Garand case length concern

[jasonZ]

Gentlemen I picked up a M1 Garand recently and I have a question for some of you that are familiar with them. The 30-06 case length is 2.494" and I'm curious if there is an optimum number to shoot for on case length for these rifles? Is the a particular point where they are too long or even to short? I'm new to this rifle and caliber really. I know that's sort of strange for a caliber that's been around so long, but I've never done any reloading for the 30-06 at all. Would an over all length be optimum as well? Any and all info would be great really!
Thanks, Jason

 

[arnie19]

Re: Garand case length concern

I wouldnt let the cases get any longer than specs say although im sure the chamber is longer but you dont know how much longer .As far as bullet seating ,I would seat them at least .300 deep in the neck ,load a clip and see if they function right .I would also use at least .002 or more neck tension .

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Garand case length concern

Sweet I have a couple hundred LC cases and so far most have been under 2.494 but the problem I'm having at this point is getting a primer in em. They have been decrimped, but it sure is a pain with a hand primer! I may have to put em on the press. I try to do most all I can by hand when possible. Just sitting in front of the TV!
Thanks for the info, Jason

 

[ksthomas]

Re: Garand case length concern

TacticalJ,

Couple of things here. First, if you're going to be reloading for a Garand, military cases (like your LC) are the way to go. This means removing primer crimps, unless you're fortunate to run across a good supply of LC Match brass. Dillon's Super Swage is hands down the best and easiest way to do this. One time operation, and after that the primers will seat just like commercial cases. As for case length, that's already been covered. OAL for the '06 is 3.340" max, but most of your loads will probably be shorter. No problem, just so long as you've got sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place and the rifle feeds properly.

Next, make sure you thoroughly resize all cases, with dies best set up using a case gage to make sure Headspace is correct. Full Length is best, Small Base even better. Never Neck Size, under any circumstance for a military semi-auto. Major troubles there, and potentially very dangerous to both shooter and rifle.

Powder choices and bullet weights. Simple options here; keep bullet weights between 150 and 175 grains, and powder burn rates right around the 4895-4064 range. Nothing slower and nothing heavier, or you're risking op rod damage, even with perfectly "safe" loads. Op rods are getting harder to find and more and more costly, so you want to stay away from that particular mess.

And lastly, if you haven't already been informed about this, you should get three (3) firings out of your cases. Even if they still look "good" after the third firing, it's time to toss them. M1s (and M14s, for that matter) are brutally hard on cases. Remember, this was a rifle that was designed to be fired with new, military issue cartridges only. John C. didn't waste any time designing features that would give improved brass life, and that needs to be respected. Three firings and toss, period. Anything beyond that and you're flirting with some very serious problems.

Great rifles, and you can reload successfully for them, but you do need to be aware of their peculiarities and quirks. They're not bolt guns, and they've got a whole different program to follow when you start reloading for them.

 

[BCP]

Re: Garand case length concern

I use book specs for case length and bullet seating then use a light omoderate load of aa2520 4064 or varget. No problems here.

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Garand case length concern

Dies-check, RSBS 14803 small base full size

Powder-check 4895

Bullets-check Hornady 150gr fmj/bt

Brass-sort of check with LC that has been decrimped, how I don't know, but it's harder than hell to seat a primer with my RCBS hand primer! I'm not sure if I need to do them on the press or if I need to just scrap that whole deal and get some different brass! Good thing is the brass was free from a friend who does, and has done a lot of reloading and even for Garand and M1A.

Got a bonus from the seller when he gave me his load data sheet from years of shooting Garands!

I was aware that M1 and M1A's are hard on brass, but no idea of brass life for sure, having never owned one myself. That's good to know as I don't want anything to go badly for me or my rifle!

So I guess my next step is contacting the guy that did the decrimp and see what he has to say about how it was done and such, as well as getting the headspace/case gauge. I have all 3 headspace gauges coming to me, so I can check the actual headspace on the rifle itself before I shoot it!

Any ideas on the primers? I got Federal primers, but I was only able to actually get 4 or 5 done properly. I attempted to push a few in and that failed, so I stopped doing that and would just simply lay the ones that were tight/hard to prime to the side. Out of probably 20 cases, I got 4 or 5 done! I'll try them on the press and see if that changes things I guess, but it seems it's much more difficult than commercial brass in my experience.

If these don't work out for me, then I guess I'll have to hunt up some brass that I can use! How good of an idea is it to get commercial brass to use? Maybe if I only shoot commercial 147fmj and then potentially reloaded them once pending a good inspection?

You guys are great and thank you for the information. I need/want this to be safe to do and shoot as surplus is getting more and more difficult to find, not to mention expensive now! I bought 3 boxes of Winchester 147fmj to use initially as I wasn't seeing any surplus. The seller recommended cmp and stated that the Hornady ammo they sold, although expensive, was really good to shoot. I guess it could become a safe queen, but all the prior safe queens I've had have gone away as I own guns to shoot and enjoy, not sit in my safe! This one could be the first though, as part of the reason I bought it was for nostalgia! New found respect for the GI's that toted this thing around Europe and the Pacific for years in WWII, as well as in Korea!
Thanks, Jason

 

[ksthomas]

Re: Garand case length concern

Ideally, you might want to look at the CCI #34 primer, which is a military equivalent primer. Harder cups, specifically to deal with the issues of a floating firing pin. Yes, commercial brass will work fine in there, but the short case life rule still applies. Beyond that, sounds like you're off to a good start. Don't hesitate to ask if there's anything else we can do!

The worst part of shooting Garands, though, is their inability to talk. One of mine is a DCM (now CMP) gun bought many years ago. A Springfield Armory gun, which according to it's serial number, was made in March of 1943. The gun was entirely rebuilt by the armory (again, based on inspectors cartouche markings, etc.) very early in 1946. Where it went, and what it went through to require a complete rebuild during those few years is something I'd really like to know . . ..

 

[ditchdigger]

Re: Garand case length concern

If you are sure that the primer pockets have been deswaged and you are still having problems seating primers, try using a case neck deburring tool in the primer pocket. It doesn't take much. Just enough to ease back the leading edge of the primer pocket.

 

[aloreman]

Re: Garand case length concern

Why would you small base size brass in a garand. The reason brass life is so short is because the chambers are so generous.

 

[Rainier42]

Re: Garand case length concern

Excellent Garand reloading info here: http://forums.thecmp.org/forumdisplay.php?f=94

 

[ksthomas]

Re: Garand case length concern

aloreman,

S/B sizing isn't always necessary for chambering and functioning in a Garand, but it's genereally the best route to go. It isn't only a question of chambering but also extraction. Using S/B dies reduces the force required for extraction and just makes the gun run smoother all around. As for the short case life, that's simply a fact of life with the Garand, as well as the M14/M1A. They're hard on brass, for a number of different reasons. Just a fact of life when dealing with these guns.

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Garand case length concern

Thank you gentlemen! Yeah the brass was decrimped/swaged with a dillon swager, so I'm not sure what the problem is. I talked with my friend yesterday about it and he is perplexed as well! I will try to use my neck tool on a few and see if that helps at all. I have Federal primers, I believe, but I will look at acquiring some CCI's, as I was advised by the seller that I should use a harder primer as well, but I had these and thought I would try a few in my first batch.

I will end up with about 80 once fired commercial when I shoot the Winchester 147gr fmj's I bought, but I have access to several more of these LC cases that were kept from a Garand shoot by my friend. I would really like to figure out why they won't work.

Last night I ordered a new Sierra manual, since the one I have is a couple versions old I think. The one I have showed 2.484-2.494 as case length, so I'll just keep them all at 2.494 or less, since that's what the Garand was designed around.

As far as brass life, well I know that all brass is eaten faster by semi auto rifles due to flinging them out, extractors biting into them, and so on. My 6.5grendel generally only gets 3-5 loads before they are scrapped. It just eats the rims up and usually dings the necks up during extraction.

The small base dies just keep a tighter dimension on the brass from what I read. Makes a difference when extracting a straight wall case from the chamber I guess, especially when things are dependent on other forces, such as gas operated weapons. I've had 308 cases hang in my bolt guns and have to be forcefully extracted and it's a pain, so I can't imagine how difficult it is when a gas gun hangs up. Especially one you don't want to be beating up! Had an AR10 308 case hang and had to disassemble the rifle, which was no easy task, being that the carrier was partially back in the tube. I don't want that problem with my Garand at all!

 

[afrancke]

Re: Garand case length concern

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TacticalJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As far as brass life, well I know that all brass is eaten faster by semi auto rifles due to flinging them out, extractors biting into them, and so on.</div></div>

The Garand is in a league of its own with respect to caving in the necks on brass just after extraction. The op rod handle has a hump on it designed to push the extracted case forward and away from the rifle to 1 or 2 o'clock as it comes forward back into battery, and although that hump usually hits the base of the case, the neck can get hit by the bit of the handle that sticks out for the fingers to hook onto. When it does, the result is a giant dent in the neck that will require some careful negotiation with the expander ball to iron out!

Check the video here for a slow motion demonstration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1vKFgj7WhNo#t=41s

 

[jasonZ]

Re: Garand case length concern

Sweeet video! A PSL chews the crap out of the necks! I've never had any semi auto rifle that wasn't harder on brass than a bolt gun!