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A quick point-shooting question...

kellogg2185

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 13, 2009
34
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St. Louis, MO
So I have been reading some older books on combat shooting with the pistol, and came across an interesting way of training. A former NY Stakeout Unit officer used to cover the rear sight of his student's pistols with tape, to have them hone their instinctual shooting skills. Has anyone done this? Is it still an effective training method for close quarters, or is this horribly outdated? Thanks.
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

It depends: How does covering the rear sight with tape hone a skill?

Proper sight pictures will differ for different sighting configurations and different applications. There are sight pictures which do not rely on conscious focus on or alignment of the sights, or which entail only peripheral perception of the sights.
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

From what I understood, with the extremely close ranges that him and his men were engaging the "bad guys" in, trying to achieve a sight picture would take too much time. I was just curious as to whether this, or a different version was still taught or practiced at all is all. I only shoot for fun and while hunting so far, but I do read quite a bit on the various shooting "arts".
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

First off, I am not a trained professional and while I do not represent this as an acceptable method of training, I thought I'd share my experience when I was training to shoot a recurve instinctively. Shooting during the day, it was hard not to notice the arrow tip, hand placement, etc. One evening, I went out and set a flashlight about 5 feet away from the target shining on the bullseye. I grabbed my bow and started shooting from 20 yards and it reinforced in my mind that I did not need to reference my arrow tip, that my hand/eye coordination had "remembered" the required effort. If nothing else, it proved to me that I could just focus on the target. I've always thought this would be a good thing to practice with my .45 from 15' with the end of a glow stick for a target. However, it's just to damn cold here to go give it a try....
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

Good NPA and consistent execution of the fundamentals is extremely effective at short range. I have done drills with students, draw and fire at 3 yards, shooting with eyes closed: All A zone hits.

But I just don't see the utility of a technique which requires taping the rear sight - what's the point of doing that?
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

Instinctive shooting is done using hand/eye coordination. Sights are not involved. I found that for short range target engagements, my instinctive shooting skills were surprisingly good.

My technique was to extend my index finger alongside the firearm, parallel to the bore, and engage the trigger with my middle finger.

That way, I would point my index finger directly at the target, and most times, my POI would be within a couple of inches of my mind's-eye POA.

These days, I do not compete with handguns and do not own any. My HD strategy is deliberately impromptu, and involves shotguns.

If I ever need implement it, I would prefer to think, rather than react. I recognize that some time is lost, but I also intend what hesitation I have would be about employing lethal force, and never to have to hesitate to answer an accusation involving premeditation.

Greg
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

Many trainers in the FBI have used this technique to show that you can accurately shoot with and with out sights if you practice both ways. I have found that because I am cross dominant (left eye dominant righyt handedx) that I shoot better with both eyes open and focusing on the target only not the sights. I shoot a recurve instinctively and use the same technique. Doing this I can accurately shoot out to 20 yards on man sized targets, but I have to aim for small steels that far out! It is an effective technique for speed shooting at multiple targets!

I have definately found that it is significantly faster and just as accurate if you apply all the other fundamentals!

Good shooting!
Rick
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

With practice it will not take any more time to acquire your sights then to shoot “instinctively”. In order to accurately engage anything past 5 yards you will still need to use some form of reference point on the weapon it should be the front sight. Once in a while I get the chance to shoot with some former world champion USPSA shooters. A typical 20 yard 10” plate one shot draw for them is in the .8 seconds from the buzzer. It would take them the same amount of time either using the front sight post or just slinging it out there. The key to condensing the shooting solution is to develop enough muscle memory to enable your body to place the weapon between your dominant eye and your target in a reliable manner that enables sight acquisition. Being able to pick the front sight post up through your peripheral vision working from position 3 to 4 is the essential. Your body will do the rest to get the back sight in line with the front. Look through the rear sight, focus on the front sight and place it where you want the bullet to go. Repeat as necessary until the process is automatic. Do not wait until the sight picture is perfect before pressing the trigger. Pressing the trigger and final refinement of your sight picture happen at the same time.
As Greg eloquently put it, “I would prefer to think, rather than react” and to add to that thought. You must know where every single one of your’ bullets went.
It took me about 20 30 minute sessions of dry fire practice on the pro timer to get under 1 second one shot draws and then about 600 one shot draws with live ammo to get it.
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many trainers in the FBI have used this technique</div></div>Not since the early 1980s.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick 324</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shoot better with both eyes open and focusing on the target only not the sights... Doing this I can accurately shoot out to 20 yards on man sized targets,... It is an effective technique for speed shooting at multiple targets! I have definately found that it is significantly faster and just as accurate if you apply all the other fundamentals!!</div></div>News to me. Would you happen to have a video of how well it works on multiple targets at 20 yards?
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

A well rounded pistolero would do well to have both sighted fire and point shooting skills available to him. If competition is your game and goal, then do what the best at that game do. But if fighting with your pistol is what you are preparing for, then you should well understand the reality of what the fight may be. All gunfights require a balance between speed and accuracy; hitting while not getting hit. If initiative is on your side and the fight allows for stationary, sighted fire, or the distance or size of the available target demands it, then you better be able to deliver. If initiative is with your enemy, and the situation is such that you need to move as fast as you can to keep from getting shot, then you better have the skills to hit under those circumstances as well. This is where "point shooting" comes in.

For those training for the fight, what a world class competitor can do while standing still shooting at something that isn't moving or shooting back is of little interest.

The fight will be whatever the fight will be, we do not always get to choose.
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

I agree with Greg above, its more about hand eye coordination. In my own experience, the more familiar I am with a particular firearm the better I can instinctively point and shoot. I have a Browning buckmark 22 pistol that I can throw D sized batteries in the air and hit them, not once do i use the sights. I would say develop good, consistent fundamentals and practice them a lot and the instinctive shooting will come naturally
 
Re: A quick point-shooting question...

"Point Shooting" or "Instinctive Shooting" is great and really shines in the typical "combat" distances of 10 yards or less. At those distances that most typical personal defense shooting will take place & which generally consist of moving either away or sideways of a threat......a sight picture isn't needed to make a hit on man sized target & it's faster to than referencing your sights on the pistol.

In a gunfight, the person who gets a hit first, raises their chance of winning tremendously higher then being second.....
 
I found this interesting in my last pistol training class. At 10 yards or less you can pretty much keep the bullet on target as long as you track the front sight. He made us place the front sight on target, and align the rear sight off by the edge of the cutout. All shots were still Alpha hits. Hence learned from that experience, I track the front sight and if in a close quarter situation, I won't be hesitant to pull the trigger if I got the front sight center on the bad guy.