On a rifle (Rem 700) where the scope is not being removed routinely, which mounting system do you think works better? Picatinny rail with Mk4 style rings or dual dovetail rings and bases front and rear. The DD design seems quite solid and gives an overall lower, smoother profile in most examples I've seen.
Rifle Scopes Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
- Thread starter MJY65
- Start date
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
i assume you dont need/want a 20moa base?
i assume you dont need/want a 20moa base?
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
I can see no reason to use the "dual dovetail" style mounts on a Remington. If the dovetail isn't milled in the receiver, use a pic style rail.
I can see no reason to use the "dual dovetail" style mounts on a Remington. If the dovetail isn't milled in the receiver, use a pic style rail.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can see no reason to use the "dual dovetail" style mounts on a Remington. If the dovetail isn't milled in the receiver, use a pic style rail. </div></div>
My thoughts are that it replaces a clamp with the rotary dovetail and eliminates cross bolts that stick out and snag. It also leaves the ejection port wide open for loading.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can see no reason to use the "dual dovetail" style mounts on a Remington. If the dovetail isn't milled in the receiver, use a pic style rail. </div></div>
My thoughts are that it replaces a clamp with the rotary dovetail and eliminates cross bolts that stick out and snag. It also leaves the ejection port wide open for loading.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
The cross bolts sit flush, the nuts are on the opposite side as the ejection port. I've never had any problem with them snagging or with loading through the port. .
The cross bolts sit flush, the nuts are on the opposite side as the ejection port. I've never had any problem with them snagging or with loading through the port. .
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
A two piece or Leupold style mount is indeed a lighter, slimmer mounting arrangement than a pic rail, but obviously, nowhere near as cool.
Around here, most folks are going to advocate the pic rail, as it is "tactical'.
I argue there is no need for a pic rail if you don't need the angle. In regard to the argument that "the pic rail stiffens the action"...well, I've seen a lot of rifles with two piece bases shoot extremely well, so any added stiffness is probably not required.
A two piece or Leupold style mount is indeed a lighter, slimmer mounting arrangement than a pic rail, but obviously, nowhere near as cool.
Around here, most folks are going to advocate the pic rail, as it is "tactical'.
I argue there is no need for a pic rail if you don't need the angle. In regard to the argument that "the pic rail stiffens the action"...well, I've seen a lot of rifles with two piece bases shoot extremely well, so any added stiffness is probably not required.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
They make a set of direct bolt rings as well - those might even beat the DD setup for simplicity.
http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting...4000025_d_21280
They make a set of direct bolt rings as well - those might even beat the DD setup for simplicity.
http://www.brownells.com/optics-mounting...4000025_d_21280
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
I'll second Turbo54's advice.
If you want the approval of the SH community, get the rail.
If you don't need their approval, get the DD. A more worry free setup for hunting IMO.
As for the rail stiffening the action, I have never seen the results from scientific testing that was done to arrive at this conclusion. You certainly don't need it for a hunting rig.
I'll second Turbo54's advice.
If you want the approval of the SH community, get the rail.
If you don't need their approval, get the DD. A more worry free setup for hunting IMO.
As for the rail stiffening the action, I have never seen the results from scientific testing that was done to arrive at this conclusion. You certainly don't need it for a hunting rig.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
One major advantage to a picatinny rail is you can get them with recoil lugs. A heavy scope is a lot for a few little 6-48 screws to hold.
You can get a picatinny rail setup that weighs less than a set of Leupold dual dovetail mounts. The Leupold dual dovetail two piece set I have sitting in front of me right now weigh 5.9oz for the two piece base and a set of 1" medium rings. Taller or 30mm rings will weigh more.
A weaver 20MOA rail for a R700 short action weighs 2oz on the dot with the screws and has a recoil lug. There are aluminum picatinny rings out there around 3oz or less. I believe MK4's are 2.7oz but I could be wrong.
That setup will be as light or lighter, it won't put as much stress on the screws, and it won't put as much stress on the scope as a two piece dual dovetail setup. You also don't have to remove the scope from the rings if you need to take the scope off. This means it will be closer to zero and you won't have to level and retorque everything.
Picatinny is the way to go.
One major advantage to a picatinny rail is you can get them with recoil lugs. A heavy scope is a lot for a few little 6-48 screws to hold.
You can get a picatinny rail setup that weighs less than a set of Leupold dual dovetail mounts. The Leupold dual dovetail two piece set I have sitting in front of me right now weigh 5.9oz for the two piece base and a set of 1" medium rings. Taller or 30mm rings will weigh more.
A weaver 20MOA rail for a R700 short action weighs 2oz on the dot with the screws and has a recoil lug. There are aluminum picatinny rings out there around 3oz or less. I believe MK4's are 2.7oz but I could be wrong.
That setup will be as light or lighter, it won't put as much stress on the screws, and it won't put as much stress on the scope as a two piece dual dovetail setup. You also don't have to remove the scope from the rings if you need to take the scope off. This means it will be closer to zero and you won't have to level and retorque everything.
Picatinny is the way to go.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
I have both and the DD from leupold has never shifted. I aligned properly and lapped them before installation of the scope. My other 700 has a Leupold Mk4 2 pc pic rail and mk4 steel rings. Both are rock solid but the DD was right around $200 less. I recently sold a 1pc leupold mk4 base for the reason you stated. It really got in the way when loading from the top and on several occasions a live round would get trapped in the left bolt-raceway...pita to get out with a 1pc rail. A lot of the same people who say a 1pc rail adds strength have a cut-out in the side of their receiver for the bolt release...go figure
I have both and the DD from leupold has never shifted. I aligned properly and lapped them before installation of the scope. My other 700 has a Leupold Mk4 2 pc pic rail and mk4 steel rings. Both are rock solid but the DD was right around $200 less. I recently sold a 1pc leupold mk4 base for the reason you stated. It really got in the way when loading from the top and on several occasions a live round would get trapped in the left bolt-raceway...pita to get out with a 1pc rail. A lot of the same people who say a 1pc rail adds strength have a cut-out in the side of their receiver for the bolt release...go figure
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One major advantage to a picatinny rail is you can get them with recoil lugs. A heavy scope is a lot for a few little 6-48 screws to hold.</div></div>
Maybe I'm visualizing this incorrectly, but wouldn't the recoil lugs be adding strength to the ring/rail interface? The entire mount is still held to the receiver by the same 4 6-48 screws.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: redneckbmxer24</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One major advantage to a picatinny rail is you can get them with recoil lugs. A heavy scope is a lot for a few little 6-48 screws to hold.</div></div>
Maybe I'm visualizing this incorrectly, but wouldn't the recoil lugs be adding strength to the ring/rail interface? The entire mount is still held to the receiver by the same 4 6-48 screws.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
The recoil lug he is referring too, is an integral part of the scope rail. The recoil lug is there to prevent the rail from wanting to slide forward during recoil, thus potentially damaging or breaking those little bitty screws.
The rings will have a recoil lug that sits inside the slots of the rail, thus preventing their movement as well.
DK
The recoil lug he is referring too, is an integral part of the scope rail. The recoil lug is there to prevent the rail from wanting to slide forward during recoil, thus potentially damaging or breaking those little bitty screws.
The rings will have a recoil lug that sits inside the slots of the rail, thus preventing their movement as well.
DK
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The recoil lug he is referring too, is an integral part of the scope rail. The recoil lug is there to prevent the rail from wanting to slide forward during recoil, thus potentially damaging or breaking those little bitty screws.
The rings will have a recoil lug that sits inside the slots of the rail, thus preventing their movement as well.
DK </div></div>
Where does the lug engage the receiver?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: z71rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The recoil lug he is referring too, is an integral part of the scope rail. The recoil lug is there to prevent the rail from wanting to slide forward during recoil, thus potentially damaging or breaking those little bitty screws.
The rings will have a recoil lug that sits inside the slots of the rail, thus preventing their movement as well.
DK </div></div>
Where does the lug engage the receiver?
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
Exactly. It bumps down from the rail and sits against the front of the ejection port. I can take a picture of a spare I have if you would like. Keep in mind not all picatinny rails have recoil lugs, most don't actually.
Exactly. It bumps down from the rail and sits against the front of the ejection port. I can take a picture of a spare I have if you would like. Keep in mind not all picatinny rails have recoil lugs, most don't actually.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
A little more info might be helpful. You started with "Rem 700".
How about:
o Caliber
o Scope (specific)
o Intended use
Regarding DD, it is a good system, but not nearly as robust as a pic rail and appropriate rings. As far as two piece, I have never heard of anyone with a TacOps have a "flexing action" issue affecting accuracy or failing. That's all Mike uses.
Kevin
A little more info might be helpful. You started with "Rem 700".
How about:
o Caliber
o Scope (specific)
o Intended use
Regarding DD, it is a good system, but not nearly as robust as a pic rail and appropriate rings. As far as two piece, I have never heard of anyone with a TacOps have a "flexing action" issue affecting accuracy or failing. That's all Mike uses.
Kevin
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
I have a 20moa dual dovetail R700 Short Action base I'm not using, if you are interested PM me.
I have a 20moa dual dovetail R700 Short Action base I'm not using, if you are interested PM me.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
I've personally had the Leupold dovetail system shift on me on hunting rifles that get banged around. It's garbage. I only have one see left on a p'dog rifle now. If I don't want to spend money for the stronger pic tail setup (which can be had lightweight, and offers vastly more mounting options), I look to Talley or Warne Maxima. Not had a problem with either.
It has nothing to do with being "tactical" rather durable and dependable.
I've personally had the Leupold dovetail system shift on me on hunting rifles that get banged around. It's garbage. I only have one see left on a p'dog rifle now. If I don't want to spend money for the stronger pic tail setup (which can be had lightweight, and offers vastly more mounting options), I look to Talley or Warne Maxima. Not had a problem with either.
It has nothing to do with being "tactical" rather durable and dependable.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
Maybe the Leupold ones, but the DD base I used to use couldn't possibly shift since both rings are twisted on.
Maybe the Leupold ones, but the DD base I used to use couldn't possibly shift since both rings are twisted on.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the Leupold ones, but the DD base I used to use couldn't possibly shift since both rings are twisted on. </div></div>
agreed I've had the STD base shift but never the Dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe the Leupold ones, but the DD base I used to use couldn't possibly shift since both rings are twisted on. </div></div>
agreed I've had the STD base shift but never the Dual dovetail
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
the pic rail gives you more options for eye relief also, but not usually an issue with Leupold scopes.
the pic rail gives you more options for eye relief also, but not usually an issue with Leupold scopes.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've personally had the Leupold dovetail system shift on me on hunting rifles that get banged around. It's garbage. </div></div>
Which part failed? I've also had the STD (front dovetail/rear windage screw) loosen, but not the dual dovetail.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've personally had the Leupold dovetail system shift on me on hunting rifles that get banged around. It's garbage. </div></div>
Which part failed? I've also had the STD (front dovetail/rear windage screw) loosen, but not the dual dovetail.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
The base was either out of spec or loose and shifted, the scope ended up dented and lost zero.
I will agree with you for sure, stay away from the STD bases. The rear windage screws always work loose when I've tried them.
The base was either out of spec or loose and shifted, the scope ended up dented and lost zero.
I will agree with you for sure, stay away from the STD bases. The rear windage screws always work loose when I've tried them.
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ctsmith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any thoughts on the two piece Picatinny? </div></div>
Personally, I don't care for them at all. The 2 piece system doesn't lend itself well to how I mount my optics, and there is no way to prevent recoil slip unless you epoxy them to the receiver.
If someone came up with a recoil lug for the front half, and it was made with a 20MOA cant to it, I still wouldn't use it when I can have such a wider range of mounting options with a 1 piece rail.
Bottom line is this... 1 piece Weaver Tactical, Seekins, Badger, or whatever rail you wish... just as long as it is a 1 piece with the integral recoil lug.
DK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ctsmith</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any thoughts on the two piece Picatinny? </div></div>
Personally, I don't care for them at all. The 2 piece system doesn't lend itself well to how I mount my optics, and there is no way to prevent recoil slip unless you epoxy them to the receiver.
If someone came up with a recoil lug for the front half, and it was made with a 20MOA cant to it, I still wouldn't use it when I can have such a wider range of mounting options with a 1 piece rail.
Bottom line is this... 1 piece Weaver Tactical, Seekins, Badger, or whatever rail you wish... just as long as it is a 1 piece with the integral recoil lug.
DK
Re: Picatinny rail vs dual dovetail
I'm with DK. Either a solid rail or for the ultimate in smooth, strong, simple setup for hunting, look at these: http://www.dnzproducts.com/
I ran one for a couple of years on my 308 with a Vortex Viper 6-24. Never had any problems. Fit perfectly and has the fewest joints I think you can get in a scope rail/ring setup.
They don't look tactical but they work.
MIke
I'm with DK. Either a solid rail or for the ultimate in smooth, strong, simple setup for hunting, look at these: http://www.dnzproducts.com/
I ran one for a couple of years on my 308 with a Vortex Viper 6-24. Never had any problems. Fit perfectly and has the fewest joints I think you can get in a scope rail/ring setup.
They don't look tactical but they work.
MIke
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