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26" vs 16-20" .308

clayne_b

clayne_b

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 18, 2009
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Saratoga Springs, Utah
Been trying to find some info.

I have a 26inch SPS varmint .308 In a Mcrees folder. My goal is to have the most compact rifle but still not suffer out to 800 to 1000 yards, Yes I know about DTA... way out of my budget!

So what is your experience with a .308 with a 16 to 20 inch barrel. Velocity? Pictures of longer range groups?

Thank you for any and all info!
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

I've taken a 20" .308 to 1000+ before, it wasn't ideal but the rounds made it there pointy end first. A pretty standard Remington barrel at 20" is going to net you somehwere in the neighborhood of 2500-2525fps with 175gr factor match ammo. If you reload you can push that a bit more also. Being higher in elevation will also help extend your range some with the 20" barrel since thinner air ups the DA and allows the bullet to stay supersonic for longer.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

I think a lot of people are like, " I want a 18"-20" .308" cuz they look cool. Then they go out and shoot it at 1000, and say " yeah I should have got a 26" instead."
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

That's the thing... everyone who's advocated for a shorter barrel has said, "Don't expect to be consistent at a grand with this!"

Then, some have come out and said, "LOOK! My rifle is SO good/I'm SO good that I hit 'minute-of-man' at a grand!"

Then because that guy did it at a given altitude, on a given range, in good wind... everyone thinks it's the norm.

I have a 17" .308. I have it because I wanted a small package that I can own inside 500 with and possibly stretch it out to 700ish on a good day.
 
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Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

I had Teludyne install a StraightJacket on my .308 barrel, and in the process they cut the barrel down to 20". The argument was that barrel length beyond 20" was wasted on .308, so I went ahead with it.

Afterward I saw 2,538 fps from 175gr FGGM as measured on an Oehler 35. I have used the rifle to hit MOA targets at 1,040 yards, but beyond that it's pretty useless.

I'm not experienced enough to say whether it would have performed better with an additional 4-6" in barrel length, but I'm happy with the performance (and weight) of the 20".

Edited to add: velocity measurements were taken here in Georgia; the shooting was outside of Cheyenne, Wyoming. Altitude may have contributed to performance at range.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

16" LMT ~2400 fps with 175SMK
25" 700 2750 fps with 175SMK

I'll let you run the numbers on the differences of drops at any DA. Slow bullets make unknown distance shooting really picky.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

Played with the 20" tubes out to 600 yds. worked fine.... BUT...I had a lot better luck @ 1000 w/22" 1:10 barrel. The Savage 10FP-SR I had preferred 175 SMK's over Varget in the faster twist barrel at the long ranges. It shot as well as my M70 Stealth .308 w/26" tube.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure others will opine but personally I wouldn't go shorter than 22" if you're trying to get to 1K unless it's an exceptionally fast barrel. </div></div>

I agree with Mike. If you really want to give yourself a chance at 1K, 22-24" would be the shortest I'd go on a 308.

Of course if conditions are favorable and you've got a consistent, readable wind, you can launch 'em out of a 16" barrel and get hits. It just won't give you the best chance for success.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

1. Be honest with yourself about range. Tons of folks building for "1000 yard" shooting, then they go to their local 100 yard range to shoot, and they are saddled with more barrel, caliber and optic than they need. Shooting will be more fun if you build for your actual shooting conditions, not what you wish you could do/be. That may be what you are doing, no offense - just Saturn's is all.

I'm shooting for 500 and in, which put me at 18. If I ever try to shoot routinely at 1000, it won't be with a .308.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

Dude I shoot my .22lr at 500 ha ha... When I say 1000 I mean 1000. I have available 2500yards to shoot 5 min from my house.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clayne_b</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dude I shoot my .22lr at 500 ha ha... When I say 1000 I mean 1000. I have available 2500yards to shoot 5 min from my house.
</div></div>

If this is the case, then I'd choose a better round than the 308 for consistent 1k shooting. Rebarrel to a 260 or 243 and tear that steel up! If it's a dedicated 1k rig, a shorty 308 is not the right tool for the job. Don't get me wrong, I love my 308s. I just use them all at 800 yards or less and shoot them in handy packages.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

Not saying it will be a dedicated 1000 yard rifle, It will be shout out to that range though..

It will be used most for coyote hunting. And for a local match that goes out to 650 yards - and some times 900 yards
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

Hi Clayne_b, certain calibers don't do well with the shorter barrels due to the lower velocities and the bullet weight/BC range you have to work with at the longer distances. If you said you were using a 260 then I'd say confidently you could really whack it down and still be comfortable even out to and past 1000 yards. Our short (15") barrels in 260 have nearly identical ballistics to the 28" 308 rifle guys and with our longer barreled 260 rifles the 308's aren't even in the same ballpark. Yeah the short barrels do look cool and are the fad but if you are wanting a LR gun then I'd not go shorter than 22 - 24 inches. Two inches isn't going to make a difference being compact or not but those extra 50 - 100 fps can help when stretching it out.

Good luck with your new gun, wish we had access close by for those kind of distances. I just ordered a 16" McGowen Rem-Age style barrel for my XP-100 and that could be an option for your SPS when you tire of the 308, switch over to a 260 and I think you'll really be happier if you're wanting a better LR caliber in your short action.

Merry Christmas

Topstrap
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

My 5R shoots 1k all day long, with a 20" on it. Matter of fact my lil 6br has no trouble hitting steel at 1k, or my tiny .223 w/ 77's. They will all get you there, just depends on how hard you wanna hit it. If it's steel, I see no pref. unless it's a job, or shootin for prize.
I took my old SKS and in 2 mins we were hittin steel at 1K (" i guess a stop sign is steel lol" was a long time ago, shootin surplus tracers at almost dark. Those were the days, when a man hole cover at 1k was the target, and we all had factory guns from 204- 300WM, but they all got there.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/swatdec2000/index.html
Tac Ops knows their stuff. But If building a true 1k gun, a 308 isn't perfect, but does work. My 24"5r shoots at most 75-80 fps faster than my 20" at the muzzle.
I;m not a true 1k shooter, but have done it many times, but at 6-700yds the SMKs are great, but most are saying the 168 amax handles transsonic better, and get to 1k with a bit more stability.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

You can "get there" with a 16-20". It isn't going to be the greatest. At the local matches, my buddy's 20" starts to open up at 700 yards at sea level with a moderate load of varget and 175s. His scores suffer on F-class targets, but he does pretty good in tactical matches with it. I've not shot matches with my 20" but at 600-700 its still sub-MOA.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

If you want to shoot 1K, then build a rifle for 1k. If you want a easy swinging rifle...it's not a 1k gun, it's short range. That said, it doesn't mean that a shorty won't do 1k...

Just develop a load for the shorter barrel, such as using Varget, maybe 44grn (I've heard up to 45/46grn) behind a 168grnHPBT
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

I have to agree and disagree. For one 700yds isn't short range for most people, nor is 500. I'd say short range 100-200, medium range would be 200-300 Med-LR 300-500 & Extreme or True LR 500- how far you can shoot. But that's just how I see and go about it.
Also there's a HUGE difference in barrel makers, due to slicker, less bearing surface custom tubes. My Hart 6 BR will shoot 200fps faster in 24" than my Savage 6BR in 28". It's all about the barrel, and each one is different. Shorter barrels are stiffer, and more handy for me to move around in the woods. To a BR shooter, that doesn't matter, and a 30" tube is no more difficult to shoot (or pull the trigger) than a 16", so why would they even consider a short brrl? A SWAT member, or Sharp shooter however, may be setting up inside a building, or tight spaces and really don't care if his pill is going 2400 or 2780, as long as it hits it's mark. Which BTW is usually under 100yds in a SWAT situation. At 100yds, not a whole lot matters. (wind, mirage,etc. isn't a problem
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

The following is from last year's Rifles Only school in December, when density altitudes were as low as -2000 feet. The details may not be perfect, but SH user jackinfl can verify the info -- it pertains to his son's rifle.

Most of us at the course had bolt action rifles with at least 23" barrels and we were shooting factory 175 SMK (Federal, Black Hills, Corbon) just fine out to 1,000 yards. Jackinfl and his son were the only ones using factory Hornady 168 (either AMax or TAP).

Jackinfl's barrel was in the 24/25-ish inch length and his son's was in the 22-ish inch length. His son's gun shot Hornady 168 quite well out to 900 yards on 1 MOA and 2 MOA steel. The results were horrible at 1,000 yards -- virtually nothing impacted 2 MOA steel, with impacts easily landing 2 MOA off target in random directions. His sub-MOA gun became a 4 MOA gun at 1,000 yards with Hornady 168 when the bullets went subsonic at roughly 900 yards.

Jack's son switched to factory 175 SMK loads (either BH or Corbon) the next day and was regularly ringing 2 MOA steel at 1,000 yards. We suspected the 175 SMK bullets were also subsonic at 1,000 yards, but at least they weren't yawing wildly.

BTW, jackinfl's longer barrel gun did just fine with Hornady 168 out to 1,000 yards. We figured the extra few inches of barrel kept his bullets supersonic to at least 1,000 yards.

A short barrel can get .308 bullets to 1,000 yards, but at what speed. Furthermore, that bullet's flight characteristics through transonic velocities will determine if respectable accuracy is even a possibility.

As others have stated, you must first understand your realistic target distances, then apply your rifle and ammo to best meet those goals.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

I had good luck with my 22" bartlein with 175gr SMKs @2700fps out to 1000 yards on steel
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

So how much, if any, does barrel twist affect this equation?
Say a 20" with a 1/12 and a 20" with a 1/10 shooting distance of say 500 or farther?
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

My favorite .308 has 22 inches of barrel after the recoil lug (most would consider this a 23" barrel) and is my favorite rig, I also have a couple 20 inchers and one 24 inch. I would love to own a 16-18" gun, but I will go that short when I build a gas gun. Stick with 20-24" and you will be happy.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

I have a 20" barrel on my AI AW.

Southwest Ammo 175 SMK: 2580 fps
Southwest Ammo 155 SMK: 2790 fps
PPU 147 FMJBT: 2845 fps

I got my rifle with the folding stock and picked the 20" barrel so that that it would fit a Pelican 1700 with an SAS TOMB installed.

—Andreas
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trigger Monkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've taken a 20" .308 to 1000+ before, it wasn't ideal but the rounds made it there pointy end first. A pretty standard Remington barrel at 20" is going to net you somehwere in the neighborhood of 2500-2525fps with 175gr factor match ammo. If you reload you can push that a bit more also. Being higher in elevation will also help extend your range some with the 20" barrel since thinner air ups the DA and allows the bullet to stay supersonic for longer. </div></div>

That's probably a pretty accurate assessment. I shoot dry air at elevations that are normally between 5,000-8,000 feet, using a rifle with a 20" barrel. At my "home" range (5,500 feet) I've chronoed my 175gr Matchking handloads at around 2,550 fps; I've exceeded 2,600 fps on some, but my best accuracy load came in at around 2,550 fps. I can reach 1,000 with this gun, but I'd consider it ideal for 800 and less.

I'm pretty sure my twist is 1 in 11 on that rifle (can't recall right off hand at the moment).

My normal range only goes to 600 yards, so this rifle works exceptionally well at that distance.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

thats a bunch of happy horseshit, i shoot my 20" 308 (both of em) to 1200 on a regular basis and consistantly. doesn't matter if its a 25" or a 20" 1000 is just a long shot and not ideal for a 308, if you want to reach much past that or to that get a 260 or any mag and you'll be fine much farther. i shoot my 308 cuz ammo is free, lol.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">doesn't matter if its a 25" or a 20" 1000 is just a long shot and not ideal for a 308, if you want to reach much past that or to that get a 260 or any mag and you'll be fine much farther.</div></div>

Spot on. I recently did some long-range shooting in gusty conditions with two guys: one had a 24" .308 and the other a 24" .260. The difference between wind & elevation holds between my 20" and his 24" .308 wasn't worth mentioning. The difference between our rigs and the .260 was a game changer.

Any .308 will suffer at 1,000 yards regardless of the barrel length. The round will reach farther than that (I've hit chest-sized silhouettes out to 1,500), but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

—Andreas
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thats a bunch of happy horseshit, </div></div>

I am totaly with Joe here, happy horsehit indeed. I shoot my 16" .308 to 1k and beyond quite regularly, and as far as 1200 conditions permiting.

I would have no problem cutting it at 20 or even 18 Curtis, but its up to you. I just posted this elsewhere, but its sooo relevant here:

700 yards

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I was pretty happy with the results, I had one that flew a bit high, but all were pretty good center mass hits. (The three holes off the paper were from previous shooting adventures)
571B54C6.jpg
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

There are many factors that go into long distance shooting, the first and most importent is the shooter and his/her skill level. You will get full powder burn from a 18" barrel 20" is alittle better both with at least a 1-10 twist. If you choose to go shorter you will lose fps, but you make up for that with a faster twist ie 1-9 or better yet a 1-8 for those shooting 16". 1000yds is well within the range for 16" 308 barrel with the proper twist rate and bullet, just look at what DTA is doing with theirs.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

im shooting a R700 AAC-SD with 20" barrel out to 600 all the time.

I'm still working on load data so sometimes my groups are a bit wide. the largest group i have gotten is about 5 inches and the smaller groups i have gotten so far is a bit more than 3 inches.

right now I'm at 44gn of varget behind a 175gn smk and .004 off the lands at 2556fps. I'm about to back it back down around .006-.008 because somewhere around there seems to be my sweet spot so more testing and will be done with my seating depth. might even retest the load to 44.1+ and 43.9- a bit to see if that helps consistency.

the Tac Ops with a 20" barrel will shoot out to 1000 all day with the right shooter. if you build a sturdy rig with high quality parts you'll get high quality results (hopefully). then load testing becomes the project at hand lol
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hennig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree with seanh. Im building an 18" .308 because.. I want one, but itll be on 100-700 duties. The 260 is for 700-1000. </div></div>

This is a good description of a shorter 308 vs a 260. I have a 20" 308 TRG and a 26" 260 TRG. If I could only pick one, it would definitely be the 26" 260! If the winds are variable, the 308 will be frustrating beyond 800 yards. The 308 also requires a more precise estimation of range and very accurate dope beyond 800 yards as it is dropping like a rock!

I shot 110 rounds today through my 20" 308 at 100, 460, 550, 620, 710, and 885 yards. It did really well 710 yards and less in a variety of positions. I hit about 60% on a 1.7moa target at 885. The 260 would have owned that target, all while being more pleasant to shoot!

What do you value more, easy handling or performance? Better yet, get both!

TKAB
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

The question is what do you want to do, and how tight does it need to be? Will you actually ever shoot to 1000 yards?

When I go to the line shooting F class, I shoot a 30" tube at 1000 yards, (until my new build gets finished with a 33) my 185s are pushing 2800FPS, and my brass dies an very early death.

What are your realistic expectations from your rifle. If you are going to regularly shoot to long ranges get a longer tube, 24 to 26 inches. If you are shooting inside of 300 yards 90% of the time, whack it off as short as you want.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

20 inches works well with handloads and SW ammo.


SW ammo 175g SMK SW 118LR 2630 FPS

Varget loads w/ Lapua brass

44.0= 2650
44.1=2660
44.2=2670
44.5=2700


That seems like pretty good speeds for 1000 yards out of a .308. I've had okay luck with it. Of course 2750 would be better.

1000 DA @2650fps

1000 yards 11.0 mils
10mph wind 2.7mils.

Like others have said, if you really want to shoot past 1000 on a regular basis, don't shoot .308.

I'm not sure what speeds you'd get from a 22 inch barrel, but that seems like a good compromise. I have no problem with longer barrels. My 6.5 Creedmoors were both 24 inches.
 
Re: 26" vs 16-20" .308

Dangit, I've shot 1000y with my 20" 7.62x39 and 155's. Yeah, they hit the target, but if someone just farts on the firing line my bullets go out to the edge of the board. Distance isn't the issue, a 22LR will get to 1000y, just don't know on who's target
smile.gif


A 16" or 30" barrel makes a heck of a difference, 300fps tbp. If you're all tacticool and have to have a shorty (I mean the barrel!) then you'll have to compromise somewhere.

When there's no wind, it's all the same. I had a 17" 308, but never used it seriously (comps) beyond 300m as I have other rifles for beyond that. Still fun to shoot at 1000 now and again though, but it does suffer a bit vs guys with 26-30" barrels. Can't deny that.
 
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