass.
Below are a couple of pictures that show where 308 cases usually separate at:
Why don't you section a couple of pieces and see what they look like on the inside?
That will give you a better idea as to whether they are nearing case head separation. Otherwise, as long as the primer pockets are tight and you are still getting good neck tension I would continue to rock and roll with the brass.
Below are a couple of pictures that show where 308 cases usually separate at:
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
I agree with Kevin.
I don't equate handloading safety with reloading cycle counts. It's more basic than that.
We start the ball rolling with sane and reasonable pressure levels. In the long run, hot loads have no upside. Mainly, this limits case sidewall stretch, which is the basis for case head separations. That's the big, bad, truly dangerous case killer.
This leaves us pretty much mostly with neck splits and primer pocket expansion. The latter is probably more likely to cause harm than the former. Again, sane and reasonable pressure limits will keep pocket expansion in rein.
I don't anneal, and I don't trim. Basically, I don't have to. I keep my loads within reason. My primary case retirement criterion is pocket expansion.
Seriously folks, brass is just another component. It's different because we get to reuse it. But good conservation also admits that brass will not last forever. It lasts as long as it lasts. Part with it gracefully and get you some more.
Greg
I agree with Kevin.
I don't equate handloading safety with reloading cycle counts. It's more basic than that.
We start the ball rolling with sane and reasonable pressure levels. In the long run, hot loads have no upside. Mainly, this limits case sidewall stretch, which is the basis for case head separations. That's the big, bad, truly dangerous case killer.
This leaves us pretty much mostly with neck splits and primer pocket expansion. The latter is probably more likely to cause harm than the former. Again, sane and reasonable pressure limits will keep pocket expansion in rein.
I don't anneal, and I don't trim. Basically, I don't have to. I keep my loads within reason. My primary case retirement criterion is pocket expansion.
Seriously folks, brass is just another component. It's different because we get to reuse it. But good conservation also admits that brass will not last forever. It lasts as long as it lasts. Part with it gracefully and get you some more.
Greg
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Have you done the math to see what a piece of brass is saving you by firing it 19x over 10x? It's the law of diminishing return. Add to that the risk of flame cutting your boltface or a case letting go and your return definitely isn't there. People have and will run brass for many firings. I would rather play it safe and dump the brass after 10 loads and roll on.
Have you done the math to see what a piece of brass is saving you by firing it 19x over 10x? It's the law of diminishing return. Add to that the risk of flame cutting your boltface or a case letting go and your return definitely isn't there. People have and will run brass for many firings. I would rather play it safe and dump the brass after 10 loads and roll on.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
19D,
If you're concerned about this (and it's perfectly reasonable to have such questions), there's several ways to check the status of the brass. Some are sacrificial, and will cost you the brass, others will not. Looking at the outside of the brass will usually give you plenty of warning as to a pending head separation, if you know what to look for. In this instance, it's a discolored or roughened section of brass, right around the point that the pic posted here shows the splits. Unless something is way out of kilter on the headspace (either your sizing or the chamber), this discoloration will show up plainly before you lose the case. Toss it at that point. You can also check this with a bent paper clip with a point sharpened on the end. Using a fine file, sharpen a small point on one end of a paper clip that you've straightened out. Put a 90 degree bend about 1/8" ahead of the point. You can now insert the wire into the case, and using the sharpened tip, drag it along inner wall of the case. If the case is thinning (stretching), you'll feel the tip when it traverses the weakend area. Again, if that dip is present, it's time to toss the brass, even if the discoloration hasn't appeared on the outside of the case. This is truly a sistuation where you're better off safe than sorry. Brass doesn't cost that much, and it's always better to err on the side of safety.
The last method entails simply looking at the brass and seeing if the thinning is developing. This can be destructive if you section the case, or not, if you have a borescope. Actually, my own borescopes probably see as much use in this respect as they do checking out the actual rifled barrel. Insert the scope in the case, and simply see if the case is stretching. If it is, you'll see it plain as day. Lacking a bore scope,now you're getting into destructive methods; sectioning the case. Simply use a hack saw to cut the case lengthwise from the head up into the body section, and see what the inside looks like. Again, if there's a thinned section, you'll see it very plainly.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, much of this depends on what you're loading for. You're dealing with a very strong action, that won't allow for a great deal of flex. Keep you're sizing (bumping the shoulder) to a minimum, avoid working the necks more than you need to by using an appropriately sized bushing, and you're halfway home. The real key is to simply avoid the stupid pressures. when I hear guys complaining that primer pockets are loosening after one or two firings, I'll bet money right then and there that their loads are well over what they should be. Lot of factors involved here, but that's a biggie.
With some other action types (I already mentioned the M1 and M14 family) short case life is simply the cost of addmission. In these rifles, three firings, period, end of story, time to quit even if the brass "looks" fine. All depends on what you're doing, and you're already asking all the right questions.
19D,
If you're concerned about this (and it's perfectly reasonable to have such questions), there's several ways to check the status of the brass. Some are sacrificial, and will cost you the brass, others will not. Looking at the outside of the brass will usually give you plenty of warning as to a pending head separation, if you know what to look for. In this instance, it's a discolored or roughened section of brass, right around the point that the pic posted here shows the splits. Unless something is way out of kilter on the headspace (either your sizing or the chamber), this discoloration will show up plainly before you lose the case. Toss it at that point. You can also check this with a bent paper clip with a point sharpened on the end. Using a fine file, sharpen a small point on one end of a paper clip that you've straightened out. Put a 90 degree bend about 1/8" ahead of the point. You can now insert the wire into the case, and using the sharpened tip, drag it along inner wall of the case. If the case is thinning (stretching), you'll feel the tip when it traverses the weakend area. Again, if that dip is present, it's time to toss the brass, even if the discoloration hasn't appeared on the outside of the case. This is truly a sistuation where you're better off safe than sorry. Brass doesn't cost that much, and it's always better to err on the side of safety.
The last method entails simply looking at the brass and seeing if the thinning is developing. This can be destructive if you section the case, or not, if you have a borescope. Actually, my own borescopes probably see as much use in this respect as they do checking out the actual rifled barrel. Insert the scope in the case, and simply see if the case is stretching. If it is, you'll see it plain as day. Lacking a bore scope,now you're getting into destructive methods; sectioning the case. Simply use a hack saw to cut the case lengthwise from the head up into the body section, and see what the inside looks like. Again, if there's a thinned section, you'll see it very plainly.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, much of this depends on what you're loading for. You're dealing with a very strong action, that won't allow for a great deal of flex. Keep you're sizing (bumping the shoulder) to a minimum, avoid working the necks more than you need to by using an appropriately sized bushing, and you're halfway home. The real key is to simply avoid the stupid pressures. when I hear guys complaining that primer pockets are loosening after one or two firings, I'll bet money right then and there that their loads are well over what they should be. Lot of factors involved here, but that's a biggie.
With some other action types (I already mentioned the M1 and M14 family) short case life is simply the cost of addmission. In these rifles, three firings, period, end of story, time to quit even if the brass "looks" fine. All depends on what you're doing, and you're already asking all the right questions.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
All great replies guys, thank you.
Inode, No i havent done the math to see what it was saving me. I honestly didnt reload them this many times intentionally. In the process of moving i had my regular log still packed up and didnt use it to log the last few reloads. I keep it marked on the outside of the MTM case and also inside the case. I also keep all my load data on the inside of my scope cover so i not only know what the dope is but also what exact round its for. Anyways, after finally pulling my original log book back out, i decided to update it with the information that i added when it was still packed away. Thats when i added everything up and realized that i was at 19 loads. I believe in an earlier post that i said, i thought i was some where around 12 loads. Thats why i have been looking for new Lapua brass. Once realizing the number of reloads on the brass, i just thru the question out there with every intention of purchasing new brass. It just got me to wondering, thats all. oh, by the way, i think you are the first one to actually give a number as to how many reloads before tossing the brass. I understand that there are many factors as far as quality, pressure, and so forth, but thank you.
Rookie, yes im in the military. I definitely appreciate the offer. I just may take you up on that in the future if thats ok. I dont know if i really want to risk any damage to my firearm, so i may just throw these out. But thank you! you are very kind.
Kevin, I dont even know where to start with yours. There is just so much information there. I dont have access to a bore scope so i plan to just take a hack saw to a piece of brass and see what i come up with. I haven't noticed any discolored or roughened sections of brass before or after firing. I believe that my brass has served me very well and its about time to retire it. So i will buy new lapua brass and toss these "just in case". I will do a search on here to figure out how to post pictures and as i have the time i post pictures of the brass before cutting it open, in case you can see any signs of excessive wear, and after i cut it open.
Again, everyone, thank you for your comments and sharing your knowledge on this subject for me.
All great replies guys, thank you.
Inode, No i havent done the math to see what it was saving me. I honestly didnt reload them this many times intentionally. In the process of moving i had my regular log still packed up and didnt use it to log the last few reloads. I keep it marked on the outside of the MTM case and also inside the case. I also keep all my load data on the inside of my scope cover so i not only know what the dope is but also what exact round its for. Anyways, after finally pulling my original log book back out, i decided to update it with the information that i added when it was still packed away. Thats when i added everything up and realized that i was at 19 loads. I believe in an earlier post that i said, i thought i was some where around 12 loads. Thats why i have been looking for new Lapua brass. Once realizing the number of reloads on the brass, i just thru the question out there with every intention of purchasing new brass. It just got me to wondering, thats all. oh, by the way, i think you are the first one to actually give a number as to how many reloads before tossing the brass. I understand that there are many factors as far as quality, pressure, and so forth, but thank you.
Rookie, yes im in the military. I definitely appreciate the offer. I just may take you up on that in the future if thats ok. I dont know if i really want to risk any damage to my firearm, so i may just throw these out. But thank you! you are very kind.
Kevin, I dont even know where to start with yours. There is just so much information there. I dont have access to a bore scope so i plan to just take a hack saw to a piece of brass and see what i come up with. I haven't noticed any discolored or roughened sections of brass before or after firing. I believe that my brass has served me very well and its about time to retire it. So i will buy new lapua brass and toss these "just in case". I will do a search on here to figure out how to post pictures and as i have the time i post pictures of the brass before cutting it open, in case you can see any signs of excessive wear, and after i cut it open.
Again, everyone, thank you for your comments and sharing your knowledge on this subject for me.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Hey, I had a 19D secondary, with an 11B primary. Gotta stick together, Hooah!
Hey, I had a 19D secondary, with an 11B primary. Gotta stick together, Hooah!
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
<span style="font-style: italic">"Again, i cant find a number anywhere. Not trying to start an argument here, i am seriously trying to find an answer."</span>
You seriously won't find the "answer" anywhere because it doesn't exist. Excessive case stretching varies far too much for anyone who knows what he's talking about to even try to answer.
First, cases don't "flow" when fired, not the way I think it gets understood. The important, potentially dangerous head-to-shoulder stretch occurs near the head, at the point where the thin side wall begins to thicken into the web as you can see in the good photos above. FL sizing typically sets the shoulder back further than it needs to be; that results in additional stretching at that same point each time it's fired. How many cycles a case needs to stretch until it seperates will vary by the actual size of YOUR chamber, the ductility of YOUR cases, the actual dimensions of YOUR dies and how YOU adjust your FL sizer; that's a lot of variabables which no one can know or predict.
You need to understand that brass cases do NOT FLOW during firing; brass flow comes during the FL resizing stage. Fired cases expand to fit both the diameter and the head-to-shoulder length of the chamber. The sizer squeezes the expanded cases down and sets the shoulders back. All that squeezing and setting the shoulder back in a die can only end up with pushing the expanded metal so it flows forward into the neck; that's all that can happen, everything else is surrounded by steel. So, cases get longer each time they're FL sized and that's the flow you read about. How many times a case can be fired or trimmed before it's too much depends on all of the above variables AND how much you actually trim each time.
IF you adjust your FL sizer so your cases closely fit YOUR chamber they will stretch less when fired, will flow less when sized and therefore will last much longer than they will if you just jam the fired cases as far into the die as you can make them go the way most reloaders do.
<span style="font-style: italic">"Again, i cant find a number anywhere. Not trying to start an argument here, i am seriously trying to find an answer."</span>
You seriously won't find the "answer" anywhere because it doesn't exist. Excessive case stretching varies far too much for anyone who knows what he's talking about to even try to answer.
First, cases don't "flow" when fired, not the way I think it gets understood. The important, potentially dangerous head-to-shoulder stretch occurs near the head, at the point where the thin side wall begins to thicken into the web as you can see in the good photos above. FL sizing typically sets the shoulder back further than it needs to be; that results in additional stretching at that same point each time it's fired. How many cycles a case needs to stretch until it seperates will vary by the actual size of YOUR chamber, the ductility of YOUR cases, the actual dimensions of YOUR dies and how YOU adjust your FL sizer; that's a lot of variabables which no one can know or predict.
You need to understand that brass cases do NOT FLOW during firing; brass flow comes during the FL resizing stage. Fired cases expand to fit both the diameter and the head-to-shoulder length of the chamber. The sizer squeezes the expanded cases down and sets the shoulders back. All that squeezing and setting the shoulder back in a die can only end up with pushing the expanded metal so it flows forward into the neck; that's all that can happen, everything else is surrounded by steel. So, cases get longer each time they're FL sized and that's the flow you read about. How many times a case can be fired or trimmed before it's too much depends on all of the above variables AND how much you actually trim each time.
IF you adjust your FL sizer so your cases closely fit YOUR chamber they will stretch less when fired, will flow less when sized and therefore will last much longer than they will if you just jam the fired cases as far into the die as you can make them go the way most reloaders do.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Wow. You got a lot of advice, some well informed and some not so much.
Loaded 19 times, not annealed, trimmed 3 times. You have only had to trim 3 times, you are a dandy at resizing, my hat is off to you sir. This would also indicate they have not grown or stretched much, again because you know what you are doing.
Neck splits and loose primer pockets is what has limited my brass life. Brass does not have an infinite life but it is often surprising how long it can SAFELY last.
I have safely fired loads in brass that would barely hold a primer but it did hold and was fine.
I have a friend who has 100 6BR cases that have been used in monthly competition for over 15 years...still quite fine. No apparent thinning, no loose pockets. He minimally FL sizes every case, trims and has a regular annealing regimen.
If you know what you are doing, and do it religiously, a case lasts till the primer pocket gives up the ghost. Yes you can lose them to neck splits but not likely if you anneal properly.
Case head separation is caused by improper sizing or headspace or both. It is not caused from trimming a case and/or firing them too many times. Can you fire and trim till the case separates? Hell, sure you can. I will double damn bet you the primer pocket will faill first if you size correct.
The paper clip trick is a dandy and I have used it myself many times. I have also sacrificed one or two to a bandsaw. If in doubt cut up one with a loose primer pocket.
I your loads are mild to moderate you should be fine for a few more loadings. Err on the side of caution in all your loading but don't be shocked if your brass outlasts its ability to hold the fuse. You will be fine, it appears you know your shit, carry on.
Wow. You got a lot of advice, some well informed and some not so much.
Loaded 19 times, not annealed, trimmed 3 times. You have only had to trim 3 times, you are a dandy at resizing, my hat is off to you sir. This would also indicate they have not grown or stretched much, again because you know what you are doing.
Neck splits and loose primer pockets is what has limited my brass life. Brass does not have an infinite life but it is often surprising how long it can SAFELY last.
I have safely fired loads in brass that would barely hold a primer but it did hold and was fine.
I have a friend who has 100 6BR cases that have been used in monthly competition for over 15 years...still quite fine. No apparent thinning, no loose pockets. He minimally FL sizes every case, trims and has a regular annealing regimen.
If you know what you are doing, and do it religiously, a case lasts till the primer pocket gives up the ghost. Yes you can lose them to neck splits but not likely if you anneal properly.
Case head separation is caused by improper sizing or headspace or both. It is not caused from trimming a case and/or firing them too many times. Can you fire and trim till the case separates? Hell, sure you can. I will double damn bet you the primer pocket will faill first if you size correct.
The paper clip trick is a dandy and I have used it myself many times. I have also sacrificed one or two to a bandsaw. If in doubt cut up one with a loose primer pocket.
I your loads are mild to moderate you should be fine for a few more loadings. Err on the side of caution in all your loading but don't be shocked if your brass outlasts its ability to hold the fuse. You will be fine, it appears you know your shit, carry on.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Agreed fuzzball. I would add that movement of the brass stems from the weakest point near the base of the powder column (where ignition begins) and the neck is always the lowest energy expansion route for the excess brass. So it does always go that way.
Agreed fuzzball. I would add that movement of the brass stems from the weakest point near the base of the powder column (where ignition begins) and the neck is always the lowest energy expansion route for the excess brass. So it does always go that way.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
"Agreed fuzzball. I would add that movement of the brass stems from the weakest point near the base of the powder column (where ignition begins)"
Well, yes, but ... it really has nothing to do with the weakest point or where the burn begins, as such.
The firing pin slams each case forward to the chamber shoulder and the explosive force of the primer adds to that forward slam; the typical bottle neck case gets the shoulder set back a thou or two with that combined slam. As ignition pressure builds, the thin forward portion of the case will expand and grip the chamber too tightly to slide back as the pressure increases. Eventually the pressure exceeds the tensile strength of the brass side wall and pushes the unsupported case head back until it stops at the bolt face.
The case head and web section MUST stretch to fill the loose chamber space, aka 'head space' and it does it at the point where the lower case wall has suffient strength to resist the forces causing the weaker/thinner forepart to expand and cling to the chamber. Duplicating the streching at the same unsupported point WILL eventually cause a ring of thinning, called incipient (or the beginning) of a full head seperation. Head seperations at 50k psi or more are not trivial things.
"Agreed fuzzball. I would add that movement of the brass stems from the weakest point near the base of the powder column (where ignition begins)"
Well, yes, but ... it really has nothing to do with the weakest point or where the burn begins, as such.
The firing pin slams each case forward to the chamber shoulder and the explosive force of the primer adds to that forward slam; the typical bottle neck case gets the shoulder set back a thou or two with that combined slam. As ignition pressure builds, the thin forward portion of the case will expand and grip the chamber too tightly to slide back as the pressure increases. Eventually the pressure exceeds the tensile strength of the brass side wall and pushes the unsupported case head back until it stops at the bolt face.
The case head and web section MUST stretch to fill the loose chamber space, aka 'head space' and it does it at the point where the lower case wall has suffient strength to resist the forces causing the weaker/thinner forepart to expand and cling to the chamber. Duplicating the streching at the same unsupported point WILL eventually cause a ring of thinning, called incipient (or the beginning) of a full head seperation. Head seperations at 50k psi or more are not trivial things.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
As an example, I have a lot (50 pieces) of brass that has gone though 36 reload cycles, but I must admit its getting old.
I shoot a rather stiff but sane load of 47.8 gr Varget with 155 Scenars at 2.943" or 0.15 jump.
I have not lost a single primer pocket, I have lost 2 cases to body cracks, and the paper-clip trick has culled 2 cases for ICHS.
This set has been neck only sized most of the time with 5 shoulder pushbacks. The necks have never been annealed. I was doing this as a pure experiment just to see how the case life would go.
In the beginning, it would go 6 reload cycles between shoulder pushbacks, now it is down to 3. I measure shouder position before NO sizing, and if the shoulder needs pushed back, I use a Redding body die, and then measure the shoulder again.
I will likely retire this lot of cases in the spring time.
As an example, I have a lot (50 pieces) of brass that has gone though 36 reload cycles, but I must admit its getting old.
I shoot a rather stiff but sane load of 47.8 gr Varget with 155 Scenars at 2.943" or 0.15 jump.
I have not lost a single primer pocket, I have lost 2 cases to body cracks, and the paper-clip trick has culled 2 cases for ICHS.
This set has been neck only sized most of the time with 5 shoulder pushbacks. The necks have never been annealed. I was doing this as a pure experiment just to see how the case life would go.
In the beginning, it would go 6 reload cycles between shoulder pushbacks, now it is down to 3. I measure shouder position before NO sizing, and if the shoulder needs pushed back, I use a Redding body die, and then measure the shoulder again.
I will likely retire this lot of cases in the spring time.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Armor: "Case head separation...is not caused from trimming a case..."
You're correct, good catch, I worded my trimming comment poorly.
What I intended to say (but did not) is we NEED to trim to prevent bullet pinch in the case mouth. Otherwise things will get hairy no matter what else we may do; meaning a faiure to trim enough can be a problem, not trimming too much.
Armor: "Case head separation...is not caused from trimming a case..."
You're correct, good catch, I worded my trimming comment poorly.
What I intended to say (but did not) is we NEED to trim to prevent bullet pinch in the case mouth. Otherwise things will get hairy no matter what else we may do; meaning a faiure to trim enough can be a problem, not trimming too much.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armor: "Case head separation...is not caused from trimming a case..."
You're correct, good catch, I worded my trimming comment poorly.
What I intended to say (but did not) is we NEED to trim to prevent bullet pinch in the case mouth. Otherwise things will get hairy no matter what else we may do; meaning a faiure to trim enough can be a problem, not trimming too much. </div></div>
Still, we agree wholeheartedly on this subject.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Armor: "Case head separation...is not caused from trimming a case..."
You're correct, good catch, I worded my trimming comment poorly.
What I intended to say (but did not) is we NEED to trim to prevent bullet pinch in the case mouth. Otherwise things will get hairy no matter what else we may do; meaning a faiure to trim enough can be a problem, not trimming too much. </div></div>
Still, we agree wholeheartedly on this subject.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Do anyone here remember the article about BR shooters using the same cases hundreds of times? It was some insane number like 700+! I thought it sounded crazy but there were many who attested to the validity of it.
All were fired from custom actions with tight tolerances.
Might want to check some of the BR reloading sites, just a thought.
Do anyone here remember the article about BR shooters using the same cases hundreds of times? It was some insane number like 700+! I thought it sounded crazy but there were many who attested to the validity of it.
All were fired from custom actions with tight tolerances.
Might want to check some of the BR reloading sites, just a thought.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Absolutely, and such longevity is perfectly normal for that application. That said, it's not a fair comparison for exactly the reasons you cited. While Benchresters tend to run very hot loads, their chambers are cut so closely as to allow very little movement. They also generally F/L size their cases, but the precocess bears little to no resemblence to what those of us using 7/8x14" threaded dies would recognize. Totally different world, with totally different requirements and methods, that shouldn't be confused with "conventional" reloading like most of us perform.
Absolutely, and such longevity is perfectly normal for that application. That said, it's not a fair comparison for exactly the reasons you cited. While Benchresters tend to run very hot loads, their chambers are cut so closely as to allow very little movement. They also generally F/L size their cases, but the precocess bears little to no resemblence to what those of us using 7/8x14" threaded dies would recognize. Totally different world, with totally different requirements and methods, that shouldn't be confused with "conventional" reloading like most of us perform.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
Doesn't brand of brass factor in this equation as well? I have a batch of Federal brass that's been reloaded only 4 times, but they have very little neck tension.
I use a Lee collet neck sizing die, but it's not at all precise in regards to how much pressure to apply. It was my thought that I should toss this brass instead of taking my chances on another load.
Doesn't brand of brass factor in this equation as well? I have a batch of Federal brass that's been reloaded only 4 times, but they have very little neck tension.
I use a Lee collet neck sizing die, but it's not at all precise in regards to how much pressure to apply. It was my thought that I should toss this brass instead of taking my chances on another load.
Re: How many reloads become unsafe?
DubGunner,
Certainly it does! However, the lack of neck tension you've cited isn't a sign of worn out brass, but of how you're reloading. This can be corrected very easily by switching dies, using a tighter bushing, a smaller expander ball (if one is used at all), annealing, etc.. Lots of solutions here, and it doesn't sound like the brass is anywhere near needing to be tossed. Split case necks (which can also result from overworking brass), <span style="text-decoration: underline">that's</span> a reason to toss the brass. Expanded primer pockets that no longer secure a primer correctly, that's another. Signs of impending case head separations, definately.
Absent any of these, so long as the brass can be restored to proper dimensions to accept new bullets and primers, it should be good to go. Now the make of the brass, and how hard it is to begin with, will definately go into this equation. How heavy the loads are that are used in this brass will definately impact just how long it will be able to perform these tasks, and that's going to depend on the make of the brass, which is what I think you're asking here?
Anyway, hope that helps.
DubGunner,
Certainly it does! However, the lack of neck tension you've cited isn't a sign of worn out brass, but of how you're reloading. This can be corrected very easily by switching dies, using a tighter bushing, a smaller expander ball (if one is used at all), annealing, etc.. Lots of solutions here, and it doesn't sound like the brass is anywhere near needing to be tossed. Split case necks (which can also result from overworking brass), <span style="text-decoration: underline">that's</span> a reason to toss the brass. Expanded primer pockets that no longer secure a primer correctly, that's another. Signs of impending case head separations, definately.
Absent any of these, so long as the brass can be restored to proper dimensions to accept new bullets and primers, it should be good to go. Now the make of the brass, and how hard it is to begin with, will definately go into this equation. How heavy the loads are that are used in this brass will definately impact just how long it will be able to perform these tasks, and that's going to depend on the make of the brass, which is what I think you're asking here?
Anyway, hope that helps.
