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Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
I think the shot in the back while the fellow was on the ground may be problematic. However, courts have decided that it is what the officer believed was happening, or going to happen at the time, not what actually did happen that can make a very big difference. Hindsight can often be 20/20, but often, it is what the officer thought was happening, or going to happen that can make the crucial difference.
I think the shot in the back while the fellow was on the ground may be problematic. However, courts have decided that it is what the officer believed was happening, or going to happen at the time, not what actually did happen that can make a very big difference. Hindsight can often be 20/20, but often, it is what the officer thought was happening, or going to happen that can make the crucial difference.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Wow, did he use a Glock 18?
Wow, did he use a Glock 18?
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
I have no love for cops, however from the angle shown Ernie is obviously not compliant, and it certainly appears that he reaches back into the truck for something. Looks justified. Rule number one if you want to live thru police contact: no sudden movements, and put your f'in hands where they can see them.
13 shots, 11 hits, 4 on the ground, atleast one in the back, excessive, but typical of someone scared shitless and/or of their own shadow hence rule #1. In the end 13 shots that end in death have the exact same result as one fatal shot.
Obviously things could've been handled differently by suspect and/or officers anytime from intial contact onward and things would be different, but they weren't, and as it played out, from what can be seen on the video, it looks cleaner than a lot of shoots that get ruled justified.
I have no love for cops, however from the angle shown Ernie is obviously not compliant, and it certainly appears that he reaches back into the truck for something. Looks justified. Rule number one if you want to live thru police contact: no sudden movements, and put your f'in hands where they can see them.
13 shots, 11 hits, 4 on the ground, atleast one in the back, excessive, but typical of someone scared shitless and/or of their own shadow hence rule #1. In the end 13 shots that end in death have the exact same result as one fatal shot.
Obviously things could've been handled differently by suspect and/or officers anytime from intial contact onward and things would be different, but they weren't, and as it played out, from what can be seen on the video, it looks cleaner than a lot of shoots that get ruled justified.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Is "The blaze" website purely a cop bashing... New age entitlement website???
Is "The blaze" website purely a cop bashing... New age entitlement website???
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
btw... Thats a cop that actually needs one of those "NY" triggers! lol
btw... Thats a cop that actually needs one of those "NY" triggers! lol
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Great, another thread that will be full of comments about what they would have done in this situation, and how this or that isn't right based off of a minute long video. Mostly by a bunch of guys who have never pulled the trigger on another person or dealt with actual life and death decisions daily.
It's getting old.
Great, another thread that will be full of comments about what they would have done in this situation, and how this or that isn't right based off of a minute long video. Mostly by a bunch of guys who have never pulled the trigger on another person or dealt with actual life and death decisions daily.
It's getting old.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
13 shots in 4.2 seconds... is not that fast. Consider many USPSA shooters will drill the el presidente qualifier which is 12 shots (3 targets two shots each, reload and reengage with two shots each with the start position gun holstered, hands above shoulders and back to the target) in the 7-8 second range with the better shooters in about half that.
Video is down now.
13 shots in 4.2 seconds... is not that fast. Consider many USPSA shooters will drill the el presidente qualifier which is 12 shots (3 targets two shots each, reload and reengage with two shots each with the start position gun holstered, hands above shoulders and back to the target) in the 7-8 second range with the better shooters in about half that.
Video is down now.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's getting old.</div></div>
In the US, law enforcement operates with the consent of the public. If the public has issue with the way that LE operates, it has every right to raise questions and demand answers. It is the duty of LE to instruct the public on the methods and techniques that it feels necessary to do its job in order to maintain the confidence of the people that it protects.
While I can see where this may seem unfair, it is the way that our system prevents government from obtaining absolute power over the citizenship.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: victory</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's getting old.</div></div>
In the US, law enforcement operates with the consent of the public. If the public has issue with the way that LE operates, it has every right to raise questions and demand answers. It is the duty of LE to instruct the public on the methods and techniques that it feels necessary to do its job in order to maintain the confidence of the people that it protects.
While I can see where this may seem unfair, it is the way that our system prevents government from obtaining absolute power over the citizenship.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
100%
But that doesn't mean that we take one small detail of what happened and start ridiculing what that individual did. Debate is good, but do it with facts, not a one minute video that shows 1/10th of what happened.
100%
But that doesn't mean that we take one small detail of what happened and start ridiculing what that individual did. Debate is good, but do it with facts, not a one minute video that shows 1/10th of what happened.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Heck I can fire a whole magazine 15+1 in 3 secs and hit what I shoot at so 4.2 ain't that fast
Have any of you keyboard kommandos been attacked by a guy with a knife before ? I have
Heck I can fire a whole magazine 15+1 in 3 secs and hit what I shoot at so 4.2 ain't that fast
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is "The blaze" website purely a cop bashing... New age entitlement website??? </div></div>
No, The Blaze is Glen Beck's page. Think of it as The Drudge Report-ish.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slowkota</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is "The blaze" website purely a cop bashing... New age entitlement website??? </div></div>
No, The Blaze is Glen Beck's page. Think of it as The Drudge Report-ish.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
11 of 13 is fantastic shooting in that situation I can assure you. Hit to shot ratio well above what could be considered average hit ratio in an armed confrontation. I would bet my right nut the cop said he thought he only fired 2-3 times.
11 of 13 is fantastic shooting in that situation I can assure you. Hit to shot ratio well above what could be considered average hit ratio in an armed confrontation. I would bet my right nut the cop said he thought he only fired 2-3 times.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
people, in high stress situations you end up using a lot more ammo than you think. for instance, a friend of mine is in law enforcement and was involved in a shooting, he thought he shot 2 or 3 times, when he actually shot 8 times. when the adrenaline is flowing, those more fine motor skills go right out the window
people, in high stress situations you end up using a lot more ammo than you think. for instance, a friend of mine is in law enforcement and was involved in a shooting, he thought he shot 2 or 3 times, when he actually shot 8 times. when the adrenaline is flowing, those more fine motor skills go right out the window
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heck I can fire a whole magazine 15+1 in 3 secs and hit what I shoot at so 4.2 ain't that fast Have any of you keyboard kommandos been attacked by a guy with a knife before ? I have </div></div>
Yep.
Speaking generally, in my experience most of the people who provide the harshest criticism in these situations are the folks who've never actually been in a real life deadly force encounter. Things happen quickly and violently when your life is on the line, and dropping the hammer on a person is a much different scenario than dropping the hammer on a piece of paper.
It looked as if the suspect in this video reached for something inside of the vehicle. Kind of reminded me of that highway patrol video from 1998, where the suspect reached in the vehicle, grabbed his M1 Carbine, then proceeded to kill the officer, who was still yelling at him to show his hands. http://youtu.be/qoI4G1fWmEQ
If you believe that the situation has escalated to a deadly force encounter (as the officer in this more recent video obviously did, as he was yelling "drop the knife"), then you need to decide how important your own life is.
Action, or inaction, can be the difference between going home at the end of the shift, or attending your own funeral. Thing is, the suspect in the video this thread was about had every chance to give up without a fight.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Heck I can fire a whole magazine 15+1 in 3 secs and hit what I shoot at so 4.2 ain't that fast
Yep.
Speaking generally, in my experience most of the people who provide the harshest criticism in these situations are the folks who've never actually been in a real life deadly force encounter. Things happen quickly and violently when your life is on the line, and dropping the hammer on a person is a much different scenario than dropping the hammer on a piece of paper.
It looked as if the suspect in this video reached for something inside of the vehicle. Kind of reminded me of that highway patrol video from 1998, where the suspect reached in the vehicle, grabbed his M1 Carbine, then proceeded to kill the officer, who was still yelling at him to show his hands. http://youtu.be/qoI4G1fWmEQ
If you believe that the situation has escalated to a deadly force encounter (as the officer in this more recent video obviously did, as he was yelling "drop the knife"), then you need to decide how important your own life is.
Action, or inaction, can be the difference between going home at the end of the shift, or attending your own funeral. Thing is, the suspect in the video this thread was about had every chance to give up without a fight.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Amen Colorado
Amen Colorado
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
I would encourage reading some of Col. Grossman's work on killing. He has very good write ups on how the mind observes and reacts to deadly force encounters, good info with a lot of research and interviews on soldiers and officers actually involved in deadly encounters.
This officer did his job. While the shot in the back may look bad, it was justified as was the entire shoot.
I would encourage reading some of Col. Grossman's work on killing. He has very good write ups on how the mind observes and reacts to deadly force encounters, good info with a lot of research and interviews on soldiers and officers actually involved in deadly encounters.
This officer did his job. While the shot in the back may look bad, it was justified as was the entire shoot.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
I don't have any issue with the officer discharging as many rounds as he can as long as he can articulate why he thought the person he was shooting at continued to remain a threat. Gunfights don't end like hollywood would have us imagine, where one good hit causes the shootee to fly backwards with a fatal single gunshot wound.
Just as in a fistfight, you don't stop fighting just because you got in one good punch..in a gunfight, you don't stop just because you got in one, or 10 good shots. You stop when there is no more threat.
The problem will be for the officer to articulate why he needed to shoot someone who was on the ground in the back. He is going to need to articulate/justify how that person posed a sufficient threat to require being shot in the back with the 10th, or 14th, or whatever round it was. I think that will be difficult, (but not insurmountable).
I don't have any issue with the officer discharging as many rounds as he can as long as he can articulate why he thought the person he was shooting at continued to remain a threat. Gunfights don't end like hollywood would have us imagine, where one good hit causes the shootee to fly backwards with a fatal single gunshot wound.
Just as in a fistfight, you don't stop fighting just because you got in one good punch..in a gunfight, you don't stop just because you got in one, or 10 good shots. You stop when there is no more threat.
The problem will be for the officer to articulate why he needed to shoot someone who was on the ground in the back. He is going to need to articulate/justify how that person posed a sufficient threat to require being shot in the back with the 10th, or 14th, or whatever round it was. I think that will be difficult, (but not insurmountable).
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Stopping the action baby. Stopping the action.
Stopping the action baby. Stopping the action.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
This is a crapper, I feel bad for the officer and the schmuck that didn't follow directions.
No difference in an officer shooting a suspect once or 13 times is there? Lethal force is lethal force. Would we get mad at him if he aimed at his head and shot him once? Is that excessive force? Maybe so, I'm not a legal smarty-pants.
I can say, though, that all I ever hear is how dangerous a knife-wielding badguy is, how at 20 feet "you can't draw fast enough to stop a knife attack", how "up close a knife is more deadly than a pistol", etc, etc. I don't actually believe a knife is ever superior to a handgun...but it's out there, plenty of people with more experience than me believe it.
As someone eluded to above...if you don't want the cop to shoot you, listen to him and don't pull out a knife... maybe he didn't get the memo.
This is a crapper, I feel bad for the officer and the schmuck that didn't follow directions.
No difference in an officer shooting a suspect once or 13 times is there? Lethal force is lethal force. Would we get mad at him if he aimed at his head and shot him once? Is that excessive force? Maybe so, I'm not a legal smarty-pants.
I can say, though, that all I ever hear is how dangerous a knife-wielding badguy is, how at 20 feet "you can't draw fast enough to stop a knife attack", how "up close a knife is more deadly than a pistol", etc, etc. I don't actually believe a knife is ever superior to a handgun...but it's out there, plenty of people with more experience than me believe it.
As someone eluded to above...if you don't want the cop to shoot you, listen to him and don't pull out a knife... maybe he didn't get the memo.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what appears in the video it looks like an unnecessary killing. Poorly trained officer over reacting in a stress situation. </div></div>
or a Highly trained officer who didn't give a damn.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maggot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">From what appears in the video it looks like an unnecessary killing. Poorly trained officer over reacting in a stress situation. </div></div>
or a Highly trained officer who didn't give a damn.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
Poorly trained officer. He should have only fired three shots. Two to the chest, one to the head, lifted his pistol, blown the smoke from the barrel, spun it then placed it back into it's holster. I mean really, all he did was smoke one more dirtbag gangbanger
Poorly trained officer. He should have only fired three shots. Two to the chest, one to the head, lifted his pistol, blown the smoke from the barrel, spun it then placed it back into it's holster. I mean really, all he did was smoke one more dirtbag gangbanger
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have any of you keyboard kommandos been attacked by a guy with a knife before ? I have</div></div>
Twice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have any of you keyboard kommandos been attacked by a guy with a knife before ? I have</div></div>
Twice.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
No comment,I am going to let 12 wiser people then i make the final decision.
No comment,I am going to let 12 wiser people then i make the final decision.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have any of you keyboard kommandos been attacked by a guy with a knife before ? I have</div></div>
Twice.</div></div>
Imagine that.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Maser</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hank440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Have any of you keyboard kommandos been attacked by a guy with a knife before ? I have</div></div>
Twice.</div></div>
Imagine that.
Re: 13 shots in 4.2 Seconds?
The old saying don't judge a man til you have walked a mile in his shoes. I bet if the same video happened to a US soldier overseas what would you say. I want to go home at the end of the day. I could care less if someone is shot 1x or 10x. As long as the shoot it good thats all that matters.
The old saying don't judge a man til you have walked a mile in his shoes. I bet if the same video happened to a US soldier overseas what would you say. I want to go home at the end of the day. I could care less if someone is shot 1x or 10x. As long as the shoot it good thats all that matters.
